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Question re ordination

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  • dlewisaao@aol.com
    This may be a bit off topic, but I m hoping that someone can direct me to a specific source that would show whether a former Episcopal priest who swam the
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 10, 2012
      This may be a bit off topic, but I'm hoping that someone can direct me to a specific source that would show whether a former Episcopal priest who swam the Tiber around 1900 actually was re-ordained in the Catholic Church and also his date of death.  Thanks.
       
      David
       
      ---------------------------
      David Lewis
      dlewisaao@...
    • Douglas Cowling
      ... Doug Cowling Director of Music St. Philip s Church, Etobicoke Toronto ... Re: [liturgy-l] Question re ordination On 12/10/12 12:31 PM, dlewisaao@aol.com
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 10, 2012
        Re: [liturgy-l] Question re ordination On 12/10/12 12:31 PM, "dlewisaao@..." <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

        I'm hoping that someone can direct me to a specific source that would show whether a former Episcopal priest who swam the Tiber around 1900 actually was re-ordained in the Catholic Church and also his date of death.  


        This sounds like an Ecclesiastical Urban Legend. Given that “Apostolica Curae” was issued in 1896, it seems unlikely. There is a lot of unsubstantiated rumour and misinformation circulating in Anglican circles about the ordinariates. Anglican orders are null and void in the Catholic Church. An Anglican priest or bishop converts as a de jure layman, is chrismated (and occasionally conditionally rebaptised) and then goes on to study as a lay seminarian which may lead to ordination as a Catholic deacon and priest for the first time.

        I have not heard of any former Anglican bishop going on to receive episcopal ordination. It appears that reordained Anglican priests will be given delegatory rights of episcopal oversight and be allowed pontificalia like the mitre and pectoral cross. That seems to satisfy the ordinariate converts, but it promotes confusion on all sides about the status of convert clergy.

        I’d be surprised if any former Anglican bishops become Catholic bishops. Even Graham Leonard who was the diocesan Bishop of London never advanced beyond priestly ordination after his conversion. I’m wondering if Cardinal Manning is the only former Anglican priest who has advanced to the episcopate. Cardinal Newman remained a cardinal priest.

               Doug Cowling
                Director of Music
                St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                Toronto



      • DAVID WALLER
        Bishop Alan Hopes is very much alive and was formerly an Anglican Priest.   Re the ordinariates, the stumbling block related to the concept of married
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 10, 2012
          Bishop Alan Hopes is very much alive and was formerly an Anglican Priest.
           
          Re the ordinariates, the stumbling block related to the concept of married bishops. If the former Anglican Bishops who became Ordinaries had not been married, there is no doubt that they would have been ordained to the episcopate.

          From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, 10 December 2012, 17:58
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Question re ordination
           
          On 12/10/12 12:31 PM, "dlewisaao@..." <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

          I'm hoping that someone can direct me to a specific source that would show whether a former Episcopal priest who swam the Tiber around 1900 actually was re-ordained in the Catholic Church and also his date of death.  


          This sounds like an Ecclesiastical Urban Legend. Given that “Apostolica Curae” was issued in 1896, it seems unlikely. There is a lot of unsubstantiated rumour and misinformation circulating in Anglican circles about the ordinariates. Anglican orders are null and void in the Catholic Church. An Anglican priest or bishop converts as a de jure layman, is chrismated (and occasionally conditionally rebaptised) and then goes on to study as a lay seminarian which may lead to ordination as a Catholic deacon and priest for the first time.

          I have not heard of any former Anglican bishop going on to receive episcopal ordination. It appears that reordained Anglican priests will be given delegatory rights of episcopal oversight and be allowed pontificalia like the mitre and pectoral cross. That seems to satisfy the ordinariate converts, but it promotes confusion on all sides about the status of convert clergy.

          I’d be surprised if any former Anglican bishops become Catholic bishops. Even Graham Leonard who was the diocesan Bishop of London never advanced beyond priestly ordination after his conversion. I’m wondering if Cardinal Manning is the only former Anglican priest who has advanced to the episcopate. Cardinal Newman remained a cardinal priest.

                 Doug Cowling
                  Director of Music
                  St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  Toronto



        • Lewis Whitaker
          Wives *and* bling? I can t imagine this will sit well with the Roman priests. Ahh.... the patrimony! On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Douglas Cowling
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 10, 2012
            Wives *and* bling?

            I can't imagine this will sit well with the "Roman" priests. 

            Ahh.... the patrimony! 



            On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:


            On 12/10/12 12:31 PM, "dlewisaao@..." <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

            I'm hoping that someone can direct me to a specific source that would show whether a former Episcopal priest who swam the Tiber around 1900 actually was re-ordained in the Catholic Church and also his date of death.  


