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RE: [liturgy-l] Simultaneous Celebration

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  • Jim .
    I ve seen multiple masses in cathedrals.....St. Patrick s in New York City, for example. Been told that somtimes newly ordained priests get to have their first
    Message 1 of 54 , Jan 31, 2013
      I've seen multiple masses in cathedrals.....St. Patrick's in New York City, for example.
      Been told that somtimes newly ordained priests get to have their first mass there. Other masses for other intentions going on at the same time.



      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      From: scott.knitter@...
      Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 21:08:36 -0600
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Simultaneous Celebration

       
      I haven't experienced simultaneous Masses, unless they were going on
      when I was a wee Roman Catholic kid, just before the 1965 Rite
      arrived. Grandma's parish did have simultaneous upstairs and
      downstairs Masses on Sundays, but I've not seen multiple Masses at
      adjacent altars. The idea fascinates me, not as something I wish would
      come back, but as the reason for certain architectural features: the
      common sight in Chicago RC churches of the high altar flanked by four
      side altars; the side chapels at St. Gregory's Abbey about the size of
      large closets; and especially the crypt filled with chapels below the
      Abbey Church at St. John's Abbey, Collegeville.

      When I see the "wall-o-celebrants" at our neighborhood Episcopal
      parish (Atonement, Chicago) on higher Sundays and holy days, I sort of
      wish they'd do multiple Masses instead...or, more likely, have three
      sacred ministers, with the rest of the priests in choir. The
      many-concelebrants configuration works best, in my opinion, in a
      monastery church like Saint Meinrad, where there's lots of space
      around a west-end cube-shaped altar, so the priests stand with the
      community rather than trying to fit along one side of a typical long
      altar.

      Some fun photos:

      http://www.lib.luc.edu/specialcollections/archive/files/001_madonna_della_strada_chapel_crypt_chapel_de58685276.jpg
      Crypt chapel down the street from where I sit. Would love to get down
      there and see what it looks like nowadays.

      http://www.sanctamissa.org/workshops/news-photos/photos/Missa%20Lecta%20at%20the%20Stritch%20House.jpg
      One in a row of "training chapels" for the Latin Mass, at Mundelein
      Seminary near Chicago

      http://media.mlive.com/travel_impact/photo/abbey-704e48e89ef362b9_medium.jpg
      One of the side chapels at St. Gregory's Abbey in Michigan (Anglican)

      http://www.summorum.ch/images/BarrouxMessePrivee.jpg
      Monk-priest's private daily Mass at the Abbey of Barroux in France

      http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/3044747144_4c9a1eea50_o.jpg
      Five altars across the east end of St. Gertrude's, our neighborhood RC
      parish (six if you count the one that's used today, the freestanding
      one in the sanctuary)

      http://www.wdtprs.com/images2/12_06_25_concelebration_01.jpg
      A Mass tent! (filename says concelebration, but this is specifically
      NOT concelebration)

      On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 6:27 PM, dlewisaao@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > There was a reason that concelebration lapsed way back then. It had to do
      > with too many priests going to the most prestigious parish in the area to
      > concelebrate, at the expense of their parishes. From this situation came
      > the solemn high mass as the normative liturgy, in which there would be one
      > each priest, deacon and subdeacon. The residual was of course in some cases
      > individual masses.
      >
      > David
      >
      > ---------------------------
      > David Lewis
      > dlewisaao@...
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 1/30/2013 6:05:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      > cowling.douglas@... writes:
      >
      > On 1/30/13 3:22 PM, "James" rdrjames@...> wrote:
      >
      > >That is to say he didn't concelebrate but he celebrate separately on a
      > >small table simultaneously with his colleagues.
      >
      >
      > When Abbot Suger dedicated the new Abbey of St.Denis in 1141, 18 bishops
      > simultaneously dedicated the new altars, nine in the upper church and nine
      > in the lower and then 18 masses were simultaneously celebrated with the
      > mass at the high altar. In monastic, cathedral and collegiate churches,
      > provision was made so that priests could fulfill their canonical
      > obligation to say daily mass. Concelebration had entirely lapsed in the
      > high middle ages. On the eve of the Reformation, 40 masses were said
      > every morning in St. Paul's Cathedral in London. The east end of many
      > great churches (e.g. Durham and Fountains) had an eastern transept with 9
      > altars.
      >
      > This arrangement persisted until the Second Vatican Council. Priests in
      > monastic communities said their individual masses at the same time at all
      > the altars. Evidently, priest who celebrated quickly had to wait until
      > their slower colleagues caught up so that all the Sanctus bells could
      > sound at the same time.
      >
      > When the Council debated concelebration, there was a school of thought
      > which asserted that the church was short-changed in grace. Cardinal
      > Cushing is famously reported as saying that if 100 priests concelebrated,
      > the Church would be short 99 masses.
      >
      > Concelebration or at least "assisting" at a community mass is so normative
      > now that is surprising to see someone appealing to the old multiplication
      > of masses.
      >
      > Doug Cowling
      > Director of Music
      > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      > Toronto
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
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    • Jim .
      Does anyone know if there is an annual guide book published to accompany the 2 volume Daily Office Book used in the Episcopal Church ? To:
      Message 54 of 54 , Feb 16, 2013
        Does anyone know if there is an annual guide book published to accompany the 2 volume Daily Office Book used in the Episcopal Church ?

         

        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        From: scott.knitter@...
        Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 11:37:04 -0600
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] The Pastor is wrong

         
        Phone or phone not, Jim's Pastor...there is no "try." --Bishop Yoda. :)

        On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Jim . <jim.meriden@...> wrote:


        Thank you all for your suggestions and your support.
        Yesterday I contacted the pastor by email, laid out my concerns and given him several concrete suggestions. He got back to me this morning and told me that he'd try to phone me on Saturday.


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