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RE: [liturgy-l] Lock-up the Hosts

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  • Pastor Art Hebbeler
    Now that is funny! I have always felt (tongue in cheek) that the greater mystery of faith was to believe the wafer was bread. If you can believe that, then
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 1, 2012

      Now that is funny!

       

      I have always felt (tongue in cheek) that the greater mystery of faith was to believe the wafer was bread. If you can believe that, then Christ’s presence is a no-brainer.

       

      Actually, I was kinda thinking that about folks who actually believe that wafers are a valid substitute for bread. 

      John Dornheim

    • Ian Gomersall
      I recall an older priest when i was a curate telling me that an old man started to attend his church aand at the moment of Communion took out his pocket watch
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 5, 2012
        I recall an older priest when i was a curate telling me that an old man started to attend his church aand at the moment of Communion took out his pocket watch and carefully placed the host in the watch. When this was raised with the elderly gentleman it became clear he was taking It home for his wife who was immobile in bed.

        The priest explained to the gentleman that there were others means by which she could receive Holy Communion.

        Ian
        Tenebrae - on our church blog: www.ourchurchblog.co.uk 
      • Lewis H. Whitaker
        One can hardly fault his piety, or his devotion to his wife, even if it lies outside of the letter of the law. Lew
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 5, 2012
          One can hardly fault his piety, or his devotion to his wife, even if it lies outside of the letter of the law. 

          Lew




          On Apr 5, 2012, at 7:32 PM, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:

          I recall an older priest when i was a curate telling me that an old man started to attend his church aand at the moment of Communion took out his pocket watch and carefully placed the host in the watch. When this was raised with the elderly gentleman it became clear he was taking It home for his wife who was immobile in bed.

          The priest explained to the gentleman that there were others means by which she could receive Holy Communion.

          Ian
          Tenebrae - on our church blog: www.ourchurchblog.co.uk 
        • David J Strang
          I am old enough to still think of what is now generally called Holy Saturday as Easter Even which was the term in TEC 28 Prayer Book, from the term coined
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 5, 2012


            I am old enough to still think of what is now generally called "Holy Saturday"
            as "Easter Even" which was the term in TEC 28 Prayer Book, from the
            term coined for the day in the 1529 First Prayer Book of Edward VI.
             
            In TEC 1928 Prayer Book, there is the standard Collect, which is of a frankly
            Easter tone, with the Epistle and Gospel being yet anticipatory of Easter.
             
            TEC '79 Prayer Book calls it "Holy Saturday", and though Collect and
            proper scriptural lessons and Psalm are listed, there is the advisory on
            p283 that "There is no celebration of the Eucharist on this day".  This
            assumes there will be a [restored] Easter Vigil in the evening.
             
            I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
            and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
            this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
            Anglican Prayer Books?
             
            I realize that the RCC was busy doing the Liturgy of the Easter Vigil
            in the morning of Holy Saturday prior to the Pian Reforms.  So a third
            question would be whether there was a RCC custom prior to the
            Pian Reforms of a Mass on this day.
             
             
            David Strang - Just looking out at a lovely full Paschal Moon in the clear
                                  skies of the USA East tonight.


          • Michael Thannisch
            Even is just another word for Eve. Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@sbcglobal.net Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 5, 2012
              Even is just another word for Eve.


              Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
               
              +Mar Michael Abportus
              Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
              http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
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              --- On Thu, 4/5/12, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

              From: David J Strang <davidjstrang@...>
              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
              To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Thursday, April 5, 2012, 9:12 PM

               



              I am old enough to still think of what is now generally called "Holy Saturday"
              as "Easter Even" which was the term in TEC 28 Prayer Book, from the
              term coined for the day in the 1529 First Prayer Book of Edward VI.
               
              In TEC 1928 Prayer Book, there is the standard Collect, which is of a frankly
              Easter tone, with the Epistle and Gospel being yet anticipatory of Easter.
               
              TEC '79 Prayer Book calls it "Holy Saturday", and though Collect and
              proper scriptural lessons and Psalm are listed, there is the advisory on
              p283 that "There is no celebration of the Eucharist on this day".  This
              assumes there will be a [restored] Easter Vigil in the evening.
               
