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Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

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  • David Waller
    I don t know off hand and it will certainly be different in each ordinariate. In the UK most will have worshipped as Anglicans but some will have earlier
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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      I don't know off hand and it will certainly be different in each ordinariate. In the UK most will have worshipped as Anglicans but some will have earlier backgrounds in other denominations. There have been a few unbaptised converts, but it is very early days and it has taken time to get established places and times for worship, find housing and stipends for priests etc. I am confident that area will grow. There are also lots of examples of diocesan catholics opting to worship with the ordinariate although they cannot join it. My own group worships in a church which is also used by a diocesan parish and a community of catholics of the Syro Malabar Rite. And, as the Syro Malabar rite is only offered fortnightly, they often join the ordinariate for mass on the other weeks! On the ground it is quite exciting; it is distinct and yet fully part of the wider catholic community. 

      I'm happy to share more - but cautious this may be straying off topic for this list?

      I guess it is going to take some years before we can really evaluate it all.



      Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
      From: Douglas Cowling
      Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 17:49
      To: Liturgy-Well-Done
      Reply To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
      July 2013

       

      From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

      It arises from a situation when a group of Christians who already share a degree of communion through baptism, now ask to come into full communion on the basis that they accept the faith as set forth in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the  accept the petrine ministry.


      On a practical level, what percentage of candidates to the ordinariate are non-Anglican?

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto


    • Lewis Whitaker
      .... give it time. It s early yet. On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:31 PM, David Waller wrote:
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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        .... give it time. It's early yet.


        On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 12:31 PM, David Waller <d.a.waller@...> wrote:

        ... those who have accepted the offer do not appear to regret doing so. But it really is rooted in Vatican 2 ecclesiology.
      • Douglas Cowling
        From: David Waller Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate - 12 July 2013 There are also lots of
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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          From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

          There are also lots of examples of diocesan catholics opting to worship with the ordinariate although they cannot join it. 

          How can you be a communicant in a rite and not be allowed to "join" (whatever that means)?  Why is there a prohibition and how is it enforced? Denying people communion?

          Doug Cowling
          Director of Music
          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
          Toronto

        • David Waller
          Sorry, maybe I haven t explained this very well. They can communicate and do; because all those in communion with the Bishop of Rome are in communion with each
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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            Sorry, maybe I haven't explained this very well. They can communicate and do; because all those in communion with the Bishop of Rome are in communion with each other. Eastern Rites and Latin Rite can receive from each other. Ordinariate is a use within the Latin Rite.

            The business about joining is about jurisdiction. Members of the Ordinariate are under the Jurisdiction of their Ordinary. Members of the local diocese are under the jurisdiction of the Diocesan Bishop. The Polish mission has its own jurisdiction. This determines who grants faculties, Marriage matters, admits candidates to holy orders etc. But all those jurisdictions are part of one church and in full communion with one another.

            Hope that clarifies things?

            Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
            From: Douglas Cowling
            Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 21:30
            To: Liturgy-Well-Done
            Reply To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
            July 2013

             

            From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

            There are also lots of examples of diocesan catholics opting to worship with the ordinariate although they cannot join it. 

            How can you be a communicant in a rite and not be allowed to "join" (whatever that means)?  Why is there a prohibition and how is it enforced? Denying people communion?

            Doug Cowling
            Director of Music
            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
            Toronto


          • wx5116
            An example would be myself, an Ordinariate member (clearly qualified because I came over from TEC) but because of geographic factors I go most Sundays to the
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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              An example would be myself, an Ordinariate member (clearly qualified because I came over from TEC) but because of geographic factors I go most Sundays to the TLM at a "regular" Latin Rite parish.  No question about receiving communion.
               
              David
               
              ---------------------------
              David Lewis
              Arlington VA USA
              dlewisaao@...
               
