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Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?

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  • dlewisaao@aol.com
    I know the space, since I saw the liturgy in question on TV and in fact I was received/confirmed there by Cardinal Wuerl on October 9 as a part of the first US
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 17, 2011
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      I know the space, since I saw the liturgy in question on TV and in fact I
      was received/confirmed there by Cardinal Wuerl on October 9 as a part of the
      first US Ordinariate parish moving to the Catholic Church. The space was
      actually the (quite large) crypt chapel - unless there were two services of
      vespers when the pope was in town, the other being in the main church
      upstairs.

      Your point is a good one - Rome would re-baptize only if there were some
      deficiency in the earlier rite, such as a question about it having been
      Trinitarian. But I don't think that the Lutherans and Baptists are into funny
      stuff. So it is more likely that Gingrich was confirmed rather than
      baptized in 2009.

      David

      ---------------------------
      David Lewis
      dlewisaao@...


      In a message dated 12/17/2011 11:53:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      cowling.douglas@... writes:

      From today's NY Times ...

      "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic
      church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the
      Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that included
      his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300
      American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich
      says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a
      Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.
      Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill
      where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes
      assisted the priest as an altar server ..."

      Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,
      presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times
      getting it wrong.

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto








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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lewis H. Whitaker
      A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry Callista? Lew
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 17, 2011
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        A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry Callista?

        Lew




        On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

        > From today's NY Times ...
        >
        > "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic
        > church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the
        > Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that included
        > his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300
        > American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich
        > says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a
        > Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.
        > Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill
        > where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes
        > assisted the priest as an altar server ..."
        >
        > Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,
        > presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times
        > getting it wrong.
        >
        > Doug Cowling
        > Director of Music
        > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        > Toronto
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • dlewisaao@aol.com
        That is a legitimate question. David ... David Lewis dlewisaao@aol.com In a message dated 12/17/2011 12:32:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lhwhitaker@gmail.com
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 17, 2011
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          That is a legitimate question.

          David

          ---------------------------
          David Lewis
          dlewisaao@...


          In a message dated 12/17/2011 12:32:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          lhwhitaker@... writes:

          A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry
          Callista?

          Lew




          On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
          wrote:

          > From today's NY Times ...
          >
          > "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic
          > church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the
          > Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that
          included
          > his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300
          > American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich
          > says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a
          > Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.
          > Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill
          > where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes
          > assisted the priest as an altar server ..."
          >
          > Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,
          > presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times
          > getting it wrong.
          >
          > Doug Cowling
          > Director of Music
          > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
          > Toronto
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
          To write to the moderators, please email:
          liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


          ------------------------------------

          Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
          To write to the moderators, please email:
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Frank Senn
          Or did he not need annulments because those marriages were contracted before he became a Roman Catholic?  I m just asking.  I don t know. I didn t realize
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 17, 2011
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            Or did he not need annulments because those marriages were contracted before he became a Roman Catholic?  I'm just asking.  I don't know.

            I didn't realize Newt was born a Lutheran. Maybe his Gingrich ancestors were from the Salzburgers who settled in Georgia.in the 1730s.  There are some pretty old Lutheran congregations in the Savanna area.

            Given his penchant for pushing the ethical envelop, I'm surprised he didn't stay with the "grace alone" group.  Maybe he felt a need for a more legalistic religious community to help him rein in his appetites.

            Frank C. Senn 



            --- On Sat, 12/17/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

            From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?
            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, December 17, 2011, 11:34 AM
















             









            That is a legitimate question.



            David



            ---------------------------

            David Lewis

            dlewisaao@...



            In a message dated 12/17/2011 12:32:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

            lhwhitaker@... writes:



            A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry

            Callista?



            Lew



            On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>

            wrote:



            > From today's NY Times ...

            >

            > "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic

            > church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the

            > Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that

            included

            > his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300

            > American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich

            > says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a

            > Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.

            > Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill

            > where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes

            > assisted the priest as an altar server ..."

            >

            > Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,

            > presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times

            > getting it wrong.

            >

            > Doug Cowling

            > Director of Music

            > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke

            > Toronto

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            > ------------------------------------

            >

            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/

            To write to the moderators, please email:

            liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

            >

            >

            >



            ------------------------------------



            Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/

            To write to the moderators, please email:

            liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lewis H. Whitaker
            I think he needed the Catholic Church to marry his former mistress. I think that marriages outside the Catholic Church still need to be annulled.
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 17, 2011
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              I think he needed the Catholic Church to marry his former mistress.

