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Re: [liturgy-l] Lock-up the Hosts

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  • Michael Thannisch
    And don t be too quick to laugh at Satanists as something imaginary.  I know of at least two places here in Texas where Satanists have been known to have
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 31, 2012
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      And don't be too quick to laugh at Satanists as something imaginary.  I know of at least two places here in Texas where Satanists have been known to have human sacrifices.  It is not well advertised, but it does happen.

      Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
       
      +Mar Michael Abportus
      Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
      http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
      http://patriotstatesman.com/
      http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
      http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
      204 Sylvan Ave.
      La Porte, TX 77571
      281-867-9081 (home)
      281-867-0335 (office)
      832-266-8153 (mobile)
      281-867-0576 (fax)


      --- On Sat, 3/31/12, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

      From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Lock-up the Hosts
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, March 31, 2012, 11:28 AM

       

      I am aware of the parish where there were the wiccan problems and heard the scrapbook report directly from the priest who saw it, but would prefer not to name names.  The good thing is that these are not reports from recent years, but they did happen.  The only clarification is that I may be using "wiccan" when something like a Black Mass was intended.
       
      ---------------------------
      David Lewis
      dlewisaao@...
       
      In a message dated 3/31/2012 12:09:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lhwhitaker@... writes:


      I know of no Wiccans who would have any use for a consecrated host. Let's not make generalizations.
      There have been hosts consecrated by bishops and priests that have shown up on ebay, but I don't think that's indicative of all, or even most, Catholics.

      To be fair, I know of no one who would have use for a scrapbook full of hosts, but I digress.

      Lew


      On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 11:51 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:


      I recall that a number of years ago at one Episcopal Church in New York City there was a problem of (1) one or two people saving hosts for wiccan use and (2) a woman who was collecting hosts and putting them into a scrapbook.
       
      Those administering the Sacrament are not really doing their job if they are not watching whether people actually consume.
       
      ---------------------------
      David Lewis
      dlewisaao@...

       
      In a message dated 3/31/2012 11:23:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lhwhitaker@... writes:


      No, Doug.... It's Dan Brown's next novel!

      I'm glad that the Vatican is green-lighting locking up the Eucharist. What a great idea!

      Le

      On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
      From the "Vatican Insider" blog:

      http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/inquiries-and-interviews/detai
      l/articolo/eucarestia-eucharist-eucaristia-13888/


      "An escalating wave of sacrilegious thefts of wafers strikes across Italy.
      The Archbishop of Monreale encourages parishes to lock up the Eucharist,
      with a green light from the Holy See ...

      .. for months now, these violations and abuses have been taking place, one
      right after the other: from the two Muslims in Sondrio who received the host
      in their hands from a priest - only to put it in their pockets, to a barrage
      of sacrilegious thefts throughout Italy ...

      'The canonist Cardinal Velasio De Paolis, current Director for the
      Pontifical Congregation of the Legionaries of Christ, who has long occupied
      top positions at the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura and various
      Vatican dicasteries, supports the "exceptional measure" initiated by the
      Archbishop of Monreale, Salvatore Di Cristina.

      "The Host given in the hand instead of the mouth increases the risk of that
      it will be taken away, profaned, or kept for a sacrilegious purpose. But it
      is Jesus himself who performed this rite with the apostles," notes the
      cardinal. ³The fact that the celebrant washes his hands before touching the
      bread in which Christ is present is not just a symbolic and spiritual act."
      So it is "appropriate that we do everything we can to ensure the utmost
      respect for the Eucharist." ...

      From north to south, an unbroken chain of profanity is evidence of the boom
      of Satanist groups, recently discussed in a law enforcement report, powered
      by the Internet jungle drum. At Santa Croce sull¹Arno at Montegranaro, near
      Ascoli Piceno, the incursions into sacred places have no other purpose than
      the theft of the wafers, casting the shadow of Satan onto many events in the
      news. "The Eucharist is the supreme good of the Church - canon 1367 of the
      Code of Canon Law speaks clearly on the subject," says De Paolis"

      ³Graffiti against Christ was found on walls, cemeteries and statues
      vandalised and there has been spitting and jeering against priests and
      Christian clerics. The good news is that the Israeli government authorities
      and Jewish religious authorities have condemned these acts. ..."

