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Pope at the Ambo

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  • Douglas Cowling
    Much is being made of the new pope s continuing habit of preaching from the ambo rather than from his throne/chair. It appears that his style is presbyteral
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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      Much is being made of the new pope's continuing habit of preaching from
      the ambo rather than from his throne/chair. It appears that his style is
      presbyteral rather than episcopal.

      Question: I was under the impression that sub-apostolic bishops always
      preached sitting on their chair as the "sedes sapientiae." When did that
      custom disappear for all bishops except Rome's?

      I was pleasantly surprised when I visited wild and woolly St. Gregory of
      Nyssa in SF (Anglican) where the congregation sits in a U for the Liturgy
      of the Word and the presider preaches sitting.

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto
    • wx5116
      I ve rarely seen either a Catholic or Episcopal bishop preach sitting - usually preaching from the ambo. The latest was four days ago when the Bp of
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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        I've rarely seen either a Catholic or Episcopal bishop preach sitting - usually preaching from the ambo.  The latest was four days ago when the Bp of Arlington preached from the ambo rather than from his cathedral throne.
         
        David
         
        ---------------------------
        David Lewis
        Arlington VA USA
        dlewisaao@...
         
        In a message dated 3/23/2013 8:16:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cowling.douglas@... writes:
        Much is being made of the new pope's continuing habit of preaching from
        the ambo rather than from his throne/chair. It appears that his style is
        presbyteral rather than episcopal.

        Question: I was under the impression that sub-apostolic bishops always
        preached sitting on their chair as the "sedes sapientiae."  When did that
        custom disappear for all bishops except Rome's?

        I was pleasantly surprised when I visited wild and woolly St. Gregory of
        Nyssa in SF (Anglican) where the congregation sits in a U for the Liturgy
        of the Word and the presider preaches sitting.

        Doug Cowling
        Director of Music
        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        Toronto





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      • David J Strang
        Re: preaching from the chair.   This may have to do with the orthopedic status and age of the preacher rather than his/her liturgical point of view.   For
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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          Re: preaching from the chair.
           
          This may have to do with the orthopedic status and age of the preacher rather than his/her liturgical point of view.
           
          For example, I gave up lecturing standing at a podium in my profession [physician/dermatologist] to resident physicians and medical
          students in 1991 after two total hip replacements.  It seems to work quite well.
           
          David Strang.

          From: "dlewisaao@..." <dlewisaao@...>
          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 10:55 AM
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pope at the Ambo
           
          I've rarely seen either a Catholic or Episcopal bishop preach sitting - usually preaching from the ambo.  The latest was four days ago when the Bp of Arlington preached from the ambo rather than from his cathedral throne.
           
          David
           
          ---------------------------
          David Lewis
          Arlington VA USA
          dlewisaao@...
           
          In a message dated 3/23/2013 8:16:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cowling.douglas@... writes:
          Much is being made of the new pope's continuing habit of preaching from
          the ambo rather than from his throne/chair. It appears that his style is
          presbyteral rather than episcopal.

          Question: I was under the impression that sub-apostolic bishops always
          preached sitting on their chair as the "sedes sapientiae."  When did that
          custom disappear for all bishops except Rome's?

          I was pleasantly surprised when I visited wild and woolly St. Gregory of
          Nyssa in SF (Anglican) where the congregation sits in a U for the Liturgy
          of the Word and the presider preaches sitting.

          Doug Cowling
          Director of Music
          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
          Toronto





          ------------------------------------

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        • Robert White
          Re: [liturgy-l] Pope at the Ambo Hello David, Saturday, March 23, 2013, 12:59:55 PM, you wrote: For example, I gave up lecturing standing at a podium in my
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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            Re: [liturgy-l] Pope at the Ambo Hello David,

            Saturday, March 23, 2013, 12:59:55 PM, you wrote:


            For example, I gave up lecturing standing at a podium in my profession [physician/dermatologist] to resident physicians and medical
            students in 1991 after two total hip replacements. It seems to work quite well.