              In a message dated 7/15/2013 4:46:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, d.a.waller@... writes:


              Sorry, maybe I haven't explained this very well. They can communicate and do; because all those in communion with the Bishop of Rome are in communion with each other. Eastern Rites and Latin Rite can receive from each other. Ordinariate is a use within the Latin Rite.

              The business about joining is about jurisdiction. Members of the Ordinariate are under the Jurisdiction of their Ordinary. Members of the local diocese are under the jurisdict ion of the Diocesan Bishop. The Polish mission has its own jurisdiction. This determines who grants faculties, Marriage matters, admits candidates to holy orders etc. But all those jurisdictions are part of one church and in full communion with one another.

              Hope that clarifies things?

              Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
              From: Douglas Cowling
              Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 21:30
              To: Liturgy-Well-Done
              Reply To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
              July 2013

               

              From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

              There are also lots of examples of diocesan catholics opting to worship with the ordinariate although they cannot join it. 

              How can you be a communicant in a rite and not be allowed to "join" (whatever that means)?  Why is there a prohibition and how is it enforced? Denying people communion?

              Doug Cowling
              Director of Music
              St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
              Toronto


            • Douglas Cowling
              From: David Waller Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate - 12 July 2013 This determines who
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

                This determines who grants faculties, 


                Have any ordinate priests been given concessions to celebrate mass outside their parishes?  

                Doug Cowling
                Director of Music
                St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                Toronto

              • David Waller
                All of them. Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone. From: Douglas Cowling Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 22:12 To: Liturgy-Well-Done Reply To:
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                  All of them.  

                  Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
                  From: Douglas Cowling
                  Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 22:12
                  To: Liturgy-Well-Done
                  Reply To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
                  July 2013

                   

                  From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

                  This determines who grants faculties, 


                  Have any ordinate priests been given concessions to celebrate mass outside their parishes?  

                  Doug Cowling
                  Director of Music
                  St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  Toronto


                • Lewis Whitaker
                  Can they celebrate NO or EF masses, or are they only allowed Ordinariate Masses? On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Douglas Cowling
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                    Can they celebrate NO or EF masses, or are they only allowed "Ordinariate" Masses?




                    On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:


                    From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

                    This determines who grants faculties, 


                    Have any ordinate priests been given concessions to celebrate mass outside their parishes?  

                    Doug Cowling
                    Director of Music
                    St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                    Toronto




                  • Douglas Cowling
                    From: David Waller To: Liturgy-Well-Done Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: Lapsed Catholics can join
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                      From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                      To: Liturgy-Well-Done <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

                      All of them.


                      And can their wives accompany them?  I'm curious about the social dynamics.

                      Doug Cowling
                      Director of Music
                      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                      Toronto



                    • David Waller
                      They can celebrate the OF and EF of the Roman Rite and the Ordinariate Liturgy which is still being refined and will use Elizabethan English and contain some
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                        They can celebrate the OF and EF of the Roman Rite and the "Ordinariate Liturgy" which is still being refined and will use Elizabethan English and contain some Anglican texts.


                        Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
                        From: Lewis Whitaker
                        Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 22:17
                        To: Liturgy-L
                        Reply To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
                        July 2013

                         

                        Can they celebrate NO or EF masses, or are they only allowed "Ordinariate" Masses?




                        On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 5:12 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:


                        From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

                        This determines who grants faculties, 


                        Have any ordinate priests been given concessions to celebrate mass outside their parishes?  

                        Doug Cowling
                        Director of Music
                        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                        Toronto





                      • David Waller
                        Doug, I m not sure what you mean by this. In England there are more married diocesan priests than married ordinariate priests. They are married former
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                          Doug, 

                          I'm not sure what you mean by this. In England there are more married diocesan priests than married ordinariate priests. They are married former Anglicans ordained as diocesan priests since the 90s. 

                          It was not the dispensation from celibacy which was new in Anglicanorum Coetibus, it was the concept of groups coming together and a jurisdiction retaining elements of Anglican patrimony. The Communion Ecclesiology stuff etc I mentioned in an earlier post. 


