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Re: [liturgy-l] Reverence for the Trinity

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  • Lewis Whitaker
    The real Trinity? You mean there s a real Trinity and a false Trinity?
    Message 1 of 61 , Nov 11, 2012
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      The "real Trinity?" You mean there's a "real Trinity" and a false Trinity?




      On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 8:17 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:


      If it isn't the "real Trinity," it would make sense not to reverence such.
       
      David
       
      ---------------------------
      David Lewis
      dlewisaao@...
       
      In a message dated 11/11/2012 7:23:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, DJP4LAW@... writes:


      It happened again!

      I was going to close that I am inclined NOT to treat that as a Gloria because it does not use the actual name of the Three-in-One. (Doing so has encouraged the pastor and servers to bow at any sideways reference to the Trinity. It's a picky point, but at least in my case the decreasing respect for actual name of God seems to be invading liturgical ceremonial.



      Peace
      Dwight Penas
      Minneapolis
      ____________________________
      As I read the birth stories about Jesus I cannot help but conclude that though the world may be tilted toward the rich and powerful, God is tilted toward the underdog. -- Philip Yancey


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Dwight J. Penas <djp4law@...>
      To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sun, Nov 11, 2012 6:15 pm
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Reverence for the Trinity

      I have been influenced by Orthodox practice, so my signs of the cross are followed by bows. Regardless of that grouping, it is our congregation's practice to stand (and many to bow) even if we're singing a hymn while seated. Yesterday at a funeral, the organist signaled by an interlude (and many of the self-described "high" churchers agreed) that we should arise for this verse:

      Father, who the crown shall give,
      Savior, by whose death we live,
      Spirit, guide through all our days:
      Three in One, your name we praise.


      My little point is that I am inclined NOT to acknowledge that as a 



      Peace
      Dwight Penas
      Minneapolis
      ____________________________
      As I read the birth stories about Jesus I cannot help but conclude that though the world may be tilted toward the rich and powerful, God is tilted toward the underdog. -- Philip Yancey


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
      To: Liturgy-L <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sun, Nov 11, 2012 5:58 pm
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Reverence for the Trinity

       
      I see what you mean, although I don't know of many hymns that refer to the Trinity in non-Father, Son and Holy Spirit terms. My years as an Episcopalian and then Eastern Orthodox have taught me to both bow and cross myself. I cannot undo it.

      Lew


      On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 6:52 PM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:


      I was taught to distinguish between "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" and such formulations that show up in hymns as "Father, Light, Spirit" or "God, Son, and Holy Spirit." Many hymns call for praise or glory to God in the latest two forms (and others).

      I'm trying to determine whether it is liturgically "appropriate" to bow and/or make the sign of the cross at the second and third references. I think, but don't know, that ve self-designated "high Church" types in my congregation who want the congregation


      Peace
      Dwight Penas
      Minneapolis
      ____________________________
      As I read the birth stories about Jesus I cannot help but conclude that though the world may be tilted toward the rich and powerful, God is tilted toward the underdog. -- Philip Yancey


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
      To: Liturgy-L <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 7:39 pm
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Reverence for the Trinity

       
      I do not understand this....


      On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:


      ... when the so-called Trinitarian reference is to something other than Father, Son, and Spirit.


      Peace
      Dwight Penas
      Minneapolis
      ____________________________
      As I read the birth stories about Jesus I cannot help but conclude that though the world may be tilted toward the rich and powerful, God is tilted toward the underdog. -- Philip Yancey


      -----Original Message-----
      From: dlewisaao <dlewisaao@...>
      To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 6:46 pm
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Liturgy moribund?

       
      Yes, reverence should be given to the Trinity, but if people are seated there is no need for people to stand.  In either instance, bowing can be done.
       
      David
       
      ---------------------------
      David Lewis
      dlewisaao@...
       
      In a message dated 11/10/2012 7:40:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, DJP4LAW@... writes:


      I'm with James on this. I'm pretty much a lurker, but I can't express sufficiently the benefit I have taken from the conversation. (If it gets too arcane, I can easily tune out.)

      I have a question that may strike many as silly, and I acknowledge that it is hardly a matter that shakes the earth. But I worship in a congregation that prides itself of taking a proper liturgical posture to things, so I think we should be self-critical.

      We're having this little controversy in our parish (well, in our Worship Committee), and I'd appreciate some help in getting my thinking straight when people ask me about this (as some have).

      We have the practice in our singing to reverence references to the Holy Trinity. If we are standing, many of our members bow at the recitation of the Triune name. If we happen to be seated (as during our singing during the communion), we rise and many bow.

      Now the issue is that I understand that such reverence should attend only refernces to Father, Son, Spiirt. But many hymns substitute terms or metaphors for the names of the Trinity -- Father, Light, Spirit, e.g. We some our liturgically informed people say it's just fine not to distinguish between references to the names of the persons and refences to alternative titles. (The new ELCA worship book doesn't offer any help because it encourages the sign of the cross at the mere mention of the word "Trinity.")

      I'm just seeking guidance on whether to be bothered by this or to relax. (I realize that sounds like a pietist prayer: "Lord, I just want to ...." Consider me a person of catholic weaknesses.)


      Peace
      Dwight Penas
      Minneapolis
      ____________________________
      As I read the birth stories about Jesus I cannot help but conclude that though the world may be tilted toward the rich and powerful, God is tilted toward the underdog. -- Philip Yancey


      -----Original Message-----
      From: James <rdrjames@...>
      To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, Nov 10, 2012 6:20 pm
      Subject: [liturgy-l] Liturgy moribund?

       
      Either all the 'Liturgists' are on vacation or studying up on what new thing to do for Advent!

      I miss the giddy repartee here!

      Rdr. James Morgan










    • Lewis Whitaker
      Roma locuta est.
      Message 61 of 61 , Nov 15, 2012
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        Roma locuta est.


        On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Sandford MacLean <MacLean@...> wrote:


         When the Epistle containing these words is sung/read on Palm Sunday (and other days) one genuflects.

        In Christ,
        Sandford MacLean

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Nov 15, 2012, at 17:26, "James" <rdrjames@...> wrote:

         

        What would sitters do when they sing "At the Name of Jesus, every knee should bow...."?

        Rdr. James

        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:
        >
        > I attended a Liturgy in a Midwestern Episcopal Cathedral where "Stand Up, Stand Up For Jesus" was
        > somehow programmed for the Communion hymn, ordinarily sung kneeling.
        >  
        > It was immediately noticed how odd this was, and most in the assembly rose to their feet to conclude
        > the hymn.
        >  
        >  
        > David Strang.




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