      Muslims, Jews, Satanists ... Am I reading a plot synopsis for a 19th century
      opera at La Scala?

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto








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    • Pastor Art Hebbeler
      Now that is funny! I have always felt (tongue in cheek) that the greater mystery of faith was to believe the wafer was bread. If you can believe that, then
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 1, 2012
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        Now that is funny!

         

        I have always felt (tongue in cheek) that the greater mystery of faith was to believe the wafer was bread. If you can believe that, then Christ’s presence is a no-brainer.

         

        Actually, I was kinda thinking that about folks who actually believe that wafers are a valid substitute for bread. 

        John Dornheim

      • Ian Gomersall
        I recall an older priest when i was a curate telling me that an old man started to attend his church aand at the moment of Communion took out his pocket watch
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 5, 2012
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          I recall an older priest when i was a curate telling me that an old man started to attend his church aand at the moment of Communion took out his pocket watch and carefully placed the host in the watch. When this was raised with the elderly gentleman it became clear he was taking It home for his wife who was immobile in bed.

          The priest explained to the gentleman that there were others means by which she could receive Holy Communion.

          Ian
          Tenebrae - on our church blog: www.ourchurchblog.co.uk 
        • Lewis H. Whitaker
          One can hardly fault his piety, or his devotion to his wife, even if it lies outside of the letter of the law. Lew
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 5, 2012
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            One can hardly fault his piety, or his devotion to his wife, even if it lies outside of the letter of the law. 

            Lew




            On Apr 5, 2012, at 7:32 PM, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:

            I recall an older priest when i was a curate telling me that an old man started to attend his church aand at the moment of Communion took out his pocket watch and carefully placed the host in the watch. When this was raised with the elderly gentleman it became clear he was taking It home for his wife who was immobile in bed.

            The priest explained to the gentleman that there were others means by which she could receive Holy Communion.

            Ian
            Tenebrae - on our church blog: www.ourchurchblog.co.uk 
          • David J Strang
            I am old enough to still think of what is now generally called Holy Saturday as Easter Even which was the term in TEC 28 Prayer Book, from the term coined
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 5, 2012
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              I am old enough to still think of what is now generally called "Holy Saturday"
              as "Easter Even" which was the term in TEC 28 Prayer Book, from the
              term coined for the day in the 1529 First Prayer Book of Edward VI.
               
              In TEC 1928 Prayer Book, there is the standard Collect, which is of a frankly
              Easter tone, with the Epistle and Gospel being yet anticipatory of Easter.
               
              TEC '79 Prayer Book calls it "Holy Saturday", and though Collect and
              proper scriptural lessons and Psalm are listed, there is the advisory on
              p283 that "There is no celebration of the Eucharist on this day".  This
              assumes there will be a [restored] Easter Vigil in the evening.
               
              I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
              and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
              this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
              Anglican Prayer Books?
               
              I realize that the RCC was busy doing the Liturgy of the Easter Vigil
              in the morning of Holy Saturday prior to the Pian Reforms.  So a third
              question would be whether there was a RCC custom prior to the
              Pian Reforms of a Mass on this day.
               
               
              David Strang - Just looking out at a lovely full Paschal Moon in the clear
                                    skies of the USA East tonight.


            • Michael Thannisch
              Even is just another word for Eve. Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@sbcglobal.net Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 5, 2012
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                Even is just another word for Eve.


                Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                 
                +Mar Michael Abportus
                Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                http://patriotstatesman.com/
                http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
                http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
                204 Sylvan Ave.
                La Porte, TX 77571
                281-867-9081 (home)
                281-867-0335 (office)
                832-266-8153 (mobile)
                281-867-0576 (fax)


                --- On Thu, 4/5/12, David J Strang <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                From: David J Strang <davidjstrang@...>
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
                To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Thursday, April 5, 2012, 9:12 PM

                 



                I am old enough to still think of what is now generally called "Holy Saturday"
                as "Easter Even" which was the term in TEC 28 Prayer Book, from the
                term coined for the day in the 1529 First Prayer Book of Edward VI.
                 
                In TEC 1928 Prayer Book, there is the standard Collect, which is of a frankly
                Easter tone, with the Epistle and Gospel being yet anticipatory of Easter.
                 
