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Re: [liturgy-l] The Papacy as Fourth Order

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  • Douglas Cowling
    From: Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] The Papacy as Fourth Order High or low it is clear that the documents of Vatican II, which further
    Message 1 of 72 , Mar 6 6:51 PM
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      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] The Papacy as Fourth Order

      High or low it is clear that the documents of Vatican II, which further continue what was only started at Vatican I, are much in line with the Church's overall Tradition.  In the horizon of the Tradition the Pope is not a super-bishop without whom valid episcopal ordinations cannot occur.

      Well, if you look at the speeches at the Second Vatican Council, the single greatest conflict was on the relationship of the papacy to episcopal collegiality.  A determined minority argued vociferously that the "high" doctrine of the papacy was tradition.  Paul VI tried to paper over the rift with the Explanatory Note, but it only succeeded in suggesting that Eastern orders were invalid because they had not received them as "concessions" from the Roman pontiff. The fight ain't over by any means.

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto

    • James
      Well, Stan, as Francis was elected just hours ago we will have to see how all this plays out. Rdr. james
      Message 72 of 72 , Mar 13 4:39 PM
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        Well, Stan, as Francis was elected just hours ago we will have to see how all this plays out.

        Rdr. james

        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, sjziobro7@... wrote:
        >
        > Dear James,
        >
        >
        > I understand this, yet I cannot but observe that what we are speaking of here is an analogy, not a simple sacrament.
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Stan
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: James <rdrjames@...>
        > To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Mon, Mar 11, 2013 11:49 pm
        > Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: The Papacy as Fourth Order
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Stan, in the Caermenale the rite of coronation of a monarch is a quasi-sacramental rite, particularly the anointing of the monarch.
        > I suppose (I haven't read the text) the crowning of the pope was analogous to that?
        >
        > rdr. James
        >
        > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, sjziobro7@ wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Frank,
        > >
        > > Until a few days ago I never even conceived of the papacy being a Fourth Order of Holy Orders. It's an interesting speculative question for about 1/2 hour, but I've never seen it treated in any of the classical Catholic theologies. I believe I asked Lew or somebody what noted Catholic theologians he's read who have held forth on this question. At any rate, it may bring some sort of comfort to an ultramontanist, but it doesn't fit in with the Tradition. Again, a coronation rite by definition is not an ordination rite, and it is via the latter that one can speak of ontological changes in the soul of the ordinand. Finally, how could somebody in a lesser Order ordain anybody to a higher Order?
        > >
        > > Stan
        >
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