            This sounds like an Ecclesiastical Urban Legend. Given that “Apostolica Curae” was issued in 1896, it seems unlikely. There is a lot of unsubstantiated rumour and misinformation circulating in Anglican circles about the ordinariates. Anglican orders are null and void in the Catholic Church. An Anglican priest or bishop converts as a de jure layman, is chrismated (and occasionally conditionally rebaptised) and then goes on to study as a lay seminarian which may lead to ordination as a Catholic deacon and priest for the first time.

            I have not heard of any former Anglican bishop going on to receive episcopal ordination. It appears that reordained Anglican priests will be given delegatory rights of episcopal oversight and be allowed pontificalia like the mitre and pectoral cross. That seems to satisfy the ordinariate converts, but it promotes confusion on all sides about the status of convert clergy.

            I’d be surprised if any former Anglican bishops become Catholic bishops. Even Graham Leonard who was the diocesan Bishop of London never advanced beyond priestly ordination after his conversion. I’m wondering if Cardinal Manning is the only former Anglican priest who has advanced to the episcopate. Cardinal Newman remained a cardinal priest.

                   Doug Cowling
                    Director of Music
                    St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                    Toronto






          • dlewisaao@aol.com
            This guy swam the Tiber - he was a priest in NYC - and apparently went off to the UK for further education. I m presuming that he entered the Catholic Church
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 10, 2012
              This guy swam the Tiber - he was a priest in NYC - and apparently went off to the UK for further education.  I'm presuming that he entered the Catholic Church as a layman as you said, and am simply trying to find what might be a source of listing of former Catholic priests so that whether or not he was actually (re-)ordained can be verified.
               
              David
               
              ---------------------------
              David Lewis
              dlewisaao@...
               
              In a message dated 12/10/2012 12:58:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cowling.douglas@... writes:


              On 12/10/12 12:31 PM, "dlewisaao@..." <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

              I'm hoping that someone can direct me to a specific source that would show whether a former Episcopal priest who swam the Tiber around 1900 actually was re-ordained in the Catholic Church and also his date of death.  


              This sounds like an Ecclesiastical Urban Legend. Given that “Apostolica Curae” was issued in 1896, it seems unlikely. There is a lot of unsubstantiated rumour and misinformation circulating in Anglican circles about the ordinariates. Anglican orders are null and void in the Catholic Church. An Anglican priest or bishop converts as a de jure layman, is chrismated (and occasionally conditionally rebaptised) and then goes on to study as a lay seminarian which may lead to ordination as a Catholic deacon and priest for the first time.

              I have not heard of any former Anglican bishop going on to receive episcopal ordination. It appears that reordained Anglican priests will be given delegatory rights of episcopal oversight and be allowed pontificalia like the mitre and pectoral cross. That seems to satisfy the ordinariate converts, but it promotes confusion on all sides about the status of convert clergy.

              I’d be surprised if any former Anglican bishops become Catholic bishops. Even Graham Leonard who was the diocesan Bishop of London never advanced beyond priestly ordination after his conversion. I’m wondering if Cardinal Manning is the only former Anglican priest who has advanced to the episcopate. Cardinal Newman remained a cardinal priest.

                     Doug Cowling
                      Director of Music
                      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                      Toronto



            • Michael Thannisch
              I recently attended the ordination of a Roman Catholic Bishop to the ordinariate.  His wife and child were there as well. Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 10, 2012
                I recently attended the ordination of a Roman Catholic Bishop to the ordinariate.  His wife and child were there as well.

                Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                 
                +Mar Michael Abportus
                Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                http://patriotstatesman.com/
                http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
                http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
                204 Sylvan Ave.
                La Porte, TX 77571
                281-867-9081 (home)
                281-867-0335 (office)
                832-266-8153 (mobile)
                281-867-0576 (fax)


                --- On Mon, 12/10/12, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

                From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Question re ordination
                To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, December 10, 2012, 12:52 PM

                 

                Wives *and* bling?


                I can't imagine this will sit well with the "Roman" priests. 

                Ahh.... the patrimony! 



                On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:


                On 12/10/12 12:31 PM, "dlewisaao@..." <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                I'm hoping that someone can direct me to a specific source that would show whether a former Episcopal priest who swam the Tiber around 1900 actually was re-ordained in the Catholic Church and also his date of death.  


                This sounds like an Ecclesiastical Urban Legend. Given that “Apostolica Curae” was issued in 1896, it seems unlikely. There is a lot of unsubstantiated rumour and misinformation circulating in Anglican circles about the ordinariates. Anglican orders are null and void in the Catholic Church. An Anglican priest or bishop converts as a de jure layman, is chrismated (and occasionally conditionally rebaptised) and then goes on to study as a lay seminarian which may lead to ordination as a Catholic deacon and priest for the first time.