              I think that marriages outside the Catholic Church still need to be annulled.






              On Dec 17, 2011, at 10:10 AM, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:

              > Or did he not need annulments because those marriages were contracted before he became a Roman Catholic? I'm just asking. I don't know.
              >
              > I didn't realize Newt was born a Lutheran. Maybe his Gingrich ancestors were from the Salzburgers who settled in Georgia.in the 1730s. There are some pretty old Lutheran congregations in the Savanna area.
              >
              > Given his penchant for pushing the ethical envelop, I'm surprised he didn't stay with the "grace alone" group. Maybe he felt a need for a more legalistic religious community to help him rein in his appetites.
              >
              > Frank C. Senn
              >
              >
              >
              > --- On Sat, 12/17/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
              > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?
              > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Saturday, December 17, 2011, 11:34 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > That is a legitimate question.
              >
              >
              >
              > David
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------
              >
              > David Lewis
              >
              > dlewisaao@...
              >
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 12/17/2011 12:32:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              >
              > lhwhitaker@... writes:
              >
              >
              >
              > A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry
              >
              > Callista?
              >
              >
              >
              > Lew
              >
              >
              >
              > On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
              >
              > wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >> From today's NY Times ...
              >
              >>
              >
              >> "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic
              >
              >> church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the
              >
              >> Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that
              >
              > included
              >
              >> his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300
              >
              >> American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich
              >
              >> says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a
              >
              >> Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.
              >
              >> Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill
              >
              >> where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes
              >
              >> assisted the priest as an altar server ..."
              >
              >>
              >
              >> Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,
              >
              >> presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times
              >
              >> getting it wrong.
              >
              >>
              >
              >> Doug Cowling
              >
              >> Director of Music
              >
              >> St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
              >
              >> Toronto
              >
              >>
              >
              >>
              >
              >>
              >
              >>
              >
              >>
              >
              >>
              >
              >>
              >
              >>
              >
              >> ------------------------------------
              >
              >>
              >
              >> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
              >
              > To write to the moderators, please email:
              >
              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >>
              >
              >>
              >
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
              >
              > To write to the moderators, please email:
              >
              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • SJZiobro@cs.com
              If Newt;s previous marriages were only civil marriages he did not need an annulment. If his first marriage was in a Christian church he would have needed to
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 17, 2011
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                If Newt;s previous marriages were only civil marriages he did not need an annulment. If his first marriage was in a Christian church he would have needed to have gone through the annulment process, but not for his second marriage, because, whether or not it was in a Christian church it would not be considered as even potentially having the sacramental character.

                Stan







                -----Original Message-----
                From: Frank Senn <fcsenn@...>
                To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2011 1:10 pm
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?





                Or did he not need annulments because those marriages were contracted before he became a Roman Catholic? I'm just asking. I don't know.

                I didn't realize Newt was born a Lutheran. Maybe his Gingrich ancestors were from the Salzburgers who settled in Georgia.in the 1730s. There are some pretty old Lutheran congregations in the Savanna area.

                Given his penchant for pushing the ethical envelop, I'm surprised he didn't stay with the "grace alone" group. Maybe he felt a need for a more legalistic religious community to help him rein in his appetites.

                Frank C. Senn

                --- On Sat, 12/17/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?
                To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, December 17, 2011, 11:34 AM



                That is a legitimate question.

                David

                ---------------------------

                David Lewis

                dlewisaao@...

                In a message dated 12/17/2011 12:32:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

                lhwhitaker@... writes:

                A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry

                Callista?

                Lew

                On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>

                wrote:

                > From today's NY Times ...

                >

                > "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic

                > church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the

                > Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that

                included

                > his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300

                > American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich

                > says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a

                > Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.

                > Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill

                > where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes

                > assisted the priest as an altar server ..."

                >

                > Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,

                > presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times

                > getting it wrong.

                >

                > Doug Cowling

                > Director of Music

                > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke

                > Toronto

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                >

                > ------------------------------------

                >

                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/

                To write to the moderators, please email:

                liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

                >

                >

                >

                ------------------------------------

                Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/

                To write to the moderators, please email:

                liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • SJZiobro@cs.com
                If there were no record of either of Newt s baptism prior to becoming a Catholic then, to remove any reasonable doubt, he would have received a conditional
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 17, 2011
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                  If there were no record of either of Newt's baptism prior to becoming a Catholic then, to remove any reasonable doubt, he would have received a conditional baptism. I wouldn't trust the New York Times on this one.

