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Re: [liturgy-l] Curiosity

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  • Douglas Cowling
    From: Robert White Subject: [liturgy-l] Curiosity Why is it that it seems to be the Episcopalian/Anglican types on the list who are
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 14, 2013
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      From: Robert White <whiteslists@...>
      Subject: [liturgy-l] Curiosity

      Why is it that it seems to be the Episcopalian/Anglican types on the list who are most curious about, and critical of, the various papal trappings?


      Fashion is de fide for Anglicans!

      Remember, the new red high mass set of St. Mary the Virgin, Times Square, was featured on the front page of the NY Times FASHION section.

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto

    • wx5116
      Oh, the pumpkin set (which is what it really looks like - and I ve seen it very much up close plus am aware that it is really used as a gold set, at least on
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 14, 2013
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        Oh, the pumpkin set (which is what it really looks like - and I've seen it very much up close plus am aware that it is really used as a gold set, at least on the Ascension Day when I was there ...)
         
        David
         
        ---------------------------
        David Lewis
        Arlington VA USA
        dlewisaao@...
         
        In a message dated 3/14/2013 9:51:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cowling.douglas@... writes:


        From: Robert White <whiteslists@...>
        Subject: [liturgy-l] Curiosity

        Why is it that it seems to be the Episcopalian/Anglican types on the list who are most curious about, and critical of, the various papal trappings?


        Fashion is de fide for Anglicans!

        Remember, the new red high mass set of St. Mary the Virgin, Times Square, was featured on the front page of the NY Times F ASHION section.

        Doug Cowling
        Director of Music
        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        Toronto

      • Lewis Whitaker
        http://gracevestments.com/press.html
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 14, 2013
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          http://gracevestments.com/press.html


          On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:21 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:


          Oh, the pumpkin set (which is what it really looks like - and I've seen it very much up close plus am aware that it is really used as a gold set, at least on the Ascension Day when I was there ...)
           
          David
           
          ---------------------------
          David Lewis
          Arlington VA USA
          dlewisaao@...
           
          In a message dated 3/14/2013 9:51:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cowling.douglas@... writes:


          From: Robert White <whiteslists@...>
          Subject: [liturgy-l] Curiosity

          Why is it that it seems to be the Episcopalian/Anglican types on the list who are most curious about, and critical of, the various papal trappings?


          Fashion is de fide for Anglicans!

          Remember, the new red high mass set of St. Mary the Virgin, Times Square, was featured on the front page of the NY Times F ASHION section.

          Doug Cowling
          Director of Music
          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
          Toronto




        • Robert White
          Re: [liturgy-l] Curiosity Thursday, March 14, 2013, 7:27:08 PM,Frank Senn wrote: Secondly, I think that the English have a love/hate relationship with the
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 15, 2013
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            Re: [liturgy-l] Curiosity Thursday, March 14, 2013, 7:27:08 PM,Frank Senn wrote:


            Secondly, I think that the English have a love/hate relationship with the papacy. Notice I said LOVE/hate. With other Protestants it's more in the vein of "the pope is the Anti-Christ".


            I hope at least some of us Protestant types have gotten over the anti-Christ view and can see that what happen the Bishop of Rome does and says has some influence (positive and negative) on the whole church.

            And, as a Lutheran currently serving in an Episcopalian parish, it is clearer now that it had been previously that the Episcopalian Church is still working out some of the Reformation era issues with Rome.

            And in another post, Lew Whitaker wrote:

            > Something tells me things are about to change, and that the
            > Tridenistas will not be happy. Francis seems to be very "simple
            > ceremonial." I'd prefer that he work on the real problems facing the
            > church than on restoring Medieval liturgics. Benedict seemed more
            > concerned with the latter than the former.

            And this might get us closer to the brief this list: one of the "real problems facing the church" is liturgical. Lew is correct in noting the the restoration of "Medieval liturgics" isn't the answer, but we do in all of our various traditions have serious issues of liturgics which have been issues for the church since its beginnings: How do we speak and enact the gospel in differing cultures, in changing times in God's relationship with the church, in varying political and social systems. Maybe these are the real "real problems" we need to face.

            -- 
            Best regards,
             Bob White                        
            mailto:prrmwhite@...

            It has been said that though God cannot alter the past, 
            historians can; it is perhaps because they can be useful to Him 
            in this respect that He tolerates their existence. 
            -- Samuel Bulter--Erewhon Revisited
                 
          • Dwight
            Liturgy makes the church. That is not to say that we get to tinker with liturgy to make it say what we want it to so that we can form or reform the
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 15, 2013
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              Liturgy makes the church. That is not to say that we get to tinker with liturgy to make it "say" what we want it to so that we can "form" or "reform" the Church in our own lights. (As a Lutheran, I recognize than my fellow-travelers have something to repent of in that regard -- not that we're alone, of course.)

