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Re: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies

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  • Michael Thannisch
    And the liturgy doesn t have to be long.  I believe our liturgy, including the liturgy of the word is around 25 minutes.  Of course being a fast day, no
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 10, 2013
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      And the liturgy doesn't have to be long.  I believe our liturgy, including the liturgy of the word is around 25 minutes.  Of course being a fast day, no communion.

      Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
       
      +Mar Michael Abportus
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      --- On Sun, 2/10/13, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

      From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, February 10, 2013, 4:23 PM

       

      I'm leery of imposing ashes outside a liturgy for the reason expressed below as well as it comes across as losing its connection with the liturgy, its "why" factor. 
       
      David
       
      ---------------------------
      David Lewis
      dlewisaao@...
       
      In a message dated 2/10/2013 4:17:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cowling.douglas@... writes:


      Subject: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies

      I've seen reports of various churches out there doing imposition of ashes on Ash Wednesday at times apart from liturgies and at places outside the church. For example, my former TEC Anglo-Catholic parish is doing it from 8-10 am on Ash Wednesday at the nearby Metro station. What do people thing of such?


      There is a body of opinion that says that the imposition of ashes is a sign of penitence within the Christ ian community and should never be a in-your-face party assertion of implied sanctity in the "real world".  The Ash Wednesday Gospel is pretty adamant about washing your face.  The best sermon I've ever heard about the humility of the sign closed with an admonition to wipe off the ashes as you left the church and display only humility of heart in the world.

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto

    • John Dornheim
      Yes, I do. I have never gotten into the alternative. John Dornheim Sent from my iPhone
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 10, 2013
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        Yes, I do. I have never gotten into the alternative. 
        John Dornheim

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Feb 10, 2013, at 4:03 PM, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:

         

        Do you provide the standard "Remember that you are dust..." proclamation with the imposition of ashes?  I know of Lutherans and Episcopalians doing this.  What is your experience?

        Frank C. Senn

        --- On Sun, 2/10/13, John Dornheim <johndornheim@...> wrote:

        From: John Dornheim <johndornheim@...>
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies
        To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Sunday, February 10, 2013, 10:42 AM

         

        I have been doing it for about 10 years.  
        John Dornheim 

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Feb 10, 2013, at 10:16 AM, dlewisaao@... wrote:

         

        I've seen reports of various churches out there doing imposition of ashes on Ash Wednesday at times apart from liturgies and at places outside the church. For example, my former TEC Anglo-Catholic parish is doing it from 8-10 am on Ash Wednesday at the nearby Metro station. What do people thing of such?
         
        ---------------------------
        David Lewis
        dlewisaao@...

      • David J Strang
        At the VA medical center where I work, the chief hospital chaplain makes himself available for the imposition of ashes between 11 AM and 1 PM and again 4 PM to
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 10, 2013
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          At the VA medical center where I work, the chief hospital chaplain makes himself available
          for the imposition of ashes between 11 AM and 1 PM and again 4 PM to 6 PM for the late shift.
          The location is the entrance to the hospital chapel which is just next to one of the main entrances
          to the medical center.  He is very busy as a large percentage of the 2,500 employees avail themselves
          of the service.
           
          He uses the same traditional text.
           
           
          David Strang.

          From: John Dornheim <johndornheim@...>
          To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 11:42 AM
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies
           
          I have been doing it for about 10 years.  
          John Dornheim 
          Sent from my iPhone
          On Feb 10, 2013, at 10:16 AM, dlewisaao@... wrote:
           
          I've seen reports of various churches out there doing imposition of ashes on Ash Wednesday at times apart from liturgies and at places outside the church. For example, my former TEC Anglo-Catholic parish is doing it from 8-10 am on Ash Wednesday at the nearby Metro station. What do people thing of such?
           