                I have not heard of any former Anglican bishop going on to receive episcopal ordination. It appears that reordained Anglican priests will be given delegatory rights of episcopal oversight and be allowed pontificalia like the mitre and pectoral cross. That seems to satisfy the ordinariate converts, but it promotes confusion on all sides about the status of convert clergy.

                I’d be surprised if any former Anglican bishops become Catholic bishops. Even Graham Leonard who was the diocesan Bishop of London never advanced beyond priestly ordination after his conversion. I’m wondering if Cardinal Manning is the only former Anglican priest who has advanced to the episcopate. Cardinal Newman remained a cardinal priest.

                       Doug Cowling
                        Director of Music
                        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                        Toronto






              • Douglas Cowling
                ... Can you be more specific? Was this a former Anglican bishop being ordained to the Catholic priesthood? I don¹t think any former Anglican bishop, married
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 10, 2012
                  Re: [liturgy-l] Question re ordination On 12/10/12 3:38 PM, "Michael Thannisch" <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                  I recently attended the ordination of a Roman Catholic Bishop to the ordinariate.  His wife and child were there as well.

                  Can you be more specific? Was this a former Anglican bishop being ordained to the Catholic priesthood?  I don’t think any former Anglican bishop, married or unmarried, has been ordained a Catholic bishop after being reordained a Catholic deacon and priest.

                  Doug Cowling
                  Director of Music
                  St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  Toronto



                • Sean W. Reed
                  The Ordinariate will not have any married Bishops. That is why Msgr. Steenson was not consecrated a Bishop. Sent from my iPhone ... The Ordinariate will not
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 10, 2012
                    The Ordinariate will not have any married Bishops.

                    That is why Msgr. Steenson was not consecrated a Bishop.

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Dec 10, 2012, at 3:02 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                     

                    On 12/10/12 3:38 PM, "Michael Thannisch" <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                    I recently attended the ordination of a Roman Catholic Bishop to the ordinariate.  His wife and child were there as well.

                    Can you be more specific? Was this a former Anglican bishop being ordained to the Catholic priesthood?  I don’t think any former Anglican bishop, married or unmarried, has been ordained a Catholic bishop after being reordained a Catholic deacon and priest.

                    Doug Cowling
                    Director of Music
                    St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                    Toronto



                  • dlewisaao@aol.com
                    Exactly. And the same with Msgr Newton and, I gather (unless he is unmarried), the ordinary-to-be Down Under. They will have the same authority as bishops
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 10, 2012
                      Exactly.  And the same with Msgr Newton and, I gather (unless he is unmarried), the ordinary-to-be Down Under.
                       
                      They will have the same authority as bishops minus the ability to ordain, but they will be the vetting authority for Ordinariate clergy to be ordained in their stead by Latin Rite bishops as worked out by the ordinary.
                       
                      DL
                       
                      ---------------------------
                      David Lewis
                      dlewisaao@...
                       
                      In a message dated 12/10/2012 7:58:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, anglican@... writes:


                      The Ordinariate will not have any married Bishops.

                      That is why Msgr. Steenson was not consecrated a Bishop.

                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On Dec 10, 2012, at 3:02 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                       

                      On 12/10/12 3:38 PM, "Michael Thannisch" <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                      I recently attended the ordination of a Roman Catholic Bishop to the ordinariate.  His wife and child were there as well.

                      Can you be more specific? Was this a former Anglican bishop being ordained to the Catholic priesthood?  I don’t think any former Anglican bishop, married or unmarried, has been ordained a Catholic bishop after being reordained a Catholic deacon and priest.

                      Doug Cowling
                      Director of Music
                      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                      Toronto



                    • Michael Thannisch
                      Oops, this was not the ordinariate, but Old Catholic Church, my mistake. Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@sbcglobal.net
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 10, 2012
                        Oops, this was not the ordinariate, but Old Catholic Church, my mistake.

                        Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                         
                        +Mar Michael Abportus
                        Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                        http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                        http://patriotstatesman.com/
                        http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
                        http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
                        204 Sylvan Ave.
                        La Porte, TX 77571
                        281-867-9081 (home)
                        281-867-0335 (office)
                        832-266-8153 (mobile)
                        281-867-0576 (fax)


                        --- On Mon, 12/10/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                        From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Question re ordination
                        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, December 10, 2012, 3:02 PM

                         

                        On 12/10/12 3:38 PM, "Michael Thannisch" <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                        I recently attended the ordination of a Roman Catholic Bishop to the ordinariate.  His wife and child were there as well.

                        Can you be more specific? Was this a former Anglican bishop being ordained to the Catholic priesthood?  I don’t think any former Anglican bishop, married or unmarried, has been ordained a Catholic bishop after being reordained a Catholic deacon and priest.

