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Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses

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  • Scott Knitter
    Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle them, at least!),
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
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      Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the
      giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle
      them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of
      refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the
      people are really asked to sing is the refrain.

      RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,
      stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.
      Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as
      the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the
      hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the
      collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a
      hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC
      rite.

      On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
      > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and
      > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two
      > practices:
      >
      >
      > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very
      > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as well as
      > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are standing or
      > kneeling
      >
      >
      > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the  people
      > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing  and
      > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing varying
      > parts of the hymn at best
      >
      >
      > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really prevent
      >  it from happening; what am I missing?
    • dlewisaao@aol.com
      The hymns I ve heard during Communion are regular rather than refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming forward to receive
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than
        refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming forward to
        receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing something
        and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most people
        are back in their pews.

        In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of a
        difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir
        anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which case a
        hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,
        ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to better enable
        people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the
        people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.

        David


        In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        scott.knitter@... writes:

        Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the
        giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle
        them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of
        refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the
        people are really asked to sing is the refrain.

        RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,
        stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.
        Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as
        the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the
        hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the
        collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a
        hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC
        rite.

        On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
        > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and
        > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two
        > practices:
        >
        >
        > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very
        > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as
        well as
        > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are
        standing or
        > kneeling
        >
        >
        > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the people
        > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing
        and
        > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing
        varying
        > parts of the hymn at best
        >
        >
        > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really
        prevent
        > it from happening; what am I missing?


        ------------------------------------

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        To write to the moderators, please email:
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Frank Senn
        Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice since Vatican II.  Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance (Introit),
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
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          Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice since Vatican II.  Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio).  Having an anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem" is a corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to sing.  I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note.  In African the choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.

          Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.  Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and the choir is in place in the balcony.  At a service at which I expect only a handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion hymn, just have the organist play.

          Frank C. Senn

          --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

          From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM
















           









          The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than

          refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming forward to

          receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing something

          and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most people

          are back in their pews.



          In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of a

          difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir

          anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which case a

          hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,

          ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to better enable

          people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the

          people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.



          David





          In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

          scott.knitter@... writes:



          Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the

          giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle

          them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of

          refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the

          people are really asked to sing is the refrain.



          RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,

          stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.

          Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as

          the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the

          hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the

          collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a

          hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC

          rite.



          On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

          > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and

          > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two

          > practices:

          >

          >

          > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very

          > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as

          well as

          > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are

          standing or

          > kneeling

          >

          >

          > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the people

          > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing

          and

          > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing

          varying

          > parts of the hymn at best

          >

          >

          > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really

          prevent

          > it from happening; what am I missing?



          ------------------------------------



          Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/

          To write to the moderators, please email:

          liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dlewisaao@aol.com
          I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung? In my former
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of
            Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung?

            In my former Anglo-Catholic parish, the choir would indeed sing the
            Communio antiphon and would then sing an anthem/motet as people were coming
            forward to receive Communion. The practical purpose of the post-Communion hymn
            was to cover ablutions.

            (I might add that both an Introit and Opening Hymn were used, the first to
            cover the entrance of the sanctuary party and the latter to cover the
            initial censing. By the book, one of the two would be redundant, but
            practicality sets in.)

            I'm still puzzled about singing when the people are not all doing the same
            thing in the same place or circumstances when a part of their worship would
            be interrupted.

            David


            In a message dated 11/3/2011 11:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
            fcsenn@... writes:

            Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice
            since Vatican II. Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance
            (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio). Having an
            anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem" is a
            corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to
            sing. I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note. In African the
            choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.

            Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor
            or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.
            Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come
            forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and the
            choir is in place in the balcony. At a service at which I expect only a
            handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion hymn,
            just have the organist play.

            Frank C. Senn

            --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

            From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM


























            The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than

            refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming
            forward to

            receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing
            something

            and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most
            people

            are back in their pews.



            In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of
            a

            difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir

            anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which case
            a

            hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,

            ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to
            better enable

            people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the

            people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.