              I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
              and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
              this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
              Anglican Prayer Books?
               
              I realize that the RCC was busy doing the Liturgy of the Easter Vigil
              in the morning of Holy Saturday prior to the Pian Reforms.  So a third
              question would be whether there was a RCC custom prior to the
              Pian Reforms of a Mass on this day.
               
               
              David Strang - Just looking out at a lovely full Paschal Moon in the clear
                                    skies of the USA East tonight.


            • Douglas Cowling
              ... The provision in the oldest Prayer Books around Easter shows how inadequate the scholarly knowledge of the history of liturgy was for Cranmer and his
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 6, 2012
                Re: [liturgy-l]:  Easter Even. On 4/5/12 10:12 PM, "David J Strang" <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
                and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
                this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
                Anglican Prayer Books?
                 

                The provision in the oldest Prayer Books around Easter shows how inadequate the scholarly knowledge of the history of liturgy was for Cranmer and his colleagues, as opposed to the proficiency of the biblical scholars.  Cranmer abolished all of the Holy Week rites from Palm Sunday to Easter Day on the assumption that they were all accretions to the “primitive” church. All of the familiar Holy Week rites were not officially authorized until the new prayer books and alternative service books of the 1970 –80’s.

                Cranmer’s lack of historical knowledge produced some odd hybrids. The Holy Week sacramentals with their “diverse cringings” were all swept away except for the continuous readings of the four Passion accounts beginning with Matthew on Palm Sunday, continuing with Mark and Luke on Monday to Thursday, and John on Good Friday. Maundy Thursday became the “Thursday before Easter” with no vestiges of the chrism or mandatum masses: the Gospel was the second half of the Lucan Passion

                Cranmer seems to have been influenced by the immediate tradition of the Easter Vigil on Saturday morning and Easter Day on Sunday: for him there were full masses on Saturday and Sunday.  However, he couldn’t sort out their significance, so he moved the readings of the Vigil to Easter Day and provided new readings chosen to make Easter Even a kind of Burial of Christ commemoration. In this, he was clearly influenced by his memory of the Watch before the Sepulchre with the buried Host which was such a popular devotion and whose loss was sorely lamented by the laity.

                And even odder. He retained the old lazy medieval three day “short octave” with propers for the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday  after Easter.  In this, he may have been influenced by Luther who similarly kept the three day short octave for Christmas, Easter and Pentecost. Thomas Tallis set the psalms for the three days of Christmas in one of the earliest prototypes of Anglican chant. We can see this provision in the Lutheran calendar as late as the Christmas Oratorio of Bach from the 1730’s where the first three parts of the oratorio are assigned to the Three Days of Christmas.

                I’ve never been able to discover why these calendrical oddities were maintained even in the 1662 BCP or how they were celebrated in the 16th – late 19th centuries. I suspect that they were considered “festivals” and were marked with the customary Matins, Litany and Ante-Communion.  Someone with more knowledge of the evangelical-tractarian controversies of the late 19th century can tell us if anyone actually celebrated the eucharist on those days. There is an old Urban Ecclesiastical Legend which circulates in the gin-and-lace crowd that those wicked evangelicals celebrated communion on Good Friday and Easter Even just to spite the anglo-catholics. There are certainly examples of the eucharist on Good Friday stemming from Protestant sources.

                One always thinks of the “Importance of Being Earnest” when discussing ancient practices:

                Dr. Chasuble. [With a scholar’s shudder.]
                Believe me, I do not deserve so neologistic a phrase.
                The precept as well as the practice of the Primitive Church was distinctly against matrimony.

                Miss Prism. [Sententiously.]
                That is obviously the reason why the Primitive Church has not lasted up to the present day.