            The same for the last 7 (out of 10) weeks of recovering from a fractured hip socket. I'll be back on my feet tomorrow, but I rather like preaching from a chair. The first Sunday in the chair (with wheels), I did remark that often Jesus sat to preach/teach.

            -- 
            Best regards,
             Robert                            
            mailto:whiteslists@...
          • David J Strang
             I am trying to keep an open mind about the Francis I pontificate since it is all so new.   However, I must confess that I was much more comfortable with
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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               I am trying to keep an open mind about the Francis I pontificate since it is all so new.
               
              However, I must confess that I was much more comfortable with Benedict XIV even
              early on in his pontificate, because his liturgical thoughts were already quite puplic from
              his books.  I happened to agree with Benedict by and large.  I liked his, shall I say, high
              church vestmenture, his liturgical interpretation of Vatican-2, and eventually his stressing
              the continuity of the Roman Rite from the Extraordinary Form through the current Ordinary
              Form.
               
              I even, [gasp!] grew to like his innovative clustering of the candles at the Saint Peter's
              Papal Altar.
               
              I do have my problems with a few traditional RC moral theological teachings, but that is a
              different story, and, frankly, from what has been made public, so far, there appears to be very
              little difference, if any, between Francis I and Benedict XIV in this area.
               
              I wish Francis I well, and I hope there is very little of the liturgical attitude of my Reformed
              Protestant French ancestors in him!
               
               
              David Strang.
               
               
               

               


               
            • David J Strang
              Robert -   Thank heaven for modern hip surgery.  A fractured/worn out hip used to be a ticket to the graveyard only 35 years ago.   David Strang.
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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                Robert -
                 
                Thank heaven for modern hip surgery.  A fractured/worn out hip used to be a ticket to the graveyard only
                35 years ago.
                 
                David Strang.

                From: Robert White <whiteslists@...>
                To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2013 1:26 PM
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pope at the Ambo
                 
                Hello David,

                Saturday, March 23, 2013, 12:59:55 PM, you wrote:


                For example, I gave up lecturing standing at a podium in my profession [physician/dermatologist] to resident physicians and medical
                students in 1991 after two total hip replacements. It seems to work quite well.
                The same for the last 7 (out of 10) weeks of recovering from a fractured hip socket. I'll be back on my feet tomorrow, but I rather like preaching from a chair. The first Sunday in the chair (with wheels), I did remark that often Jesus sat to preach/teach.

                -- 
                Best regards,
                 Robert                            
                mailto:whiteslists@...
              • Jim .
                I am trying to keep an open mind about the Francis I pontificate since it is all so new. .....agreed...but only time will tell; and know one on this Earth
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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                  "I am trying to keep an open mind about the Francis I pontificate since it is all so new."
                   
                  .....agreed...but only time will tell; and know one on this Earth knows how much time Francis has.
                   
                  I was very interested to learn that some have said that Francis was the runner-up when B-16 was chosen.
                  Eight years may have made a great deal of difference.
                   
                   


                   


                   

                  To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                  From: davidjstrang@...
                  Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 10:42:06 -0700
                  Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: [liturgy-l Comfort.

                   
                   I am trying to keep an open mind about the Francis I pontificate since it is all so new.
                   
                  However, I must confess that I was much more comfortable with Benedict XIV even
                  early on in his pontificate, because his liturgical thoughts were already quite puplic from
                  his books.  I happened to agree with Benedict by and large.  I liked his, shall I say, high
                  church vestmenture, his liturgical interpretation of Vatican-2, and eventually his stressing
                  the continuity of the Roman Rite from the Extraordinary Form through the current Ordinary
                  Form.
                   
                  I even, [gasp!] grew to like his innovative clustering of the candles at the Saint Peter's
                  Papal Altar.
                   
                  I do have my problems with a few traditional RC moral theological teachings, but that is a
                  different story, and, frankly, from what has been made public, so far, there appears to be very
                  little difference, if any, between Francis I and Benedict XIV in this area.
                   