                  Stan







                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Lewis H. Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
                  To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2011 12:32 pm
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?





                  A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry Callista?

                  Lew

                  On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                  > From today's NY Times ...
                  >
                  > "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic
                  > church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the
                  > Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that included
                  > his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300
                  > American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich
                  > says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a
                  > Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.
                  > Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill
                  > where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes
                  > assisted the priest as an altar server ..."
                  >
                  > Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,
                  > presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times
                  > getting it wrong.
                  >
                  > Doug Cowling
                  > Director of Music
                  > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  > Toronto
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >








                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lewis H. Whitaker
                  When one is wealthy and high profile, the rules need not apply.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 17, 2011
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                    When one is wealthy and high profile, the rules need not apply.




                    On Dec 17, 2011, at 5:53 PM, SJZiobro@... wrote:

                    > If Newt;s previous marriages were only civil marriages he did not need an annulment. If his first marriage was in a Christian church he would have needed to have gone through the annulment process, but not for his second marriage, because, whether or not it was in a Christian church it would not be considered as even potentially having the sacramental character.
                    >
                    > Stan
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Frank Senn <fcsenn@...>
                    > To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2011 1:10 pm
                    > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Or did he not need annulments because those marriages were contracted before he became a Roman Catholic? I'm just asking. I don't know.
                    >
                    > I didn't realize Newt was born a Lutheran. Maybe his Gingrich ancestors were from the Salzburgers who settled in Georgia.in the 1730s. There are some pretty old Lutheran congregations in the Savanna area.
                    >
                    > Given his penchant for pushing the ethical envelop, I'm surprised he didn't stay with the "grace alone" group. Maybe he felt a need for a more legalistic religious community to help him rein in his appetites.
                    >
                    > Frank C. Senn
                    >
                    > --- On Sat, 12/17/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?
                    > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Saturday, December 17, 2011, 11:34 AM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > That is a legitimate question.
                    >
                    > David
                    >
                    > ---------------------------
                    >
                    > David Lewis
                    >
                    > dlewisaao@...
                    >
                    > In a message dated 12/17/2011 12:32:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    >
                    > lhwhitaker@... writes:
                    >
                    > A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry
                    >
                    > Callista?
                    >
                    > Lew
                    >
                    > On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                    >
                    > wrote:
                    >
                    >> From today's NY Times ...
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >> "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic
                    >
                    >> church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the
                    >
                    >> Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that
                    >
                    > included
                    >
                    >> his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300
                    >
                    >> American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich
                    >
                    >> says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a
                    >
                    >> Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.
                    >
                    >> Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill
                    >
                    >> where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes
                    >
                    >> assisted the priest as an altar server ..."
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >> Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,
                    >
                    >> presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times
                    >
                    >> getting it wrong.
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >> Doug Cowling
                    >
                    >> Director of Music
                    >
                    >> St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                    >
                    >> Toronto
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >> ------------------------------------
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                    >
                    > To write to the moderators, please email:
                    >
                    > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    >>
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                    >
                    > To write to the moderators, please email:
                    >
                    > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • dlewisaao@aol.com
                    I saw another account that showed that he had been confirmed, not baptized, at St Joseph s on Capitol Hill, DC. In the case of their having been two baptisms
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 17, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I saw another account that showed that he had been confirmed, not baptized,
                      at St Joseph's on Capitol Hill, DC.

                      In the case of their having been two baptisms (presuming that the above
                      report was correct), my guess is that he was properly baptized in the Lutheran
                      Church as an infant but then the Baptists, noting that it was not an
                      action coming from his personal decision, insisted that he be baptized again.
                      Not too long ago I heard that this had happened with someone who had been
                      baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church but then joined a Bible Church.

                      David

                      ---------------------------
                      David Lewis
                      dlewisaao@...


                      In a message dated 12/17/2011 8:58:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      SJZiobro@... writes:

                      If there were no record of either of Newt's baptism prior to becoming a
                      Catholic then, to remove any reasonable doubt, he would have received a
                      conditional baptism. I wouldn't trust the New York Times on this one.