                          Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
                          From: Douglas Cowling
                          Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 22:17
                          To: Liturgy-Well-Done
                          Reply To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
                          July 2013

                           

                          From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                          To: Liturgy-Well-Done <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

                          All of them.


                          And can their wives accompany them?  I'm curious about the social dynamics.

                          Doug Cowling
                          Director of Music
                          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                          Toronto




                        • Lewis Whitaker
                          Apparently Msgr Steenson runs a tight ship on his side of the Atlantic..... http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/09/you-report-american-anglican.html
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                            Apparently Msgr Steenson runs a tight ship on his side of the Atlantic.....

                            http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/09/you-report-american-anglican.html



                            On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 5:28 PM, David Waller <d.a.waller@...> wrote:


                            Doug, 

                            I'm not sure what you mean by this. In England there are more married diocesan priests than married ordinariate priests. They are married former Anglicans ordained as diocesan priests since the 90s. 

                            It was not the dispensation from celibacy which was new in Anglicanorum Coetibus, it was the concept of groups coming together and a jurisdiction retaining elements of Anglican patrimony. The Communion Ecclesiology stuff etc I mentioned in an earlier post. 


                            Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
                            From: Douglas Cowling
                            Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 22:17
                            To: Liturgy-Well-Done
                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
                            July 2013

                             

                            From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                            To: Liturgy-Well-Done <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

                            All of them.


                            And can their wives accompany them?  I'm curious about the social dynamics.

                            Doug Cowling
                            Director of Music
                            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                            Toronto







                          • David Waller
                            I can t comment on the situation in the US. But realistically, the EF is not going to have much demand in the Ordinariate because vernacular worship is part of
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                              I can't comment on the situation in the US.  But realistically, the EF is not going to have much demand in the Ordinariate because vernacular worship is part of the Anglican Patrimony. A contemporary language rite is available in the OF and a "traditional" language rite is also available in the Ordinariate. But Ordinariate priests are also encouraged to help as needed in the local dioceses and that could include places where the EF is celebrated.


                              Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
                              From: Lewis Whitaker
                              Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 22:42
                              To: Liturgy-L
                              Reply To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
                              July 2013

                               

                              Apparently Msgr Steenson runs a tight ship on his side of the Atlantic.....

                              http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/09/you-report-american-anglican.html



                              On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 5:28 PM, David Waller <d.a.waller@...> wrote:


                              Doug, 

                              I'm not sure what you mean by this. In England there are more married diocesan priests than married ordinariate priests. They are married former Anglicans ordained as diocesan priests since the 90s. 

                              It was not the dispensation from celibacy which was new in Anglicanorum Coetibus, it was the concept of groups coming together and a jurisdiction retaining elements of Anglican patrimony. The Communion Ecclesiology stuff etc I mentioned in an earlier post. 


                              Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
                              From: Douglas Cowling
                              Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 22:17
                              To: Liturgy-Well-Done
                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
                              July 2013

                               

                              From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                              To: Liturgy-Well-Done <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

                              All of them.


                              And can their wives accompany them?  I'm curious about the social dynamics.

                              Doug Cowling
                              Director of Music
                              St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                              Toronto








                            • wx5116
                              They very definitely have been given such faculties in some cases. And non-Ordinariate priests in some cases have been given faculties to say Anglican Use
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                                They very definitely have been given such faculties in some cases.  And non-Ordinariate priests in some cases have been given faculties to say Anglican Use Masses.
                                 
                                ---------------------------
                                David Lewis
                                Arlington VA USA
                                dlewisaao@...
                                 
                                In a message dated 7/15/2013 5:12:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cowling.douglas@... writes:


                                From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

                                This determines who grants faculties, 


                                Have any ordinate priests been given concessions to celebrate mass outside their parishes?  