                  I wish Francis I well, and I hope there is very little of the liturgical attitude of my Reformed
                  Protestant French ancestors in him!
                   
                   
                  David Strang.
                   
                   
                   

                   


                   


                • Lewis Whitaker
                  I thought the conclave was secret, under penalty of excommunication?
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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                    I thought the conclave was secret, under penalty of excommunication?




                    On Mar 23, 2013, at 5:58 PM, "Jim ." <jim.meriden@...> wrote:

                    "I am trying to keep an open mind about the Francis I pontificate since it is all so new."
                     
                    .....agreed...but only time will tell; and know one on this Earth knows how much time Francis has.
                     
                    I was very interested to learn that some have said that Francis was the runner-up when B-16 was chosen.
                    Eight years may have made a great deal of difference.
                     
                     


                     


                     

                    To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                    From: davidjstrang@...
                    Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2013 10:42:06 -0700
                    Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: [liturgy-l Comfort.

                     
                     I am trying to keep an open mind about the Francis I pontificate since it is all so new.
                     
                    However, I must confess that I was much more comfortable with Benedict XIV even
                    early on in his pontificate, because his liturgical thoughts were already quite puplic from
                    his books.  I happened to agree with Benedict by and large.  I liked his, shall I say, high
                    church vestmenture, his liturgical interpretation of Vatican-2, and eventually his stressing
                    the continuity of the Roman Rite from the Extraordinary Form through the current Ordinary
                    Form.
                     
                    I even, [gasp!] grew to like his innovative clustering of the candles at the Saint Peter's
                    Papal Altar.
                     
                    I do have my problems with a few traditional RC moral theological teachings, but that is a
                    different story, and, frankly, from what has been made public, so far, there appears to be very
                    little difference, if any, between Francis I and Benedict XIV in this area.
                     
                    I wish Francis I well, and I hope there is very little of the liturgical attitude of my Reformed
                    Protestant French ancestors in him!
                     
                     
                    David Strang.
                     
                     
                     

                     


                     


                  • Sean W. Reed
                    I m not sure where anyone might develop the idea that the moral teachings of Francis would be any different from Benedict XVI or Paul VI for that matter. It
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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                      I'm not sure where anyone might develop the idea that the moral teachings of Francis would be any different from Benedict XVI or Paul VI for that matter.

                      It just doesn't change at the whim of the current Successor of Peter- nor at the result of popular vote.

                      I personally like what I have seen thus far, the papacy is about more than just - gasp- liturgy!

                      His tastes don't echo mine - but I'm not hung up with that - it doesn't change our Parrish's liturgical standards.

                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:42 PM, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                      > I do have my problems with a few traditional RC moral theological teachings, but that is a
                      > different story, and, frankly, from what has been made public, so far, there appears to be very
                      > little difference, if any, between Francis I and Benedict XIV in this area.
                    • Douglas Cowling
                      From: Lewis Whitaker Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: [liturgy-l Comfort. I thought the conclave was secret, under penalty of
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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                        From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: [liturgy-l Comfort.

                        I thought the conclave was secret, under penalty of excommunication?


                        That only applies to i stranieri. The Italian cardinals have been blabbing to the Italian press ever since they got out.  

                        The Americans were evidently deeply pissed off that their daily press conferences before the conclave had to be cancelled because there were press leaks that they were blamed for. They of course were not the source. One American groused, "Why do the Americans have to do penance for the Italians?"

                        It's said that the Curia knows the balloting numbers within 15 minutes each scrutiny. But then the Italians live and die for conspiracies.

                        Doug Cowling
                        Director of Music
                        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                        Toronto





                      • Lewis Whitaker
                        Do you really think Pius IX and Paul VI would agree on much? Let s not pretend there aren t liberal or conservative popes.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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                          Do you really think Pius IX and Paul VI would agree on much? Let's not pretend there aren't liberal or conservative popes.

                          On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Sean W. Reed <anglican@...> wrote:
                          I'm not sure where anyone might develop the idea that the moral teachings of Francis would be any different from Benedict XVI or Paul VI for that matter.