            David





            In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

            scott.knitter@... writes:



            Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the

            giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle

            them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of

            refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the

            people are really asked to sing is the refrain.



            RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,

            stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.

            Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as

            the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the

            hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the

            collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a

            hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC

            rite.



            On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

            > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and

            > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two

            > practices:

            >

            >

            > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very

            > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as

            well as

            > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are

            standing or

            > kneeling

            >

            >

            > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the people

            > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing


            and

            > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing

            varying

            > parts of the hymn at best

            >

            >

            > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really

            prevent

            > it from happening; what am I missing?



            ------------------------------------



            Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/

            To write to the moderators, please email:

            liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
            To write to the moderators, please email:
            liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lewis Whitaker
            David: Again, you d better put Rome on the speed-dial. It sounds like you ll need it. Lew ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              David:

              Again, you'd better put Rome on the speed-dial. It sounds like you'll need
              it.

              Lew


              On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 11:42 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

              > I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of
              > Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung?
              >
              > In my former Anglo-Catholic parish, the choir would indeed sing the
              > Communio antiphon and would then sing an anthem/motet as people were coming
              > forward to receive Communion. The practical purpose of the post-Communion
              > hymn
              > was to cover ablutions.
              >
              > (I might add that both an Introit and Opening Hymn were used, the first to
              > cover the entrance of the sanctuary party and the latter to cover the
              > initial censing. By the book, one of the two would be redundant, but
              > practicality sets in.)
              >
              > I'm still puzzled about singing when the people are not all doing the same
              > thing in the same place or circumstances when a part of their worship would
              > be interrupted.
              >
              > David
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 11/3/2011 11:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              > fcsenn@... writes:
              >
              > Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice
              > since Vatican II. Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance
              > (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio).
              > Having an
              > anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem"
              > is a
              > corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to
              > sing. I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note. In African the
              > choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.
              >
              > Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor
              > or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.
              > Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come
              > forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and
              > the
              > choir is in place in the balcony. At a service at which I expect only a
              > handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion
              > hymn,
              > just have the organist play.
              >
              > Frank C. Senn
              >
              > --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
              > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
              > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than
              >
              > refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming
              > forward to
              >
              > receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing
              > something
              >
              > and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most
              > people
              >
              > are back in their pews.
              >
              >
              >
              > In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of
              > a
              >
              > difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir
              >
              > anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which case
              > a
              >
              > hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,
              >
              > ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to
              > better enable
              >
              > people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the
              >
              > people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.
              >
              >
              >
              > David
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              >
              > scott.knitter@... writes:
              >
              >
              >
              > Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the
              >
              > giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle
              >
              > them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of
              >
              > refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the
              >
              > people are really asked to sing is the refrain.
              >
              >
              >
              > RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,
              >
              > stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.
              >
              > Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as
              >
              > the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the
              >
              > hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the
              >
              > collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a
              >
              > hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC
              >
              > rite.
              >
              >
              >
              > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
              >
              > > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and
              >
              > > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these
              > two
              >
              > > practices:
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very
              >
              > > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as
              >
              > well as
              >
              > > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are
              >
              > standing or
              >
              > > kneeling
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the
              > people
              >
              > > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing
              >
              >
              > and
              >
              > > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing
              >
              > varying
              >
              > > parts of the hymn at best
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really
              >
              > prevent
              >
              > > it from happening; what am I missing?
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
              >
              > To write to the moderators, please email:
              >
              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
              > To write to the moderators, please email:
              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Frank Senn
              In the Catholic tradition, the people sang hymns during Mass, not as an integral part of Mass.  This was a popular custom in Germany. (Actually there were
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                In the Catholic tradition, the people sang hymns during Mass, not as an integral part of Mass.  This was a popular custom in Germany. (Actually there were hymns sung as an integral part of the Mass, but they were called canticles, like Gloria in excelsis, Agnus Dei.)  In the West strophic hymns were not an integral part of the Mass, but they were/are an integral part of the prayer offices.  The Divine Office was the home of Latin hymnody from Ambrose on.