              Perhaps we need to reclaim, a more Orthodox view of the "place" of liturgy in the life of the Church -- or is it the other way around, the "place" of life in the Church in the liturgy. (Now-Metropolitan Kalistos [Ware]'s old book on the Orthodox Church spells some of the implications out beautifully.) But as many commentators have made clear over the last couple of decades (perhaps before, but I wasn't reading), the liturgy enacts an entire worldview and culture. In my admittedly not, but deservedly, humble opinion, we do well to temper our concern with relatively minute details of liturgical practice with caution and attention to the larger picture, lest we disfigure that worldview and distort that culture.

              Of course, that's not to say that the minutiae don't matter. But I think we need to do a better job of weeding out the "adiaphora" (a good, usually misunderstood Lutheran word) from the essentials.

              And to raise a chauvinist concern: Who are the Lutherans who will take over from Frank Senn (retiring from the active presbytery), Max Johnson, Gordon Lathrop (already retires), and even Robert Jenson (retired)? Who will take on the mantel of keeping Lutheran interest in liturgy deeper than is evident in the scholastic Lutheran tradition?


              Peace
              Dwight Penas
              Minneapolis
              ____________________________
              "Anyone who thinks that he has understood the divine scriptures or any part of them, but cannot by his understanding build up this double love of God and neighbor, has not yet succeeded in understanding them." -- Augustine


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Robert White <whiteslists@...>
              To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Fri, Mar 15, 2013 10:17 am
              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Curiosity

               
              Thursday, March 14, 2013, 7:27:08 PM,Frank Senn wrote:


              Secondly, I think that the English have a love/hate relationship with the papacy. Notice I said LOVE/hate. With other Protestants it's more in the vein of "the pope is the Anti-Christ".


              I hope at least some of us Protestant types have gotten over the anti-Christ view and can see that what happen the Bishop of Rome does and says has some influence (positive and negative) on the whole church.

              And, as a Lutheran currently serving in an Episcopalian parish, it is clearer now that it had been previously that the Episcopalian Church is still working out some of the Reformation era issues with Rome.

              And in another post, Lew Whitaker wrote:

              > Something tells me things are about to change, and that the
              > Tridenistas will not be happy. Francis seems to be very "simple
              > ceremonial." I'd prefer that he work on the real problems facing the
              > church than on restoring Medieval liturgics. Benedict seemed more
              > concerned with the latter than the former.

              And this might get us closer to the brief this list: one of the "real problems facing the church" is liturgical. Lew is correct in noting the the restoration of "Medieval liturgics" isn't the answer, but we do in all of our various traditions have serious issues of liturgics which have been issues for the church since its beginnings: How do we speak and enact the gospel in differing cultures, in changing times in God's relationship with the church, in varying political and social systems. Maybe these are the real "real problems" we need to face.

              -- 
              Best regards,
               Bob White                        
              mailto:prrmwhite@...

              It has been said that though God cannot alter the past, 
              historians can; it is perhaps because they can be useful to Him 
              in this respect that He tolerates their existence. 
              -- Samuel Bulter--Erewhon Revisited
                   
            • Scott Knitter
              One of the needs that always strikes me on a visit to my mom s RC parish (the one I grew up in) in Michigan is the suburban ethos in which everything is sort
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 15, 2013
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                One of the needs that always strikes me on a visit to my mom's RC
                parish (the one I grew up in) in Michigan is the suburban ethos in
                which everything is sort of an equally bland, comfy, chatty affair.
                The current parish priest is relatively new and is unfailingly upbeat,
                outgoing, and people-pleasing, none of which is bad (he's a wonderful
                person), and people are flocking back to church to partake of the new
                fresher style. Still all good. But what of the sense of a connection
                to a much larger Church throughout the world and through the centuries
                in terms of the crucial, not always comfortable aspects of the faith
                and what we're part of as the Body of Christ? What are we all praying
                and hoping for, for the world and for ourselves in the hereafter? Just
                "the promise of something nice after death," as Dorothy Sayers put it?

                That's something liturgy can help balance: besides its primary purpose
                of giving glory to God, it can keep before our eyes both the reality
                of sin and the victory already won in Christ. And sometimes liturgy
                can cut through the suburban comfort to pierce the heart with these
                truths. May it be so.

                And I realize part of my attitude toward my childhood parish is part
                of a "familiarity breeds contempt" phenomenon regarding the whole
                area...I really wish my family would move to a part of the country
                more interesting to visit, just for me. :) Kyrie, eleison.

