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Re: [liturgy-l] Anticipating feasts

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  • Michael Thannisch
    We have scratched the August 6 celebration for that very reason. Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@sbcglobal.net Pastor,
    Message 1 of 39 , Aug 14, 2012
      We have scratched the August 6 celebration for that very reason.


      Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
       
      +Mar Michael Abportus
      Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
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      --- On Tue, 8/14/12, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

      From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Anticipating feasts
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 3:42 PM

       

      Indeed, I've wondered why those calendars that effectively observe the Transfiguration the Sunday before Lent, which is a liturgically logical place, have not scrubbed the second (August) observance.
       
      David
       
      ---------------------------
      David Lewis
      dlewisaao@...
       
      In a message dated 8/14/2012 4:33:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fcsenn@... writes:


      "Ordinary" refers to "ordinal," as in Sundays with a number rather than a name.  The reform of the calendar was precisely to say that Sunday, the Lord's Day, the day of resurrection, is THE major festival.  The event of the transfiguration receives more attention now as the Sunday before Lent than it ever received on Aug. 6.  Maybe the BCP allowance is a nod to the Eastern Church.  It didn't come into the Western calendar until 1456 when Pope Calixtus III announced the victory at Belgrade, at which the Ottoman armies, having just conquered Constantinople, were stopped from advancing farther into Europe (for a while).

      Frank C. Senn

      --- On Tue, 8/14/12, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

      From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Anticipating feasts
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 3:13 PM

       

      But all "Feasts of Our Lord" always bump ordinary Sundays. It's only in the West that the Transfiguration has been given such short shrift. It's terribly important in the Eastern Churches.

      Lew


      On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:


      Even so, it's interesting that since the Churches now allow very few festivals to bump Sunday that the BCP would rate the Aug. 6 Transfiguration among them when the event has a very secure place in the BCP Lectionary and the RCL.  There's got to be some issue at stake here more than the gospel event itself.

      Frank C. Senn

      --- On Tue, 8/14/12, Scott Knitter <scott.knitter@...> wrote:

      From: Scott Knitter <scott.knitter@...>
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Anticipating feasts
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 8:08 AM

       

      Only if the Sunday is August 6, though.

      On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 11:33 PM, Michael Thannisch
      <mjthannisch@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > According to the rules in the BCP, feasts that are bumped go to the following day, not the preceding. The Transfiguration though takes the place of the Sunday feast and does not need to be bumped according to the rubrics in the 1979 PECUSA BCP




    • dollpka
      In the Orthodox Church, Annunciation is never transferred, even if it falls on Pascha itself. In fact this happened most recently in 1991. It is also called
      Message 39 of 39 , Aug 21, 2012
        In the Orthodox Church, Annunciation is never transferred, even if it falls on Pascha itself. In fact this happened most recently in 1991. It is also called Kyriopascha.
        A caveat is that this can currently only occur in those churches which use the Julian calendar for the monthly feasts, i.e. the "old calendar".

        Regards,
        Kenneth Doll

        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
        >
        > The Feast of the Annunciation is of SUCH great importance to the Eastern
        > Church that it is NEVER transferred (except maybe if it occurs on Pascha).
        > If one wants to see TRUE liturgical acrobatics, watch an Orthodox priest
        > when he realizes that the Annunciation falls on Good Friday! It's quite a
        > mess.
        >
        > Lew
        >
        >
        > On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:17 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Very true - so long as the feast lands on a Sunday but not on the day
        > > after.
        > >
        > > David
        > >
        > > ---------------------------
        > > David Lewis
        > > dlewisaao@...
        > >
        > > In a message dated 8/15/2012 12:03:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        > > wisne1dm@... writes:
        > >
        > > There's also this rubric on p. 16 of the 1979 BCP:
        > >
        > > "When desired, however, the Collect, Preface, and one or more of the
        > > Lessons appointed for the Feast may be substituted for those of the Sunday,
        > > but not from the Last Sunday after Pentecost through the First Sunday after
        > > the Epiphany, or from the Last Sunday after the Epiphany through Trinity
        > > Sunday."
        > >
        > > This would seem to allow such a transference, maybe not technically in
        > > name, but in everything else.
        > >
        > > Dave Wisner
        > >
        > >
        > > On Aug 14, 2012, at 8:22 PM, Scott Knitter wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I understand the answer to be No, as there appears to be no provision
        > > for that, and transfers are described as going forward from a Sunday
        > > to an open day in the week. A church called Church of the
        > > Transfiguration, however, could observe its feast of title by
        > > observing it on, or transferring it to, a Sunday. Doesn't say which
        > > direction.
        > >
        > > Otherwise the only provision I see for moving Transfiguration backward
        > > to Sunday would be this on p. 16:
        > >
        > > "With the express permission of the bishop, and for urgent and
        > > sufficient reason, some other special occasion may be observed on a
        > > Sunday."
        > >
        > > I wouldn't blame a bishop for saying, "No, please observe the Sunday,
        > > as we already have the Transfiguration lessons just before Lent, so
        > > there's nothing urgent and sufficient justifying a move of
        > > Transfiguration backward to the Sunday before August 6."
        > >
        > > On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 7:15 PM, <dlewisaao@...<mailto:
        > > dlewisaao%40aol.com>> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > But the question remains: this year, the Transfiguration fell on a Monday
        > > > - can it licitly be transferred backward, i.e., anticipated, on the
        > > Sunday
        > > > immediately preceding? There is no question about when the
        > > Transfiguration,
        > > > or feasts of similar or higher import, lands on a Sunday.
        > > >
        > > > David
        > > >
        > > > ---------------------------
        > > > David Lewis
        > > > dlewisaao@...<mailto:dlewisaao%40aol.com>
        > > >
        > > > In a message dated 8/14/2012 8:07:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        > > > scott.knitter@...<mailto:scott.knitter%40gmail.com> writes:
        > > >
        > > > The Episcopal Church (USA) 1979 BCP (pp. 15-16) gives the following as
        > > > taking precedence of a Sunday:
        > > >
        > > > Principal Feasts on Fixed Dates:
        > > > All Saints' Day, Nov. 1
        > > > Christmas Day, Dec. 25
        > > > The Epiphany, Jan. 6
        > > >
        > > > Major Feasts That Take Precedence of a Sunday (Major Feasts of Our Lord):
        > > > The Holy Name, Jan. 1
        > > > The Presentation, Feb. 2
        > > > The Transfiguration, Aug. 6
        > > >
        > > > Other Observances That May Be Observed on a Sunday:
        > > > Dedication of a Church
        > > > Patronal Feast
        > > > Feast of Title
        > > >
        > > > My theory is that all Feasts of Our Lord take either are already on a
        > > > Sunday (Baptism of Our Lord) or take precedence if they land on a
        > > > Sunday (Holy Name, Presentation, Transfiguration). Everything else:
        > > > feasts of the BVM, of apostles, evangelists, etc. -- are transferred
        > > > if they land on a Sunday. It could be argued, IMHO, that the Last
        > > > Sunday After the Epiphany could handle the observance of the
        > > > Transfiguration, as the Last Sunday Before Advent handles the
        > > > observance of Christ the King (Reign of Christ). The BCP compilers
        > > > seem to have been reluctant to attach those names to those Sundays.
        > > >
        > > >
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