                Hymns have often been used to cover movement, so the practice of singing while people are going somewhere (or at least some of the people are moving about) is not new.  Some hymns were actually written for processions (e.g. "All glory, laud, and honor" on Palm Sunday).

                In the West it was the Lutherans who first made singing strophic hymns an integral part of the mass.  Chorales were substituted for parts of the Mass, such as the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei.  The gradual was often replaced by a Hauptlied (the proper hymn).

                In the East, hymns are an integral part of the Divine Liturgy, e.g. Trisagion, O Monogenes, Cherubikon.

                Frank C. Senn

                --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
                To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:42 AM








                 









                I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of

                Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung?



                In my former Anglo-Catholic parish, the choir would indeed sing the

                Communio antiphon and would then sing an anthem/motet as people were coming

                forward to receive Communion. The practical purpose of the post-Communion hymn

                was to cover ablutions.



                (I might add that both an Introit and Opening Hymn were used, the first to

                cover the entrance of the sanctuary party and the latter to cover the

                initial censing. By the book, one of the two would be redundant, but

                practicality sets in.)



                I'm still puzzled about singing when the people are not all doing the same

                thing in the same place or circumstances when a part of their worship would

                be interrupted.



                David





                In a message dated 11/3/2011 11:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

                fcsenn@... writes:



                Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice

                since Vatican II. Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance

                (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio). Having an

                anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem" is a

                corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to

                sing. I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note. In African the

                choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.



                Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor

                or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.

                Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come

                forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and the

                choir is in place in the balcony. At a service at which I expect only a

                handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion hymn,

                just have the organist play.



                Frank C. Senn



                --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>

                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses

                To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

                Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM



                The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than



                refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming

                forward to



                receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing

                something



                and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most

                people



                are back in their pews.



                In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of

                a



                difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir



                anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which case

                a



                hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,



                ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to

                better enable



                people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the



                people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.



                David



                In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,



                scott.knitter@... writes:



                Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the



                giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle



                them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of



                refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the



                people are really asked to sing is the refrain.



                RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,



                stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.



                Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as



                the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the



                hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the



                collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a



                hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC



                rite.



                On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and



                > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two



                > practices:



                >



                >



                > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very



                > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as



                well as



                > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are



                standing or



                > kneeling



                >



                >



                > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the people



                > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing





                and



                > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing



                varying



                > parts of the hymn at best



                >



                >



                > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really



                prevent



                > it from happening; what am I missing?



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              • dlewisaao@aol.com
                Yes, I ve also heard that the Germans have been exemplary over the centuries to include hymnody in Eucharistic liturgy in particular. I definitely agree with
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Yes, I've also heard that the Germans have been exemplary over the
                  centuries to include hymnody in Eucharistic liturgy in particular.

                  I definitely agree with the use of hymns to cover movement when everyone is
                  doing the same thing, such as when people are in a procession together and
                  thus the hymn is a part of their corporate worship, everyone in theory
                  being able to sing at the same time. The difference with the "Communion
                  procession" is that different people are doing different things during the
                  period of the hymn, making it difficult to be a corporate offering.

                  David


                  In a message dated 11/3/2011 1:29:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                  fcsenn@... writes:

                  In the Catholic tradition, the people sang hymns during Mass, not as an
                  integral part of Mass. This was a popular custom in Germany. (Actually there
                  were hymns sung as an integral part of the Mass, but they were called
                  canticles, like Gloria in excelsis, Agnus Dei.) In the West strophic hymns
                  were not an integral part of the Mass, but they were/are an integral part of
                  the prayer offices. The Divine Office was the home of Latin hymnody from
                  Ambrose on.

                  Hymns have often been used to cover movement, so the practice of singing
                  while people are going somewhere (or at least some of the people are moving
                  about) is not new. Some hymns were actually written for processions (e.g.
                  "All glory, laud, and honor" on Palm Sunday).