                Doug Cowling
                Director of Music
                St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                Toronto


              • Frank Senn
                One finds in the old Lutheran books full sets of propers for the Mass or Holy Communion on Good Friday and Holy Saturday.  I ve often wondered if the example
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 7, 2012
                  One finds in the old Lutheran books full sets of propers for the Mass or Holy Communion on Good Friday and Holy Saturday.  I've often wondered if the example of Zwingli in Zurich in 1525 wasn't influential on all the Reformation traditions.  All Christians in the Middle Ages had been required to receive communion on Easter, first making a confession to a priest.  Zwingli arranged that the whole city would receive communion after penitential services earlier in Holy Week.  So he divided the communicants so that various groupings (youth, women, men - I don't remember in what exact order) received communion on Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter Sunday.  Since communion from the reserved sacrament wasn't an option, as Lutherans and Anglicans took up this practice it is understandable that full propers would be provided for the Mass or Holy Communion on those days.  In the old Lutheran Common Service those propers included, Introit, Epistle, Gradual or Lenten Tract, and Gospel.  In Germany, Good Friday remains the biggest communion day of the year (perhaps because it's also a holiday).  

                  Frank C. Senn

                  --- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                  From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
                  To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 2:13 PM

                   

                  On 4/5/12 10:12 PM, "David J Strang" <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                  I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
                  and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
                  this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
                  Anglican Prayer Books?
                   

                  The provision in the oldest Prayer Books around Easter shows how inadequate the scholarly knowledge of the history of liturgy was for Cranmer and his colleagues, as opposed to the proficiency of the biblical scholars.  Cranmer abolished all of the Holy Week rites from Palm Sunday to Easter Day on the assumption that they were all accretions to the “primitive” church. All of the familiar Holy Week rites were not officially authorized until the new prayer books and alternative service books of the 1970 –80’s.

                  Cranmer’s lack of historical knowledge produced some odd hybrids. The Holy Week sacramentals with their “diverse cringings” were all swept away except for the continuous readings of the four Passion accounts beginning with Matthew on Palm Sunday, continuing with Mark and Luke on Monday to Thursday, and John on Good Friday. Maundy Thursday became the “Thursday before Easter” with no vestiges of the chrism or mandatum masses: the Gospel was the second half of the Lucan Passion

                  Cranmer seems to have been influenced by the immediate tradition of the Easter Vigil on Saturday morning and Easter Day on Sunday: for him there were full masses on Saturday and Sunday.  However, he couldn’t sort out their significance, so he moved the readings of the Vigil to Easter Day and provided new readings chosen to make Easter Even a kind of Burial of Christ commemoration. In this, he was clearly influenced by his memory of the Watch before the Sepulchre with the buried Host which was such a popular devotion and whose loss was sorely lamented by the laity.

                  And even odder. He retained the old lazy medieval three day “short octave” with propers for the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday  after Easter.  In this, he may have been influenced by Luther who similarly kept the three day short octave for Christmas, Easter and Pentecost. Thomas Tallis set the psalms for the three days of Christmas in one of the earliest prototypes of Anglican chant. We can see this provision in the Lutheran calendar as late as the Christmas Oratorio of Bach from the 1730’s where the first three parts of the oratorio are assigned to the Three Days of Christmas.

                  I’ve never been able to discover why these calendrical oddities were maintained even in the 1662 BCP or how they were celebrated in the 16th – late 19th centuries. I suspect that they were considered “festivals” and were marked with the customary Matins, Litany and Ante-Communion.  Someone with more knowledge of the evangelical-tractarian controversies of the late 19th century can tell us if anyone actually celebrated the eucharist on those days. There is an old Urban Ecclesiastical Legend which circulates in the gin-and-lace crowd that those wicked evangelicals celebrated communion on Good Friday and Easter Even just to spite the anglo-catholics. There are certainly examples of the eucharist on Good Friday stemming from Protestant sources.

                  One always thinks of the “Importance of Being Earnest” when discussing ancient practices:

                  Dr. Chasuble. [With a scholar’s shudder.]
                  Believe me, I do not deserve so neologistic a phrase.
                  The precept as well as the practice of the Primitive Church was distinctly against matrimony.

                  Miss Prism. [Sententiously.]
                  That is obviously the reason why the Primitive Church has not lasted up to the present day.

                  Doug Cowling
                  Director of Music
                  St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  Toronto


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