          ---------------------------
          David Lewis
          dlewisaao@...
        • James
          Thanks Douglas! Just a reminder here that the Eastern Churches do not impose ashes, but have a short service of mutual forgiveness after the
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 10, 2013
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            Thanks Douglas! Just a reminder here that the Eastern Churches do not impose ashes, but have a short service of mutual forgiveness after the (Quinquagesima)Liturgy, where everyone in a line forgives everyone else: "Forgive me, brother/sister!" "God forgives, I forgive". with mutual embraces. Sometimes this is very touching especially when estranged people face each each other, even sometimes, snarky teenagers with their perplexed parents!, or people who had a catastrophic disagreement with the priest or the choir director! I've seen that happen.

            Thus in our various ways we enter into the Great Fast. Looking forward to it with trepidation and maybe longing. "It's a wonderful time of the year..." as the song goes!

            Rdr. James Morgan
            PS Please forgive me even if Eastern Lent is several weeks from now!

            --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling wrote:
            >
            > From:
            > Subject: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies
            >
            > I've seen reports of various churches out there doing imposition of ashes on
            > Ash Wednesday at times apart from liturgies and at places outside the
            > church. For example, my former TEC Anglo-Catholic parish is doing it from
            > 8-10 am on Ash Wednesday at the nearby Metro station. What do people thing
            > of such?
            >
            >
            > There is a body of opinion that says that the imposition of ashes is a sign
            > of penitence within the Christian community and should never be a
            > in-your-face party assertion of implied sanctity in the "real world". The
            > Ash Wednesday Gospel is pretty adamant about washing your face. The best
            > sermon I've ever heard about the humility of the sign closed with an
            > admonition to wipe off the ashes as you left the church and display only
            > humility of heart in the world.
            >
            > Doug Cowling
            > Director of Music
            > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
            > Toronto
            >
          • James
            Good point, Pastor Frank! I hope that some of the non-Lutherans who got ashes at the beginning persevere to the end and come to your Easter services as they
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 10, 2013
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              Good point, Pastor Frank! I hope that some of the 'non-Lutherans' who got ashes at the beginning persevere to the end and come to your Easter services as they can.

              Rdr. James

              --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Frank Senn wrote:
              >
              > That kind of biblical literalism has kept a lot of Protestants from accepting the imposition of ashes.  I also agree that the optimal use of this rite is after the proclamation of the word and the prayers of penitence.  But I offer a Noon service in my downtown location and some people (e.g. Hispanic workers at the Best Western Hotel across the street) come over and join the line of those coming forward for the imposition of ashes without necessarily being there for the liturgy of the word.  A case can be made that Ash Wednesday proclaims the human condition---we will all die---and need not be limited to Christian believers.  I mean, we're a long way from limiting the imposition of ashes only to those enrolled in the ordo penitentium. Of course, unless people are present for the other end of Lent they don't hear the proclamation of the antidote to the human condition.
              >
              > In any event, the "popularity" of the ashes in our society is a remarkable development.
              >
              > Frank C. Senn   
              >
              > --- On Sun, 2/10/13, Douglas Cowling wrote:
              >
              > From: Douglas Cowling
              > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies
              > To: "Liturgy-Well-Done"
              > Date: Sunday, February 10, 2013, 3:17 PM
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              > From: Subject: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies
              >
              > I've seen reports of various churches out there doing imposition of ashes on Ash Wednesday at times apart from liturgies and at places outside the church. For example, my former TEC Anglo-Catholic parish is doing it from 8-10 am on Ash Wednesday at the nearby Metro station. What do people thing of such?
              >
              > There is a body of opinion that says that the imposition of ashes is a sign of penitence within the Christian community and should never be a in-your-face party assertion of implied sanctity in the "real world".  The Ash Wednesday Gospel is pretty adamant about washing your face.  The best sermon I've ever heard about the humility of the sign closed with an admonition to wipe off the ashes as you left the church and display only humility of heart in the world.
              > Doug CowlingDirector of MusicSt. Philip's Church, EtobicokeToronto
              >
            • Jim .
              My parish has been know to distribute ashes after mass on the First Sunday of Lent......I always defer, saying that if I was to go to the grocery store after
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 11, 2013
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                My parish has been know to distribute ashes after mass on the First Sunday of Lent......I always defer, saying that if I was to go to the grocery store after mass, I'd look like I hadn't washed my face since last Wednesday. 
                 