                  In the West it was the Lutherans who first made singing strophic hymns an
                  integral part of the mass. Chorales were substituted for parts of the
                  Mass, such as the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. The gradual
                  was often replaced by a Hauptlied (the proper hymn).

                  In the East, hymns are an integral part of the Divine Liturgy, e.g.
                  Trisagion, O Monogenes, Cherubikon.

                  Frank C. Senn

                  --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                  From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
                  To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:42 AM


















                  I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of

                  Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung?



                  In my former Anglo-Catholic parish, the choir would indeed sing the

                  Communio antiphon and would then sing an anthem/motet as people were
                  coming

                  forward to receive Communion. The practical purpose of the post-Communion
                  hymn

                  was to cover ablutions.



                  (I might add that both an Introit and Opening Hymn were used, the first to


                  cover the entrance of the sanctuary party and the latter to cover the

                  initial censing. By the book, one of the two would be redundant, but

                  practicality sets in.)



                  I'm still puzzled about singing when the people are not all doing the same


                  thing in the same place or circumstances when a part of their worship
                  would

                  be interrupted.



                  David





                  In a message dated 11/3/2011 11:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

                  fcsenn@... writes:



                  Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice

                  since Vatican II. Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance

                  (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio).
                  Having an

                  anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem"
                  is a

                  corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to

                  sing. I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note. In African
                  the

                  choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.



                  Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor

                  or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.

                  Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come

                  forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and
                  the

                  choir is in place in the balcony. At a service at which I expect only a

                  handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion
                  hymn,

                  just have the organist play.



                  Frank C. Senn



                  --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                  From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>

                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses

                  To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

                  Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM



                  The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than



                  refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming

                  forward to



                  receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing

                  something



                  and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most

                  people



                  are back in their pews.



                  In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of

                  a



                  difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir



                  anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which
                  case

                  a



                  hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,



                  ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to

                  better enable



                  people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the



                  people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.



                  David



                  In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,



                  scott.knitter@... writes:



                  Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the



                  giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle



                  them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of



                  refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the



                  people are really asked to sing is the refrain.



                  RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,



                  stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.



                  Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as



                  the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the



                  hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the



                  collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a



                  hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC



                  rite.



                  On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                  > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and



                  > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these
                  two



                  > practices:



                  >



                  >



                  > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very



                  > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as



                  well as



                  > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are



                  standing or



                  > kneeling



                  >



                  >



                  > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the
                  people



                  > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and
                  standing





                  and



                  > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing



                  varying



                  > parts of the hymn at best



                  >



                  >



                  > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really



                  prevent



                  > it from happening; what am I missing?



                  ------------------------------------



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                • Scott Knitter
                  I think very highly of the hymnal Gotteslob (Praise of God), which is rather universally used in German-language RC Masses. (Not to mention Christuslob, its
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I think very highly of the hymnal Gotteslob (Praise of God), which is
                    rather universally used in German-language RC Masses. (Not to mention
                    Christuslob, its counterpart for the day hours of the Liturgy of the
                    Hours.) Benedictines in German-speaking areas also have excellent
                    office books. I often wish there were volumes of similar quality over
                    here.

                    I sometimes watch the Masses broadcast on zdf.de (Germany's second TV
                    network), on the program Gottesdienst. They alternate between RC and
                    Lutheran (Evangelisch). The RC ones always use Gotteslob (and give the
                    numbers for singing along at home) and the Lutheran ones almost always
                    use EG (Evangelisches Gesangbuch). I like the consistency. (Although
                    as far as the broadcast services go, the Lutheran ones are too
                    theme-oriented and seemingly allergic to the standard liturgy.)

                    On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 1:07 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
                    > Yes, I've also heard that the Germans have been exemplary over the
                    > centuries to include hymnody in Eucharistic liturgy in particular.
                  • Michael Thannisch
                    That s why I like to keep communion hymns to those the congregation knows well, that way they can participate, no matter what else they may be doing. Shalom
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      That's why I like to keep communion hymns to those the congregation knows well, that way they can participate, no matter what else they may be doing.