                TEC '79 Prayer Book calls it "Holy Saturday", and though Collect and
                proper scriptural lessons and Psalm are listed, there is the advisory on
                p283 that "There is no celebration of the Eucharist on this day".  This
                assumes there will be a [restored] Easter Vigil in the evening.
                 
                I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
                and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
                this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
                Anglican Prayer Books?
                 
                I realize that the RCC was busy doing the Liturgy of the Easter Vigil
                in the morning of Holy Saturday prior to the Pian Reforms.  So a third
                question would be whether there was a RCC custom prior to the
                Pian Reforms of a Mass on this day.
                 
                 
                David Strang - Just looking out at a lovely full Paschal Moon in the clear
                                      skies of the USA East tonight.


              • Douglas Cowling
                ... The provision in the oldest Prayer Books around Easter shows how inadequate the scholarly knowledge of the history of liturgy was for Cranmer and his
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 6, 2012
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                  Re: [liturgy-l]:  Easter Even. On 4/5/12 10:12 PM, "David J Strang" <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                  I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
                  and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
                  this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
                  Anglican Prayer Books?
                   

                  The provision in the oldest Prayer Books around Easter shows how inadequate the scholarly knowledge of the history of liturgy was for Cranmer and his colleagues, as opposed to the proficiency of the biblical scholars.  Cranmer abolished all of the Holy Week rites from Palm Sunday to Easter Day on the assumption that they were all accretions to the “primitive” church. All of the familiar Holy Week rites were not officially authorized until the new prayer books and alternative service books of the 1970 –80’s.

                  Cranmer’s lack of historical knowledge produced some odd hybrids. The Holy Week sacramentals with their “diverse cringings” were all swept away except for the continuous readings of the four Passion accounts beginning with Matthew on Palm Sunday, continuing with Mark and Luke on Monday to Thursday, and John on Good Friday. Maundy Thursday became the “Thursday before Easter” with no vestiges of the chrism or mandatum masses: the Gospel was the second half of the Lucan Passion

                  Cranmer seems to have been influenced by the immediate tradition of the Easter Vigil on Saturday morning and Easter Day on Sunday: for him there were full masses on Saturday and Sunday.  However, he couldn’t sort out their significance, so he moved the readings of the Vigil to Easter Day and provided new readings chosen to make Easter Even a kind of Burial of Christ commemoration. In this, he was clearly influenced by his memory of the Watch before the Sepulchre with the buried Host which was such a popular devotion and whose loss was sorely lamented by the laity.

                  And even odder. He retained the old lazy medieval three day “short octave” with propers for the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday  after Easter.  In this, he may have been influenced by Luther who similarly kept the three day short octave for Christmas, Easter and Pentecost. Thomas Tallis set the psalms for the three days of Christmas in one of the earliest prototypes of Anglican chant. We can see this provision in the Lutheran calendar as late as the Christmas Oratorio of Bach from the 1730’s where the first three parts of the oratorio are assigned to the Three Days of Christmas.

                  I’ve never been able to discover why these calendrical oddities were maintained even in the 1662 BCP or how they were celebrated in the 16th – late 19th centuries. I suspect that they were considered “festivals” and were marked with the customary Matins, Litany and Ante-Communion.  Someone with more knowledge of the evangelical-tractarian controversies of the late 19th century can tell us if anyone actually celebrated the eucharist on those days. There is an old Urban Ecclesiastical Legend which circulates in the gin-and-lace crowd that those wicked evangelicals celebrated communion on Good Friday and Easter Even just to spite the anglo-catholics. There are certainly examples of the eucharist on Good Friday stemming from Protestant sources.

                  One always thinks of the “Importance of Being Earnest” when discussing ancient practices:

                  Dr. Chasuble. [With a scholar’s shudder.]
                  Believe me, I do not deserve so neologistic a phrase.
                  The precept as well as the practice of the Primitive Church was distinctly against matrimony.

                  Miss Prism. [Sententiously.]
                  That is obviously the reason why the Primitive Church has not lasted up to the present day.