                      Stan







                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Lewis H. Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
                      To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2011 12:32 pm
                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?





                      A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry
                      Callista?

                      Lew

                      On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                      wrote:

                      > From today's NY Times ...
                      >
                      > "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic
                      > church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the
                      > Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that
                      included
                      > his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300
                      > American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich
                      > says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a
                      > Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.
                      > Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill
                      > where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes
                      > assisted the priest as an altar server ..."
                      >
                      > Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,
                      > presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times
                      > getting it wrong.
                      >
                      > Doug Cowling
                      > Director of Music
                      > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                      > Toronto
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                      To write to the moderators, please email:
                      liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      ------------------------------------

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                      To write to the moderators, please email:
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                    • Kevin Riley
                      All churches that believe in believer s baptism would require someone baptised as an infant to be baptised when joining as an adult. Some seem to have no
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 17, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        All churches that believe in 'believer's baptism' would require someone
                        baptised as an infant to be baptised when joining as an adult. Some
                        seem to have no problem with frequent rebaptisms for any and every
                        reason, while others take the Bible's words about 'one baptism' a little
                        more seriously. Most baptist churches I know are reluctant to
                        re-baptise anyone who was baptised by immersion as a adult unless they
                        had clearly left the Christian faith, and even then some prefer a
                        profession of faith rather than actual baptism.

                        Kevin

                        On 18/12/2011 1:10 PM, dlewisaao@... wrote:
                        >
                        > I saw another account that showed that he had been confirmed, not
                        > baptized,
                        > at St Joseph's on Capitol Hill, DC.
                        >
                        > In the case of their having been two baptisms (presuming that the above
                        > report was correct), my guess is that he was properly baptized in the
                        > Lutheran
                        > Church as an infant but then the Baptists, noting that it was not an
                        > action coming from his personal decision, insisted that he be baptized
                        > again.
                        > Not too long ago I heard that this had happened with someone who had been
                        > baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church but then joined a Bible
                        > Church.
                        >
                        > David
                        >
                        > ---------------------------
                        > David Lewis
                        > dlewisaao@... <mailto:dlewisaao%40aol.com>
                        >
                        > In a message dated 12/17/2011 8:58:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        > SJZiobro@... <mailto:SJZiobro%40cs.com> writes:
                        >
                        > If there were no record of either of Newt's baptism prior to becoming a
                        > Catholic then, to remove any reasonable doubt, he would have received a
                        > conditional baptism. I wouldn't trust the New York Times on this one.
                        >
                        > Stan
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Lewis H. Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...
                        > <mailto:lhwhitaker%40gmail.com>>
                        > To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
                        > Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2011 12:32 pm
                        > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?
                        >
                        > A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry
                        > Callista?
                        >
                        > Lew
                        >
                        > On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling
                        > <cowling.douglas@... <mailto:cowling.douglas%40gmail.com>>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > > From today's NY Times ...
                        > >
                        > > "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman
                        > Catholic
                        > > church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the
                        > > Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that
                        > included
                        > > his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI
                        > and 300
                        > > American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich
                        > > says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a
                        > > Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In
                        > 2009, Mr.
                        > > Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill
                        > > where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes
                        > > assisted the priest as an altar server ..."
                        > >
                        > > Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,
                        > > presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times
                        > > getting it wrong.
                        > >
                        > > Doug Cowling
                        > > Director of Music
                        > > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                        > > Toronto
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                        > To write to the moderators, please email:
                        > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo
                        > <mailto:liturgy-l-owner%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                        > To write to the moderators, please email:
                        > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo
                        > <mailto:liturgy-l-owner%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>! Groups Links
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this message.
                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
                        > Version: 2012.0.1890 / Virus Database: 2108/4686 - Release Date: 12/17/11
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • SJZiobro@cs.com
                        I d trust the account relative to his receiving Confirmation. But if there were a baptism it could only be conditional, and that on account of some serious,
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 18, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I'd trust the account relative to his receiving Confirmation. But if there were a baptism it could only be conditional, and that on account of some serious, reasonable doubt about his earlier baptism.

                          Stan







                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: dlewisaao <dlewisaao@...>
                          To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2011 9:10 pm
                          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?





                          I saw another account that showed that he had been confirmed, not baptized,
                          at St Joseph's on Capitol Hill, DC.