                          It just doesn't change at the whim of the current Successor of Peter- nor at the result of popular vote.

                          I personally like what I have seen thus far, the papacy is about more than just -  gasp- liturgy!

                          His tastes don't echo mine - but I'm not hung up with that - it doesn't change our Parrish's liturgical standards.

                          Sent from my iPhone

                          On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:42 PM, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                          > I do have my problems with a few traditional RC moral theological teachings, but that is a
                          > different story, and, frankly, from what has been made public, so far, there appears to be very
                          > little difference, if any, between Francis I and Benedict XIV in this area.


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                        • Sean W. Reed
                          I don t think the labels liberal and conservative fit the papacy at all. Sent from my iPhone
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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                            I don't think the labels liberal and conservative fit the papacy at all.

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On Mar 23, 2013, at 6:45 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

                             

                            Do you really think Pius IX and Paul VI would agree on much? Let's not pretend there aren't liberal or conservative popes.

                            On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Sean W. Reed <anglican@...> wrote:
                            I'm not sure where anyone might develop the idea that the moral teachings of Francis would be any different from Benedict XVI or Paul VI for that matter.

                            It just doesn't change at the whim of the current Successor of Peter- nor at the result of popular vote.

                            I personally like what I have seen thus far, the papacy is about more than just -  gasp- liturgy!

                            His tastes don't echo mine - but I'm not hung up with that - it doesn't change our Parrish's liturgical standards.

                            Sent from my iPhone

                            On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:42 PM, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                            > I do have my problems with a few traditional RC moral theological teachings, but that is a
                            > different story, and, frankly, from what has been made public, so far, there appears to be very
                            > little difference, if any, between Francis I and Benedict XIV in this area.


                            ------------------------------------

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                          • Lewis Whitaker
                            That wasn t my question.
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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                              That wasn't my question.

                              On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 7:47 PM, Sean W. Reed <anglican@...> wrote:


                              I don't think the labels liberal and conservative fit the papacy at all.

                              Sent from my iPhone

                              On Mar 23, 2013, at 6:45 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

                               

                              Do you really think Pius IX and Paul VI would agree on much? Let's not pretend there aren't liberal or conservative popes.

                              On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Sean W. Reed <anglican@...> wrote:
                              I'm not sure where anyone might develop the idea that the moral teachings of Francis would be any different from Benedict XVI or Paul VI for that matter.

                              It just doesn't change at the whim of the current Successor of Peter- nor at the result of popular vote.

                              I personally like what I have seen thus far, the papacy is about more than just -  gasp- liturgy!

                              His tastes don't echo mine - but I'm not hung up with that - it doesn't change our Parrish's liturgical standards.

                              Sent from my iPhone

                              On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:42 PM, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                              > I do have my problems with a few traditional RC moral theological teachings, but that is a
                              > different story, and, frankly, from what has been made public, so far, there appears to be very
                              > little difference, if any, between Francis I and Benedict XIV in this area.


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                            • wx5116
                              Others have written that there will be a short honeymoon when those who are interested in the corporal works of mercy discover that such will require financial
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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                                Others have written that there will be a short honeymoon when those who are interested in the corporal works of mercy discover that such will require financial giving to the Church that comes much closer to what many Protestants are used to giving, not to mention an assumption that such works come as an extension of the apostolic faith rather than as a substitute for same.
                                 
                                Something like going for the whole thing ...
                                 
                                David
                                 
                                ---------------------------
                                David Lewis
                                Arlington VA USA
                                dlewisaao@...
                                 
                                In a message dated 3/23/2013 7:08:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, anglican@... writes:
                                I'm not sure where anyone might develop the idea that the moral teachings of Francis would be any different from Benedict XVI or Paul VI for that matter.

                                It just doesn't change at the whim of the current Successor of Peter- nor at the result of popular vote.

                                I personally like what I have seen thus far, the papacy is about more than just -  gasp- liturgy!

