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Re: [liturgy-l] Vidi Aquam question

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  • Sandford MacLean
    It s actually very common. It may have been the translation in the English Missal, but I don t have mine at hand. Sandford MacLean Sent from my iPhone
    Message 1 of 10 , May 26, 2013
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      It's actually very common.  It may have been the translation in the English Missal, but I don't have mine at hand.

      Sandford MacLean

      Sent from my iPhone

      On May 26, 2013, at 10:42, dlewisaao@... wrote:

       

      Has anyone every heard Vidi Aquam translated as "I beheld water ..." rather than "I saw water ..."?
       
      I've encountered said different translation once in a liturgical setting and wonder whether it is quirky or (which would surprise me) in wider use.
       
      David
       
      ---------------------------
      David Lewis
      Arlington VA USA
      dlewisaao@...

    • Douglas Cowling
      From: Subject: [liturgy-l] Vidi Aquam question Has anyone every heard Vidi Aquam translated as I beheld water ... rather than I saw
      Message 2 of 10 , May 26, 2013
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        Subject: [liturgy-l] Vidi Aquam question

        Has anyone every heard Vidi Aquam translated as "I beheld water ..." rather than "I saw water ..."?


        It is the text adapted to melismatic plainsong used as a norm in hard-core Anglo-Catholic parishes. It came into use in the 1920's when the music of the Roman rite was adapted into English in a rather fine series, "Anglo-Catholic Choir Books," by Francis Burgess. It was designed to replace whimsical Tractarian/high church music and impose a "correctness" on anglo-catholic liturgies. As the number of nose-bleed parishes who have the Asperges every Sunday has declined so has the use of the "I beheld water ..."  St. Mary Magdalene's, Toronto, still sings it congregationally in Easter season. I expect Ascension in Chicago and St. Clement's, Philadelphia, do as well.

        Doug Cowling
        Director of Music
        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        Toronto

      • Sean W. Reed
        That is the rendering we long have used. Sent from my iPhone
        Message 3 of 10 , May 26, 2013
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          That is the rendering we long have used.

          Sent from my iPhone

          On May 26, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

           

          Subject: [liturgy-l] Vidi Aquam question

          Has anyone every heard Vidi Aquam translated as "I beheld water ..." rather than "I saw water ..."?


          It is the text adapted to melismatic plainsong used as a norm in hard-core Anglo-Catholic parishes. It came into use in the 1920's when the music of the Roman rite was adapted into English in a rather fine series, "Anglo-Catholic Choir Books," by Francis Burgess. It was designed to replace whimsical Tractarian/high church music and impose a "correctness" on anglo-catholic liturgies. As the number of nose-bleed parishes who have the Asperges every Sunday has declined so has the use of the "I beheld water ..."  St. Mary Magdalene's, Toronto, still sings it congregationally in Easter season. I expect Ascension in Chicago and St. Clement's, Philadelphia, do as well.

          Doug Cowling
          Director of Music
          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
          Toronto

        • Scott Knitter
          On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Douglas Cowling
          Message 4 of 10 , May 26, 2013
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            On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
            I expect Ascension in Chicago and St. Clement's, Philadelphia, do as well.

            They (S. Clement's) may, but we (Ascension) don't. We have the sprinkling during the opening hymn but none of the texts, except on Easter Day when Vidi aquam is chanted in Latin by the schola.

            "I beheld water" sounds like it's of the genre of English translations that strive to keep the same syllabic stress or at least number of syllables as the Latin. Likewise there's "Queen of the heavens, we hail you" for Ave Regina caelorum, and "Mary, we hail you, Mother and Queen compassionate" for "Salve Regina, Mater misericordiae."


            --
            Scott R. Knitter
            Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
          • wx5116
            You are indeed correct - it is the translation in the English Missal. David ... David Lewis Arlington VA USA dlewisaao@aol.com In a message dated 5/26/2013
            Message 5 of 10 , May 26, 2013
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              You are indeed correct - it is the translation in the English Missal.
               
              David
               
              ---------------------------
              David Lewis
              Arlington VA USA
              dlewisaao@...
               
              In a message dated 5/26/2013 12:31:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, MacLean@... writes:


              It's actually very common.  It may have been the translation in the English Missal, but I don't have mine at hand.

              Sandford MacLean

              Sent from my iPhone

              On May 26, 2013, at 10:42, dlewisaao@... wrote:

               

              Has anyone every heard Vidi Aquam translated as "I beheld water ..." rather than "I saw water ..."?
               
              I've encountered said different translation once in a liturgical setting and wonder whether it is quirky or (which would surprise me) in wider use.
               