                          In the case of their having been two baptisms (presuming that the above
                          report was correct), my guess is that he was properly baptized in the Lutheran
                          Church as an infant but then the Baptists, noting that it was not an
                          action coming from his personal decision, insisted that he be baptized again.
                          Not too long ago I heard that this had happened with someone who had been
                          baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church but then joined a Bible Church.

                          David

                          ---------------------------
                          David Lewis
                          dlewisaao@...

                          In a message dated 12/17/2011 8:58:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          SJZiobro@... writes:

                          If there were no record of either of Newt's baptism prior to becoming a
                          Catholic then, to remove any reasonable doubt, he would have received a
                          conditional baptism. I wouldn't trust the New York Times on this one.

                          Stan

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Lewis H. Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
                          To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2011 12:32 pm
                          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?

                          A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry
                          Callista?

                          Lew

                          On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                          wrote:

                          > From today's NY Times ...
                          >
                          > "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic
                          > church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the
                          > Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that
                          included
                          > his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300
                          > American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich
                          > says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a
                          > Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.
                          > Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill
                          > where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes
                          > assisted the priest as an altar server ..."
                          >
                          > Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,
                          > presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times
                          > getting it wrong.
                          >
                          > Doug Cowling
                          > Director of Music
                          > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                          > Toronto
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                          To write to the moderators, please email:
                          liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          ------------------------------------

                          Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                          To write to the moderators, please email:
                          liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • George Carlson
                          I realize that time and place make for differences, but some 15 years’ ago when my oldest daughter “swam the Tiber” her parish church in England did
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 18, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I realize that time and place make for differences, but some 15 years’ ago when my oldest daughter “swam the Tiber” her parish church in England did baptize her and after much questioning by me she could not identify ANY verbiage (or even commentary from the priest) that made it “conditional” in spite of her having her baptismal record from Christ Church Cathedral (Episcopal) in St. Louis. Now I suspect it was the local priest, perhaps motivated by a sometimes less than cordial relationship between Romans and Anglicans in the UK, or perhaps because her baptism was “in the colonies.” Either way, I was particularly put off by that action.



                            In omnibus pax,

                            George Carlson

                            St. Paul’s (TEC)

                            Murfreesboro, TN



                            From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SJZiobro@...
                            Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:41 PM
                            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?





                            I'd trust the account relative to his receiving Confirmation. But if there were a baptism it could only be conditional, and that on account of some serious, reasonable doubt about his earlier baptism.

                            Stan

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: dlewisaao <dlewisaao@... <mailto:dlewisaao%40aol.com> >
                            To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com> >
                            Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2011 9:10 pm
                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?

                            I saw another account that showed that he had been confirmed, not baptized,
                            at St Joseph's on Capitol Hill, DC.

                            In the case of their having been two baptisms (presuming that the above
                            report was correct), my guess is that he was properly baptized in the Lutheran
                            Church as an infant but then the Baptists, noting that it was not an
                            action coming from his personal decision, insisted that he be baptized again.
                            Not too long ago I heard that this had happened with someone who had been
                            baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church but then joined a Bible Church.

                            David

                            ---------------------------
                            David Lewis
                            dlewisaao@... <mailto:dlewisaao%40aol.com>

                            In a message dated 12/17/2011 8:58:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                            SJZiobro@... <mailto:SJZiobro%40cs.com> writes:

                            If there were no record of either of Newt's baptism prior to becoming a
                            Catholic then, to remove any reasonable doubt, he would have received a
                            conditional baptism. I wouldn't trust the New York Times on this one.

                            Stan

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Lewis H. Whitaker <lhwhitaker@... <mailto:lhwhitaker%40gmail.com> >
                            To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com> >
                            Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2011 12:32 pm
                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?

                            A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry
                            Callista?

                            Lew

                            On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@... <mailto:cowling.douglas%40gmail.com> >
                            wrote:

                            > From today's NY Times ...
                            >
                            > "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic
                            > church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the
                            > Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that
                            included
                            > his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300
                            > American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich
                            > says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a
                            > Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.
                            > Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill
                            > where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes
                            > assisted the priest as an altar server ..."
                            >
                            > Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,
                            > presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times
                            > getting it wrong.
                            >
                            > Doug Cowling
                            > Director of Music
                            > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                            > Toronto
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                            To write to the moderators, please email:
                            liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo <mailto:liturgy-l-owner%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> ! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            ------------------------------------

                            Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                            To write to the moderators, please email:
                            liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo <mailto:liturgy-l-owner%40yahoogroups.comYahoo> ! Groups Links

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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • SJZiobro@cs.com
                            George, As long as the Episcopal priest used the baptismal formulary accepted by Rome, then there is no reason for a baptism, because it would be a rebaptism.
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 18, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              George,

                              As long as the Episcopal priest used the baptismal formulary accepted by Rome, then there is no reason for a baptism, because it would be a rebaptism. I would agree with your concerns here.