                On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Robert White <whiteslists@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Thursday, March 14, 2013, 7:27:08 PM,Frank Senn wrote:
                >
                >
                > Secondly, I think that the English have a love/hate relationship with the
                > papacy. Notice I said LOVE/hate. With other Protestants it's more in the
                > vein of "the pope is the Anti-Christ".
                >
                >
                > I hope at least some of us Protestant types have gotten over the
                > anti-Christ view and can see that what happen the Bishop of Rome does and
                > says has some influence (positive and negative) on the whole church.
                >
                > And, as a Lutheran currently serving in an Episcopalian parish, it is
                > clearer now that it had been previously that the Episcopalian Church is
                > still working out some of the Reformation era issues with Rome.
                >
                > And in another post, Lew Whitaker wrote:
                >
                > > Something tells me things are about to change, and that the
                > > Tridenistas will not be happy. Francis seems to be very "simple
                > > ceremonial." I'd prefer that he work on the real problems facing the
                > > church than on restoring Medieval liturgics. Benedict seemed more
                > > concerned with the latter than the former.
                >
                > And this might get us closer to the brief this list: one of the "real
                > problems facing the church" is liturgical. Lew is correct in noting the the
                > restoration of "Medieval liturgics" isn't the answer, but we do in all of
                > our various traditions have serious issues of liturgics which have been
                > issues for the church since its beginnings: How do we speak and enact the
                > gospel in differing cultures, in changing times in God's relationship with
                > the church, in varying political and social systems. Maybe these are the
                > real "real problems" we need to face.
                >
                >
                > --
                > Best regards,
                > Bob White
                > mailto:prrmwhite@...
                >
                > It has been said that though God cannot alter the past,
                > historians can; it is perhaps because they can be useful to Him
                > in this respect that He tolerates their existence.
                > -- Samuel Bulter--Erewhon Revisited
                >
                >
              • Scott Knitter
                A funny online moment when I was busy researching Pope Francis liturgical attitudes: Found the site that told of his setting up an Extraordinary Form Mass
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 15, 2013
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                  A funny online moment when I was busy researching Pope Francis'
                  liturgical attitudes: Found the site that told of his setting up an
                  Extraordinary Form Mass quickly after Summorum Pontificum came out,
                  and the article about the first EF Mass there told of the "priest
                  facing the altar and the women covered in blankets." I then realized I
                  was reading an automatic Google translation of a Spanish web page that
                  really said the women wore mantillas.

                  My first impression, though, made it sound like the EF Mass was done
                  to shut people up and the covering of women's heads a bit overdone in
                  order to say, "There, traditionalists! Ya happy now?"

                  Ah, translation.
                • wx5116
                  I continue to find that the best sense of connection and reverence is in Traditional Latin Masses and that there is a difference between same and the (more
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 15, 2013
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                    I continue to find that the best sense of connection and reverence is in Traditional Latin Masses and that there is a difference between same and the (more casual, for want of a better term) Novus Ordo Masses - even within the same parish.
                     
                    Ditto with Anglican Use Masses, so long as they are in Ordinariate parishes and not as adjunct Masses in regular Latin Rite parishes.
                     
                    David
                     
                    ---------------------------
                    David Lewis
                    Arlington VA USA
                    dlewisaao@...
                     
                    In a message dated 3/15/2013 11:47:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scott.knitter@... writes:
                    One of the needs that always strikes me on a visit to my mom's RC
                    parish (the one I grew up in) in Michigan is the suburban ethos in
                    which everything is sort of an equally bland, comfy, chatty affair.
                    The current parish priest is relatively new and is unfailingly upbeat,
                    outgoing, and people-pleasing, none of which is bad (he's a wonderful
                    person), and people are flocking back to church to partake of the new
                    fresher style. Still all good. But what of the sense of a connection
                    to a much larger Church throughout the world and through the centuries
                    in terms of the crucial, not always comfortable aspects of the faith
                    and what we're part of as the Body of Christ? What are we all praying
                    and hoping for, for the world and for ourselves in the hereafter? Just
                    "the promise of something nice after death," as Dorothy Sayers put it?

                    That's something liturgy can help balance: besides its primary purpose
                    of giving glory to God, it can keep before our eyes both the reality
                    of sin and the victory already won in Christ. And sometimes liturgy
                    can cut through the suburban comfort to pierce the heart with these
                    truths. May it be so.

                    And I realize part of my attitude toward my childhood parish is part
                    of a "familiarity breeds contempt" phenomenon regarding the whole
                    area...I really wish my family would move to a part of the country
                    more interesting to visit, just for me. :) Kyrie, eleison.