                      Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                      http://patriotstatesman.com/
                      http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
                      http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
                      http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan Ave.
                      La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)
                      281-867-0335 (office)
                      832-266-8153 (mobile)
                      281-867-0576 (fax)


                      --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                      From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
                      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 1:07 PM
















                       









                      Yes, I've also heard that the Germans have been exemplary over the

                      centuries to include hymnody in Eucharistic liturgy in particular.



                      I definitely agree with the use of hymns to cover movement when everyone is

                      doing the same thing, such as when people are in a procession together and

                      thus the hymn is a part of their corporate worship, everyone in theory

                      being able to sing at the same time. The difference with the "Communion

                      procession" is that different people are doing different things during the

                      period of the hymn, making it difficult to be a corporate offering.



                      David





                      In a message dated 11/3/2011 1:29:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

                      fcsenn@... writes:



                      In the Catholic tradition, the people sang hymns during Mass, not as an

                      integral part of Mass. This was a popular custom in Germany. (Actually there

                      were hymns sung as an integral part of the Mass, but they were called

                      canticles, like Gloria in excelsis, Agnus Dei.) In the West strophic hymns

                      were not an integral part of the Mass, but they were/are an integral part of

                      the prayer offices. The Divine Office was the home of Latin hymnody from

                      Ambrose on.



                      Hymns have often been used to cover movement, so the practice of singing

                      while people are going somewhere (or at least some of the people are moving

                      about) is not new. Some hymns were actually written for processions (e.g.

                      "All glory, laud, and honor" on Palm Sunday).



                      In the West it was the Lutherans who first made singing strophic hymns an

                      integral part of the mass. Chorales were substituted for parts of the

                      Mass, such as the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. The gradual

                      was often replaced by a Hauptlied (the proper hymn).



                      In the East, hymns are an integral part of the Divine Liturgy, e.g.

                      Trisagion, O Monogenes, Cherubikon.



                      Frank C. Senn



                      --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                      From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>

                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses

                      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

                      Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:42 AM



                      I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of



                      Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung?



                      In my former Anglo-Catholic parish, the choir would indeed sing the



                      Communio antiphon and would then sing an anthem/motet as people were

                      coming



                      forward to receive Communion. The practical purpose of the post-Communion

                      hymn



                      was to cover ablutions.



                      (I might add that both an Introit and Opening Hymn were used, the first to





                      cover the entrance of the sanctuary party and the latter to cover the



                      initial censing. By the book, one of the two would be redundant, but



                      practicality sets in.)



                      I'm still puzzled about singing when the people are not all doing the same





                      thing in the same place or circumstances when a part of their worship

                      would



                      be interrupted.



                      David



                      In a message dated 11/3/2011 11:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,



                      fcsenn@... writes:



                      Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice



                      since Vatican II. Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance



                      (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio).

                      Having an



                      anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem"

                      is a



                      corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to



                      sing. I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note. In African

                      the



                      choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.



                      Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor



                      or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.



                      Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come



                      forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and

                      the



                      choir is in place in the balcony. At a service at which I expect only a



                      handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion

                      hymn,



                      just have the organist play.



                      Frank C. Senn



                      --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                      From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>



                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses



                      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com



                      Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM



                      The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than



                      refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming



                      forward to



                      receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing



                      something



                      and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most



                      people



                      are back in their pews.



                      In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of



                      a



                      difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir



                      anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which

                      case



                      a



                      hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,



                      ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to



                      better enable



                      people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the



                      people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.



                      David



                      In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,



                      scott.knitter@... writes:



                      Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the



                      giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle



                      them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of



                      refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the



                      people are really asked to sing is the refrain.



                      RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,



                      stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.



                      Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as



                      the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the



                      hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the



                      collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a



                      hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC



                      rite.