                              Stan







                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: George Carlson <vistantn@...>
                              To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sun, Dec 18, 2011 2:35 pm
                              Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?





                              I realize that time and place make for differences, but some 15 years’ ago when my oldest daughter “swam the Tiber” her parish church in England did baptize her and after much questioning by me she could not identify ANY verbiage (or even commentary from the priest) that made it “conditional” in spite of her having her baptismal record from Christ Church Cathedral (Episcopal) in St. Louis. Now I suspect it was the local priest, perhaps motivated by a sometimes less than cordial relationship between Romans and Anglicans in the UK, or perhaps because her baptism was “in the colonies.” Either way, I was particularly put off by that action.

                              In omnibus pax,

                              George Carlson

                              St. Paul’s (TEC)

                              Murfreesboro, TN

                              From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SJZiobro@...
                              Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:41 PM
                              To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?

                              I'd trust the account relative to his receiving Confirmation. But if there were a baptism it could only be conditional, and that on account of some serious, reasonable doubt about his earlier baptism.

                              Stan

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: dlewisaao <dlewisaao@... <mailto:dlewisaao%40aol.com>; >
                              To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>; >
                              Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2011 9:10 pm
                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?

                              I saw another account that showed that he had been confirmed, not baptized,
                              at St Joseph's on Capitol Hill, DC.

                              In the case of their having been two baptisms (presuming that the above
                              report was correct), my guess is that he was properly baptized in the Lutheran
                              Church as an infant but then the Baptists, noting that it was not an
                              action coming from his personal decision, insisted that he be baptized again.
                              Not too long ago I heard that this had happened with someone who had been
                              baptized as an infant in the Catholic Church but then joined a Bible Church.

                              David

                              ---------------------------
                              David Lewis
                              dlewisaao@... <mailto:dlewisaao%40aol.com>;

                              In a message dated 12/17/2011 8:58:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                              SJZiobro@... <mailto:SJZiobro%40cs.com>; writes:

                              If there were no record of either of Newt's baptism prior to becoming a
                              Catholic then, to remove any reasonable doubt, he would have received a
                              conditional baptism. I wouldn't trust the New York Times on this one.

                              Stan

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Lewis H. Whitaker <lhwhitaker@... <mailto:lhwhitaker%40gmail.com>; >
                              To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>; >
                              Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2011 12:32 pm
                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Newt rebaptized?

                              A better question would be, did he get his marriag(es) annulled to marry
                              Callista?

                              Lew

                              On Dec 17, 2011, at 8:53 AM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@... <mailto:cowling.douglas%40gmail.com>; >
                              wrote:

                              > From today's NY Times ...
                              >
                              > "Newt Gingrich sat beneath the soaring dome in the largest Roman Catholic
                              > church in North America, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the
                              > Immaculate Conception in Washington, and listened as a choir that
                              included
                              > his wife sang at an evening vespers service for Pope Benedict XVI and 300
                              > American bishops. That is the moment, three years ago, that Mr. Gingrich
                              > says he decided to become a Roman Catholic, after having been born a
                              > Lutheran and joining the Southern Baptist Church in college. In 2009, Mr.
                              > Gingrich was baptized in the same Catholic parish church on Capitol Hill
                              > where Senator Robert F. Kennedy once attended noonday Mass and sometimes
                              > assisted the priest as an altar server ..."
                              >
                              > Was his Lutheran baptism, presumably as a child, or his Baptist baptism,
                              > presumably as an adult, deemed invalid? Or is this just the NY Times
                              > getting it wrong.
                              >
                              > Doug Cowling
                              > Director of Music
                              > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                              > Toronto
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                              To write to the moderators, please email:
                              liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo <mailto:liturgy-l-owner%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>; ! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                              Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                              To write to the moderators, please email:
                              liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo <mailto:liturgy-l-owner%40yahoogroups.comYahoo>; ! Groups Links

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