                  Doug Cowling
                  Director of Music
                  St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  Toronto


                • Frank Senn
                  One finds in the old Lutheran books full sets of propers for the Mass or Holy Communion on Good Friday and Holy Saturday.  I ve often wondered if the example
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 7, 2012
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                    One finds in the old Lutheran books full sets of propers for the Mass or Holy Communion on Good Friday and Holy Saturday.  I've often wondered if the example of Zwingli in Zurich in 1525 wasn't influential on all the Reformation traditions.  All Christians in the Middle Ages had been required to receive communion on Easter, first making a confession to a priest.  Zwingli arranged that the whole city would receive communion after penitential services earlier in Holy Week.  So he divided the communicants so that various groupings (youth, women, men - I don't remember in what exact order) received communion on Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter Sunday.  Since communion from the reserved sacrament wasn't an option, as Lutherans and Anglicans took up this practice it is understandable that full propers would be provided for the Mass or Holy Communion on those days.  In the old Lutheran Common Service those propers included, Introit, Epistle, Gradual or Lenten Tract, and Gospel.  In Germany, Good Friday remains the biggest communion day of the year (perhaps because it's also a holiday).  

                    Frank C. Senn

                    --- On Fri, 4/6/12, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                    From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]: Easter Even.
                    To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 2:13 PM

                     

                    On 4/5/12 10:12 PM, "David J Strang" <davidjstrang@...> wrote:

                    I have two questions:  (1) Where does the name "Easter Even" come from,
                    and (2) was there at some point a custom of celebrating the Eucharist during
                    this day, using the Collect, Epistle, and Gospel listed in TEC 28 and earlier
                    Anglican Prayer Books?
                     

                    The provision in the oldest Prayer Books around Easter shows how inadequate the scholarly knowledge of the history of liturgy was for Cranmer and his colleagues, as opposed to the proficiency of the biblical scholars.  Cranmer abolished all of the Holy Week rites from Palm Sunday to Easter Day on the assumption that they were all accretions to the “primitive” church. All of the familiar Holy Week rites were not officially authorized until the new prayer books and alternative service books of the 1970 –80’s.

                    Cranmer’s lack of historical knowledge produced some odd hybrids. The Holy Week sacramentals with their “diverse cringings” were all swept away except for the continuous readings of the four Passion accounts beginning with Matthew on Palm Sunday, continuing with Mark and Luke on Monday to Thursday, and John on Good Friday. Maundy Thursday became the “Thursday before Easter” with no vestiges of the chrism or mandatum masses: the Gospel was the second half of the Lucan Passion

                    Cranmer seems to have been influenced by the immediate tradition of the Easter Vigil on Saturday morning and Easter Day on Sunday: for him there were full masses on Saturday and Sunday.  However, he couldn’t sort out their significance, so he moved the readings of the Vigil to Easter Day and provided new readings chosen to make Easter Even a kind of Burial of Christ commemoration. In this, he was clearly influenced by his memory of the Watch before the Sepulchre with the buried Host which was such a popular devotion and whose loss was sorely lamented by the laity.

                    And even odder. He retained the old lazy medieval three day “short octave” with propers for the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday  after Easter.  In this, he may have been influenced by Luther who similarly kept the three day short octave for Christmas, Easter and Pentecost. Thomas Tallis set the psalms for the three days of Christmas in one of the earliest prototypes of Anglican chant. We can see this provision in the Lutheran calendar as late as the Christmas Oratorio of Bach from the 1730’s where the first three parts of the oratorio are assigned to the Three Days of Christmas.

                    I’ve never been able to discover why these calendrical oddities were maintained even in the 1662 BCP or how they were celebrated in the 16th – late 19th centuries. I suspect that they were considered “festivals” and were marked with the customary Matins, Litany and Ante-Communion.  Someone with more knowledge of the evangelical-tractarian controversies of the late 19th century can tell us if anyone actually celebrated the eucharist on those days. There is an old Urban Ecclesiastical Legend which circulates in the gin-and-lace crowd that those wicked evangelicals celebrated communion on Good Friday and Easter Even just to spite the anglo-catholics. There are certainly examples of the eucharist on Good Friday stemming from Protestant sources.

                    One always thinks of the “Importance of Being Earnest” when discussing ancient practices:

                    Dr. Chasuble. [With a scholar’s shudder.]
                    Believe me, I do not deserve so neologistic a phrase.
                    The precept as well as the practice of the Primitive Church was distinctly against matrimony.

                    Miss Prism. [Sententiously.]
                    That is obviously the reason why the Primitive Church has not lasted up to the present day.

                    Doug Cowling
                    Director of Music
                    St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                    Toronto


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