                      On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                      > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and



                      > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these

                      two



                      > practices:



                      >



                      >



                      > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very



                      > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as



                      well as



                      > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are



                      standing or



                      > kneeling



                      >



                      >



                      > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the

                      people



                      > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and

                      standing



                      and



                      > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing



                      varying



                      > parts of the hymn at best



                      >



                      >



                      > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really



                      prevent



                      > it from happening; what am I missing?



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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Douglas Cowling
                      On 11/3/11 11:30 AM, Frank Senn wrote: Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice since Vatican II.
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On 11/3/11 11:30 AM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...> wrote:

                        Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice
                        since Vatican II.


                        That's really not true in Germany and Austria, is it? German Catholics were
                        singing vernacular hymns in place of the Proper and Ordinary for a century
                        before Luther normalized the practice and "invented" chorale-singing (the
                        clergy obeyed the rubrics by reciting the Latin texts sotto voce as they did
                        at Catholic high mass)

                        There were vernacular German hymn books throughout the 16th and 17th
                        centuries for singing during mass. Michael Haydn and Franz Schubert's
                        German masses were part of this Singmesse tradition that continued right up
                        to the time of the Second Council and provided a 500 year model for the
                        post-conciliar masses.

                        The Irish-American bishops hated this tradition. Cardinal Cushing called the
                        Austrian masses "noisy". I suspect hymn-singing is ethnically determined.
                        German and Polish parishes sing heartily. Irish-Americans have no music
                        tradition popular or conservative. Edward Kennedy's funeral was the worst
                        funeral mass I have ever heard.

                        Doug Cowling
                        Director of Music
                        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                        Toronto
                      • William Renwick
                        Doug s comments about German Catholics singing hymns while the priest said the proper texts sotto voce is very interesting. It seems to me that in a
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Doug's comments about German Catholics singing hymns while the priest said the proper texts sotto voce is very interesting.

                          It seems to me that in a "traditional" mass i.e. tridentine, the texts proper to the mass are those said by the priest; the fact that a choir might be singing the same texts at the same time (by which I mean the plainsong propers and ordinary) is nice, but is almost a coincidence.

                          And so I can easily understand the european tradition of a sung mass (think Haydn or Mozart) where all this beautiful music is going on at one end of the church, while the mass is going on at the other end of the church, and they are pretty much in their own worlds; the benedictus can be extended because at that time the priest is just continuing with the canon.

                          Where we sing chant the priest says the proper texts while we sing them--of course he goes much quicker, but then waits till we are finished before continuing with the next part; but overall it is the same thing.

                          I think with a bit of practice one could get the timing just about right so that there would be continuous singing at one end of the church and continuous sotto voce speech at the other end!

                          William Renwick
                          renwick@...
                          School of the Arts
                          McMaster University
                          Hamilton Ontario CANADA L8S 4M2 http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~renwick/wr.htm
                        • Douglas Cowling
                          On 11/3/11 10:46 PM, William Renwick wrote: I think with a bit of practice one could get the timing just about right so
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On 11/3/11 10:46 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...>
                            wrote:

                            I think with a bit of practice one could get the timing just about right so
                            that there would be continuous singing at one end of the church and
                            continuous sotto voce speech at the other end!


                            Et voila Louis XIV! The Sun King grew distracted by the longeurs of high
                            mass. At Versailles, the daily mass in the Chapel Royal was not a high mass.
                            Rather the priest whispered a messe basse at the altar while the choir sang
                            an extended grand motet for the delictation/entertainment of the court.

                            Here's one of my favourite Bourbon grand motets ... Catch the period
                            French pronunciation of Latin.

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b02WtXB_Xxk

                            Church was a lot more fun.