                                His tastes don't echo mine - but I'm not hung up with that - it doesn't change our Parrish's liturgical standards.

                                Sent from my iPhone

                                On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:42 PM, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                                > I do have my problems with a few traditional RC moral theological teachings, but that is a
                                > different story, and, frankly, from what has been made public, so far, there appears to be very
                                > little difference, if any, between Francis I and Benedict XIV in this area.


                                ------------------------------------

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                              • Lewis Whitaker
                                I have absolutely no idea what this means...... Lew
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 23, 2013
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                                  I have absolutely no idea what this means......

                                  Lew


                                  On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 8:59 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:


                                  Others have written that there will be a short honeymoon when those who are interested in the corporal works of mercy discover that such will require financial giving to the Church that comes much closer to what many Protestants are used to giving, not to mention an assumption that such works come as an extension of the apostolic faith rather than as a substitute for same.
                                   
                                  Something like going for the whole thing ...
                                   
                                  David
                                   
                                  ---------------------------
                                  David Lewis
                                  Arlington VA USA
                                  dlewisaao@...

                                   
                                  In a message dated 3/23/2013 7:08:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, anglican@... writes:
                                  I'm not sure where anyone might develop the idea that the moral teachings of Francis would be any different from Benedict XVI or Paul VI for that matter.

                                  It just doesn't change at the whim of the current Successor of Peter- nor at the result of popular vote.

                                  I personally like what I have seen thus far, the papacy is about more than just -  gasp- liturgy!

                                  His tastes don't echo mine - but I'm not hung up with that - it doesn't change our Parrish's liturgical standards.

                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                  On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:42 PM, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                                  > I do have my problems with a few traditional RC moral theological teachings, but that is a
                                  > different story, and, frankly, from what has been made public, so far, there appears to be very
                                  > little difference, if any, between Francis I and Benedict XIV in this area.


                                  ------------------------------------

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                                • Frank Senn
                                  Sure you do.  It means that the honeymoon will be over as soon as the press and the public discover that Pope Francis s social ministry does not mean an
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Mar 24, 2013
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                                    Sure you do.  It means that the honeymoon will be over as soon as the press and the public discover that Pope Francis's social ministry does not mean an overturning of the established teachings of the Catholic Church, especially in moral theology.  In the old papal coronations, didn't someone kneel before the pope in the entrance procession three times and say, "Holy father, the glory of the world is fleeting?"  Sancte pater, sic transit gloria mundi.

                                    --- On Sat, 3/23/13, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

                                    From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: [liturgy-l Comfort.
                                    To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Saturday, March 23, 2013, 9:26 PM

                                     

                                    I have absolutely no idea what this means......

                                    Lew


                                    On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 8:59 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:


                                    Others have written that there will be a short honeymoon when those who are interested in the corporal works of mercy discover that such will require financial giving to the Church that comes much closer to what many Protestants are used to giving, not to mention an assumption that such works come as an extension of the apostolic faith rather than as a substitute for same.
                                     
                                    Something like going for the whole thing ...
                                     
                                    David
                                     
                                    ---------------------------
                                    David Lewis
                                    Arlington VA USA
                                    dlewisaao@...

                                     
                                    In a message dated 3/23/2013 7:08:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, anglican@... writes:
                                    I'm not sure where anyone might develop the idea that the moral teachings of Francis would be any different from Benedict XVI or Paul VI for that matter.

                                    It just doesn't change at the whim of the current Successor of Peter- nor at the result of popular vote.

                                    I personally like what I have seen thus far, the papacy is about more than just -  gasp- liturgy!

                                    His tastes don't echo mine - but I'm not hung up with that - it doesn't change our Parrish's liturgical standards.

                                    Sent from my iPhone

                                    On Mar 23, 2013, at 12:42 PM, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                                    > I do have my problems with a few traditional RC moral theological teachings, but that is a
                                    > different story, and, frankly, from what has been made public, so far, there appears to be very
                                    > little difference, if any, between Francis I and Benedict XIV in this area.


                                    ------------------------------------

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