                As far as I know there is not restrictions on where ashes can be imposed. Our archbishop allows extraordinary Eucharistic minister to bring ashes to shut-ins, and, if no one else is available, also distribute them in the church.


                 

                To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                From: dlewisaao@...
                Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 10:16:12 -0500
                Subject: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies

                 

                I've seen reports of various churches out there doing imposition of ashes on Ash Wednesday at times apart from liturgies and at places outside the church. For example, my former TEC Anglo-Catholic parish is doing it from 8-10 am on Ash Wednesday at the nearby Metro station. What do people thing of such?
                 
                ---------------------------
                David Lewis
                dlewisaao@...

              • Margaret metcalf
                Ahh, but you are missing a wonderful opportunity for evangelism.  I walked into my bank after an AW  noon service one year, approached the teller with my
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 11, 2013
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                  Ahh, but you are missing a wonderful opportunity for evangelism.  I walked into my bank after an AW  noon service one year, approached the teller with my deposit, whereupon she nicely notified me that my forhead was dirty.  Explaination ensued, complete with audience === 

                  Blessings this Lent, Peggy Metcalf



                  From: Jim . <jim.meriden@...>
                  To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 11:14 AM
                  Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies

                   
                  My parish has been know to distribute ashes after mass on the First Sunday of Lent......I always defer, saying that if I was to go to the grocery store after mass, I'd look like I hadn't washed my face since last Wednesday. 
                   
                  As far as I know there is not restrictions on where ashes can be imposed. Our archbishop allows extraordinary Eucharistic minister to bring ashes to shut-ins, and, if no one else is available, also distribute them in the church.


                   

                  To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                  From: dlewisaao@...
                  Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 10:16:12 -0500
                  Subject: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies

                   

                  I've seen reports of various churches out there doing imposition of ashes on Ash Wednesday at times apart from liturgies and at places outside the church. For example, my former TEC Anglo-Catholic parish is doing it from 8-10 am on Ash Wednesday at the nearby Metro station. What do people thing of such?
                   
                  ---------------------------
                  David Lewis
                  dlewisaao@...



                • Jim .
                  I walked into my bank after an AW noon service one year.... ...........well, I feel uncomfortable evangelizing AW with a black smudge on my face four days
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 11, 2013
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                    "I walked into my bank after an AW noon service one year...."
                     
                    ...........well, I feel uncomfortable evangelizing AW with a black smudge on my face four days after the event.


                     

                    To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                    From: mlfm1943@...
                    Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 15:45:00 -0800
                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies

                     
                    Ahh, but you are missing a wonderful opportunity for evangelism.  I walked into my bank after an AW  noon service one year, approached the teller with my deposit, whereupon she nicely notified me that my forhead was dirty.  Explaination ensued, complete with audience === 

                    Blessings this Lent, Peggy Metcalf



                    From: Jim . <jim.meriden@...>
                    To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 11:14 AM
                    Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies

                     
                    My parish has been know to distribute ashes after mass on the First Sunday of Lent......I always defer, saying that if I was to go to the grocery store after mass, I'd look like I hadn't washed my face since last Wednesday. 
                     
                    As far as I know there is not restrictions on where ashes can be imposed. Our archbishop allows extraordinary Eucharistic minister to bring ashes to shut-ins, and, if no one else is available, also distribute them in the church.


                     

                    To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                    From: dlewisaao@...
                    Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 10:16:12 -0500
                    Subject: [liturgy-l] Imposition of ashes separate from Ash Wed liturgies

                     

                    I've seen reports of various churches out there doing imposition of ashes on Ash Wednesday at times apart from liturgies and at places outside the church. For example, my former TEC Anglo-Catholic parish is doing it from 8-10 am on Ash Wednesday at the nearby Metro station. What do people thing of such?
                     
                    ---------------------------
                    David Lewis
                    dlewisaao@...




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