                            Doug Cowling
                            Director of Music
                            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                            Toronto
                          • Frank Senn
                            I was making a distinction between singing DURING mass and singing AS A PART of mass.  Yes, the Germanic Catholics had a wonderful tradition of singing while
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
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                              I was making a distinction between singing DURING mass and singing AS A PART of mass.  Yes, the Germanic Catholics had a wonderful tradition of singing while mass was being celebrated.  It falls into the category of popular devotion, like saying the Rosary.  What Luther did in his German Mass was turn the ordinary and propers over to the congregation in the form of chorales (based on medieval chants and sequences).  In his Latin mass, however, the choir continued singing the ordinary and propers in plainchant or polyphonic settings.  Hymn singing framed the pulpit office. Melanchthon testified in his Apology to the Augsburg Confession, article 24 on the Mass, that Lutherans were "falsely accused of abolishing the mass."  But he noted that hymns in German were added to the parts sung in Latin in order to teach the people.

                              Frank C. Senn

                              --- On Thu, 11/3/11, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                              From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
                              To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 9:19 PM








                               









                              On 11/3/11 11:30 AM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...> wrote:



                              Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice

                              since Vatican II.



                              That's really not true in Germany and Austria, is it? German Catholics were

                              singing vernacular hymns in place of the Proper and Ordinary for a century

                              before Luther normalized the practice and "invented" chorale-singing (the

                              clergy obeyed the rubrics by reciting the Latin texts sotto voce as they did

                              at Catholic high mass)



                              There were vernacular German hymn books throughout the 16th and 17th

                              centuries for singing during mass. Michael Haydn and Franz Schubert's

                              German masses were part of this Singmesse tradition that continued right up

                              to the time of the Second Council and provided a 500 year model for the

                              post-conciliar masses.



                              The Irish-American bishops hated this tradition. Cardinal Cushing called the

                              Austrian masses "noisy". I suspect hymn-singing is ethnically determined.

                              German and Polish parishes sing heartily. Irish-Americans have no music

                              tradition popular or conservative. Edward Kennedy's funeral was the worst

                              funeral mass I have ever heard.



                              Doug Cowling

                              Director of Music

                              St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke

                              Toronto






















                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Dwight J. Penas
                              I ve lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this question (I know how to do it; it s just not working for me today -- and I m in a bad
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
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                                I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today -- and I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I was reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of the cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder, shoulder, sternum (again).

                                Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about this, but that was just so much **.



                                Peace
                                Dwight Penas
                                Minneapolis
                                ____________________________
                                "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.












                                Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use





                                .







                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • John Dornheim
                                I think that answering your question might just lead to another my/our way is better than your way which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure that there
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
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                                  I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our way
                                  is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                  that there is a single/"correct" way.

                                  John Dornheim

                                  On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:

                                  > **
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this
                                  > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today -- and
                                  > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I was
                                  > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of the
                                  > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder, shoulder,
                                  > sternum (again).
                                  >
                                  > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                  > this, but that was just so much **.
                                  >
                                  > Peace
                                  > Dwight Penas
                                  > Minneapolis
                                  > ____________________________
                                  > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                  >
                                  > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > .
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  --
                                  �If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood
                                  and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                  the endless immensity of the sea.� Antoine de Saint-Exuperay

                                  Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Lewis Whitaker
                                  I don t see anything indicating a this way is best but rather an honest question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be expected to
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
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                                    I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                    question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                    expected to "behave."

                                    My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                    developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                    cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                    reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the rosary.

                                    But that's just my opinion.

                                    Lew


                                    On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim <johndornheim@...>wrote:

                                    > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our way
                                    > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                    > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                    >
                                    > John Dornheim
                                    >
                                    > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > **
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this
                                    > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today -- and
                                    > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I was
                                    > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of the
                                    > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder, shoulder,
                                    > > sternum (again).
                                    > >
                                    > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                    > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                    > >
                                    > > Peace
                                    > > Dwight Penas
                                    > > Minneapolis
                                    > > ____________________________
                                    > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                    > >
                                    > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > .
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > �If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood
                                    > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                    > the endless immensity of the sea.� Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                    >
                                    > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                                    > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • dlewisaao@aol.com
                                    All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left and the Western Church does it the other way around! David In a message dated
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
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                                      All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left
                                      and the Western Church does it the other way around!

                                      David


                                      In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                      lhwhitaker@... writes:

                                      I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                      question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                      expected to "behave."