                    On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Robert White <whiteslists@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thursday, March 14, 2013, 7:27:08 PM,Frank Senn wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Secondly, I think that the English have a love/hate relationship with the
                    > papacy. Notice I said LOVE/hate. With other Protestants it's more in the
                    > vein of "the pope is the Anti-Christ".
                    >
                    >
                    > I hope at least some of us Protestant types have gotten over the
                    > anti-Christ view and can see that what happen the Bishop of Rome does and
                    > says has some influence (positive and negative) on the whole church.
                    >
                    > And, as a Lutheran currently serving in an Episcopalian parish, it is
                    > clearer now that it had been previously that the Episcopalian Church is
                    > still working out some of the Reformation era issues with Rome.
                    >
                    > And in another post, Lew Whitaker wrote:
                    >
                    > > Something tells me things are about to change, and that the
                    > > Tridenistas will not be happy. Francis seems to be very "simple
                    > > ceremonial." I'd prefer that he work on the real problems facing the
                    > > church than on restoring Medieval liturgics. Benedict seemed more
                    > > concerned with the latter than the former.
                    >
                    > And this might get us closer to the brief this list: one of the "real
                    > problems facing the church" is liturgical. Lew is correct in noting the the
                    > restoration of "Medieval liturgics" isn't the answer, but we do in all of
                    > our various traditions have serious issues of liturgics which have been
                    > issues for the church since its beginnings: How do we speak and enact the
                    > gospel in differing cultures, in changing times in God's relationship with
                    > the church, in varying political and social systems. Maybe these are the
                    > real "real problems" we need to face.
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Best regards,
                    >  Bob White
                    > mailto:prrmwhite@...
                    >
                    > It has been said that though God cannot alter the past,
                    > historians can; it is perhaps because they can be useful to Him
                    > in this respect that He tolerates their existence.
                    > -- Samuel Bulter--Erewhon Revisited
                    >
                    >


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                  • James
                    Just check out the New Liturgical Movement blog and some others! Catholics are evidently running hither and thither over what the new Pope will do
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 15, 2013
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                      Just check out the New Liturgical Movement blog and some others! Catholics are evidently running hither and thither over what the new Pope will do liturgically. Gasp! His first Mass in the Sistine Chapel, before the Cardinals was 'versus populum'! And he said a blessing instead of chanting it? What is the world coming to? All that nice 'high church' stuff that the Pope Emeritus did are being trashed! Woe, woe, and worse! I think there is a bit of a rough ride ahead, until Pope Francis gets his feet firmly in the stirrups. But any Cardinal who likes to cook his own food and goes back to the hotel to pay his bill and pick up his own bags has my vote!

                      Rdr. James Morgan
                      PS I'm also a non-Anglican and also a non-Roman Catholic....

                      --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > No real answer posted so far.  So this non-Anglican will venture the opinions, offered in all kindness, that Anglicans have a great interest in ceremonial.  It's in their spiritual genes.  Lutherans are into theology.  Methodists are into social ministry.  Anglicans are into ceremony. And the papacy offers more of it than just about anything else.  If it doesn't surpass the ceremonial of the British monarchy, it at least competes in a dead heat. Secondly, I think that the English have a love/hate relationship with the papacy.  Notice I said LOVE/hate.  With other Protestants it's more in the vein of "the pope is the Anti-Christ".
                      >
                      > In caritate,
                      > Frank C. Senn
                      >
                      > --- On Thu, 3/14/13, Robert White <whiteslists@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Robert White <whiteslists@...>
                      > Subject: [liturgy-l] Curiosity
                      > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Thursday, March 14, 2013, 11:54 AM
                      > This is not directed at or to anyone in particular.

                      > Why is it that it seems to be the Episcopalian/Anglican types on the list who are most curious about, and critical of, the various papal trappings?
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      >  Bob White
                    • James
                      Bob, try to find a copy of Fashions in Church Furnishings by Peter Anson (long out of print) I think the answer might be there. And it is nice that the NYT
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 15, 2013
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                        Bob, try to find a copy of 'Fashions in Church Furnishings' by Peter Anson (long out of print) I think the answer might be there.

                        And it is nice that the NYT Fashion section would feature a beautiful set of red vestments at all.

                        Rdr. James Morgan

                        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Robert White <whiteslists@...>
                        > Subject: [liturgy-l] Curiosity
                        >
                        > Why is it that it seems to be the Episcopalian/Anglican types on the list
                        > who are most curious about, and critical of, the various papal trappings?
                        >
                        >
                        > Fashion is de fide for Anglicans!
                        >
                        > Remember, the new red high mass set of St. Mary the Virgin, Times Square,
                        > was featured on the front page of the NY Times FASHION section.
                        >
                        > Doug Cowling
                        > Director of Music
                        > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                        > Toronto
                        >
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