                                Doug Cowling
                                Director of Music
                                St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                Toronto

                              • wx5116
                                That has been resolved. The pastor at the Ordinariate parish simply celebrates a LM on one weekday morning at a nearby Latin Rite church, as part of their
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                                  That has been resolved.  The pastor at the Ordinariate parish simply celebrates a LM on one weekday morning at a nearby Latin Rite church, as part of their parish's rota but also listed on the Ordinariate parish's schedule.
                                   
                                  ---------------------------
                                  David Lewis
                                  Arlington VA USA
                                  dlewisaao@...
                                   
                                  In a message dated 7/15/2013 5:42:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lhwhitaker@... writes:


                                  Apparently Msgr Steenson runs a tight ship on his side of the Atlantic.....

                                  http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/09/you-report-american-anglican.html



                                  On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 5:28 PM, David Waller <d.a.waller@...> wrote:


                                  Doug, 

                                  I'm not sure what you mean by this. In England there are more married diocesan priests than married ordinariate priests. They are married former Anglicans ordained as diocesan priests since the 90s. 

                                  It was not the dispensation from celibacy which was new in Anglicanorum Coetibus, it was the concept of groups coming together and a jurisdiction retaining elements of Anglican patrimony. The Communion Ecclesiology stuff etc I mentioned in an earlier post. 


                                  Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
                                  From: Douglas Cowling
                                  Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 22:17
                                  To: Liturgy-Well-Done
                                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
                                  July 2013

                                   

                                  From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                                  To: Liturgy-Well-Done <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

                                  All of them.


                                  And can their wives accompany them?  I'm curious about the social dynamics.

                                  Doug Cowling
                                  Director of Music
                                  St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                  Toronto







                                • wx5116
                                  Your bottom sentence explains it all. See my example cited in update to the old news that Lew had cited. And there are many of us in the Ordinariate who
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jul 15, 2013
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                                    Your bottom sentence explains it all.  See my example cited in update to the "old news" that Lew had cited.
                                     
                                    And there are many of us in the Ordinariate who happen to find the TLM, as well as the Anglican Use, particularly edifying to our souls.
                                     
                                    David
                                     
                                    ---------------------------
                                    David Lewis
                                    Arlington VA USA
                                    dlewisaao@...
                                     
                                    In a message dated 7/15/2013 5:51:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, d.a.waller@... writes:


                                    I can't comment on the situation in the US.  But realistically, the EF is not going to have much demand in the Ordinariate because vernacular worship is part of the Anglican Patrimony. A contemporary language rite is available in the OF and a "traditional" language rite is also available in the Ordinariate. But Ordinariate priests are also encouraged to help as needed in the local dioceses and that could include places where the EF is celebrated.


                                    Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
                                    From: Lewis Whitaker
                                    Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 22:42
                                    To: Liturgy-L
                                    Reply To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
                                    July 2013

                                     

                                    Apparently Msgr Steenson runs a tight ship on his side of the Atlantic.....

                                    http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/09/you-report-american-anglican.html



                                    On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 5:28 PM, David Waller <d.a.waller@...> wrote:


                                    Doug, 

                                    I'm not sure what you mean by this. In England there are more married diocesan priests than married ordinariate priests. They are married former Anglicans ordained as diocesan priests since the 90s. 

                                    It was not the dispensation from celibacy which was new in Anglicanorum Coetibus, it was the concept of groups coming together and a jurisdiction retaining elements of Anglican patrimony. The Communion Ecclesiology stuff etc I mentioned in an earlier post. 


                                    Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
                                    From: Douglas Cowling
                                    Sent: Monday, 15 July 2013 22:17
                                    To: Liturgy-Well-Done
                                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12
                                    July 2013

                                     

                                    From: David Waller <d.a.waller@...>
                                    To: Liturgy-Well-Done <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Tablet: "Lapsed Catholics can join ordinariate" - 12 July 2013

                                    All of them.


                                    And can their wives accompany them?  I'm curious about the social dynamics.

                                    Doug Cowling
                                    Director of Music
                                    St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                    Toronto








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