                        Doug Cowling
                        Director of Music
                        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                        Toronto



                      • Sean W. Reed
                        I think what you are referring to was when Rutherford Cardinal Johnson consecrated one of his priests a bishop. Sent from my iPad ... I think what you are
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 11, 2012
                          I think what you are referring to was when Rutherford Cardinal Johnson consecrated one of his priests a bishop.

                          Sent from my iPad

                          On Dec 10, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                           

                          Oops, this was not the ordinariate, but Old Catholic Church, my mistake.

                          Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                           
                          +Mar Michael Abportus
                          Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                          204 Sylvan Ave.
                          La Porte, TX 77571
                          281-867-9081 (home)
                          281-867-0335 (office)
                          832-266-8153 (mobile)
                          281-867-0576 (fax)


                          --- On Mon, 12/10/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                          From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Question re ordination
                          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Monday, December 10, 2012, 3:02 PM

                           

                          On 12/10/12 3:38 PM, "Michael Thannisch" <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                          I recently attended the ordination of a Roman Catholic Bishop to the ordinariate.  His wife and child were there as well.

                          Can you be more specific? Was this a former Anglican bishop being ordained to the Catholic priesthood?  I don’t think any former Anglican bishop, married or unmarried, has been ordained a Catholic bishop after being reordained a Catholic deacon and priest.

                          Doug Cowling
                          Director of Music
                          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                          Toronto



                        • Lewis Whitaker
                          There s quite a difference there, Your Grace, as I would expect you to know. Certain parts of the Old Catholic Church will ordain anyone who can fog a mirror.
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 11, 2012
                            There's quite a difference there, Your Grace, as I would expect you to know. 

                            Certain parts of the Old Catholic Church will ordain anyone who can fog a mirror. 





                            On Dec 11, 2012, at 7:25 AM, "Sean W. Reed" <anglican@...> wrote:

                            I think what you are referring to was when Rutherford Cardinal Johnson consecrated one of his priests a bishop.

                            Sent from my iPad

                            On Dec 10, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                             

                            Oops, this was not the ordinariate, but Old Catholic Church, my mistake.

                            Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                             
                            +Mar Michael Abportus
                            Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                            204 Sylvan Ave.
                            La Porte, TX 77571
                            281-867-9081 (home)
                            281-867-0335 (office)
                            832-266-8153 (mobile)
                            281-867-0576 (fax)


                            --- On Mon, 12/10/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                            From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Question re ordination
                            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Monday, December 10, 2012, 3:02 PM

                             

                            On 12/10/12 3:38 PM, "Michael Thannisch" <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                            I recently attended the ordination of a Roman Catholic Bishop to the ordinariate.  His wife and child were there as well.

                            Can you be more specific? Was this a former Anglican bishop being ordained to the Catholic priesthood?  I don’t think any former Anglican bishop, married or unmarried, has been ordained a Catholic bishop after being reordained a Catholic deacon and priest.

                            Doug Cowling
                            Director of Music
                            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                            Toronto



                          • Michael Thannisch
                            Correct, I was one of the co-consecraters. Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@sbcglobal.net Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                            Message 13 of 13 , Dec 11, 2012
                              Correct, I was one of the co-consecraters.

                              Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                               
                              +Mar Michael Abportus
                              Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                              http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                              http://patriotstatesman.com/
                              http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
                              http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
                              204 Sylvan Ave.
                              La Porte, TX 77571
                              281-867-9081 (home)
                              281-867-0335 (office)
                              832-266-8153 (mobile)
                              281-867-0576 (fax)


                              --- On Tue, 12/11/12, Sean W. Reed <anglican@...> wrote:

                              From: Sean W. Reed <anglican@...>
                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Question re ordination
                              To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: Tuesday, December 11, 2012, 6:25 AM

                               

                              I think what you are referring to was when Rutherford Cardinal Johnson consecrated one of his priests a bishop.

                              Sent from my iPad

                              On Dec 10, 2012, at 10:46 PM, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                               

                              Oops, this was not the ordinariate, but Old Catholic Church, my mistake.

                              Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                               
                              +Mar Michael Abportus
                              Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                              204 Sylvan Ave.
                              La Porte, TX 77571
                              281-867-9081 (home)
                              281-867-0335 (office)
                              832-266-8153 (mobile)
                              281-867-0576 (fax)


                              --- On Mon, 12/10/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                              From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Question re ordination
                              To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Monday, December 10, 2012, 3:02 PM

                               

                              On 12/10/12 3:38 PM, "Michael Thannisch" <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                              I recently attended the ordination of a Roman Catholic Bishop to the ordinariate.  His wife and child were there as well.

                              Can you be more specific? Was this a former Anglican bishop being ordained to the Catholic priesthood?  I don’t think any former Anglican bishop, married or unmarried, has been ordained a Catholic bishop after being reordained a Catholic deacon and priest.

                              Doug Cowling
                              Director of Music
                              St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                              Toronto



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