              David
               
              ---------------------------
              David Lewis
              Arlington VA USA
              dlewisaao@...

            • wx5116
              I ve never heard it at S Clement s. My former parish, St Paul s K Street, did not use it. David ... David Lewis Arlington VA USA dlewisaao@aol.com In a
              Message 6 of 10 , May 26, 2013
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                I've never heard it at S Clement's.  My former parish, St Paul's K Street, did not use it.
                 
                David
                 
                ---------------------------
                David Lewis
                Arlington VA USA
                dlewisaao@...
                 
                In a message dated 5/26/2013 1:09:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cowling.douglas@... writes:


                Subject: [liturgy-l] Vidi Aquam question

                Has anyone every heard Vidi Aquam translated as "I beheld water ..." rather than "I saw water ..."?


                It is the text adapted to melismatic plainsong used as a norm in hard-core Anglo-Catholic parishes. It came into use in the 1920's when the music of the Roman rite was adapted into English in a rather fine series, "Anglo-Catholic Choir Books," by Francis Burgess. It was designed to replace whimsical Tractarian/high church music and impose a "correctness" on anglo-catholic liturgies. As the number of nose-bleed parishes who have the Asperges every Sunday has declined so has the use of the "I beh eld water ..."  St. Mary Magdalene's, Toronto, still sings it congregationally in Easter season. I expect Ascension in Chicago and St. Clement's, Philadelphia, do as well.

                Doug Cowling
                Director of Music
                St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                Toronto

              • John Botari
                That s the translation of the *Vidi Aquam *that s used in Part I of *The English Gradual, *edited by Francis Burgess (the red book). This is available very
                Message 7 of 10 , May 26, 2013
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                  That's the translation of the Vidi Aquam that's used in Part I of The English Gradual, edited by Francis Burgess (the red book).  This is available very widely, and is in use in many Anglo-Catholic parishes.  As such, I don't think that it would be considered at all rare or quirky.
                    John Botari
                    All Saints' (Anglican) Church
                    Saskatoon  Saskatchewan   CANADA
                  On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 8:42 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
                   

                  Has anyone every heard Vidi Aquam translated as "I beheld water ..." rather than "I saw water ..."?
                   
                  I've encountered said different translation once in a liturgical setting and wonder whether it is quirky or (which would surprise me) in wider use.
                   
                  David
                   
                  ---------------------------
                  David Lewis
                  Arlington VA USA
                  dlewisaao@...


                • wx5116
                  The info imparted has been helpful and appreciated. David ... David Lewis Arlington VA USA dlewisaao@aol.com In a message dated 5/26/2013 3:40:18 P.M. Eastern
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 26, 2013
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                    The info imparted has been helpful and appreciated.
                     
                    David
                     
                    ---------------------------
                    David Lewis
                    Arlington VA USA
                    dlewisaao@...
                     
                    In a message dated 5/26/2013 3:40:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, botarij@... writes:


                    That's the translation of the Vidi Aquam that's used in Part I of The English Gradual, edited by Francis Burgess (the red book).  This is available very widely, and is in use in many Anglo-Catholic parishes.  As such, I don't think that it would be considered at all rare or quirky.
                      John Botari
                      All Saints' (Anglican) Church
                      Saskatoon  Saskatchewan   CANADA
                    On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 8:42 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
                     

                    Has anyone every heard Vidi Aquam translated as "I beheld water ..." rather than "I saw water ..."?
                     
                    I've encountered said different translation once in a liturgical setting and wonder whether it is quirky or (which would surprise me) in wider use.
                     
                    David
                     
                    ---------------------------
                    David Lewis
                    Arlington VA USA
                    dlewisaao@...


                  • Geoff M
                    My experience of parishes singing the *Vidi aquam *in `Rite I` English translation is, naturally, limited. That said, it s the only rendering I ve actually
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 26, 2013
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                      My experience of parishes singing the Vidi aquam in `Rite I` English translation is, naturally, limited. That said, it's the only rendering I've actually heard in Anglo-Catholic churches, although RC missals for the laity always seem to have "saw" in the parallel English text, which would seem to fit Scott's idea about the chant: "beheld" coming from pastoral music experience, and "saw" being favoured for conveying the meaning in print.

                      I would have thought S. Clement's sang it in Latin, but under the nouvelle régime one can take nothing for granted, alas.
                      G


                      On Sun, May 26, 2013 at 3:08 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
                       

                      You are indeed correct - it is the translation in the English Missal.
                       
                      David
                       
                      ---------------------------
                      David Lewis
                      Arlington VA USA
                      dlewisaao@...
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