                                      My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                      developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                      cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                      reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the rosary.

                                      But that's just my opinion.

                                      Lew


                                      On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim
                                      <johndornheim@...>wrote:

                                      > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our
                                      way
                                      > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                      > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                      >
                                      > John Dornheim
                                      >
                                      > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > **
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this
                                      > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --
                                      and
                                      > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I
                                      was
                                      > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of
                                      the
                                      > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,
                                      shoulder,
                                      > > sternum (again).
                                      > >
                                      > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                      > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                      > >
                                      > > Peace
                                      > > Dwight Penas
                                      > > Minneapolis
                                      > > ____________________________
                                      > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                      > >
                                      > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > .
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                                      wood
                                      > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                      > the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                      >
                                      > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                                      > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                      To write to the moderators, please email:
                                      liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Lewis Whitaker
                                      Now *THAT* is a clear question of who s right, or at least it is from the Orthodox POV. There used to be a question on the OCA website that asked about the
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
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                                        Now *THAT* is a clear question of "who's right," or at least it is from the
                                        Orthodox POV.

                                        There used to be a question on the OCA website that asked about the
                                        difference, and why the west does it one way and the east the other. The
                                        respondent (an Orthodox priest) said "Good question. We're not sure why the
                                        West changed it..."

                                        The Orthodox, dontcha know, are never wrong.

                                        Lew

                                        On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:22 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                                        > All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left
                                        > and the Western Church does it the other way around!
                                        >
                                        > David
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                        > lhwhitaker@... writes:
                                        >
                                        > I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                        > question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                        > expected to "behave."
                                        >
                                        > My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                        > developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                        > cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                        > reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the
                                        > rosary.
                                        >
                                        > But that's just my opinion.
                                        >
                                        > Lew
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim
                                        > <johndornheim@...>wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our
                                        > way
                                        > > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                        > > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                        > >
                                        > > John Dornheim
                                        > >
                                        > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > > **
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to
                                        > this
                                        > > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --
                                        > and
                                        > > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I
                                        > was
                                        > > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of
                                        > the
                                        > > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,
                                        > shoulder,
                                        > > > sternum (again).
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                        > > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Peace
                                        > > > Dwight Penas
                                        > > > Minneapolis
                                        > > > ____________________________
                                        > > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > .
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --
                                        > > �If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                                        > wood
                                        > > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                        > > the endless immensity of the sea.� Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                        > >
                                        > > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ------------------------------------
                                        > >
                                        > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,
                                        > please email:
                                        > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                        > To write to the moderators, please email:
                                        > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                                        > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Lewis Whitaker
                                        Just to be clear, who is right was MY interpretation, not David s. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
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                                          Just to be clear, "who is right" was MY interpretation, not David's.



                                          On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

                                          > Now *THAT* is a clear question of "who's right," or at least it is from
                                          > the Orthodox POV.
                                          >
                                          > There used to be a question on the OCA website that asked about the
                                          > difference, and why the west does it one way and the east the other. The
                                          > respondent (an Orthodox priest) said "Good question. We're not sure why the
                                          > West changed it..."
                                          >
                                          > The Orthodox, dontcha know, are never wrong.
                                          >
                                          > Lew
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:22 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >> All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left
                                          >> and the Western Church does it the other way around!
                                          >>
                                          >> David
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                          >> lhwhitaker@... writes:
                                          >>
                                          >> I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                          >> question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                          >> expected to "behave."
                                          >>
                                          >> My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                          >> developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                          >> cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                          >> reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the
                                          >> rosary.
                                          >>
                                          >> But that's just my opinion.
                                          >>
                                          >> Lew
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim
                                          >> <johndornheim@...>wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >> > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our
                                          >> way
                                          >> > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                          >> > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                          >> >
                                          >> > John Dornheim
                                          >> >
                                          >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>
                                          >> wrote:
                                          >> >
                                          >> > > **
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to
                                          >> this
                                          >> > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --
                                          >> and
                                          >> > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I
                                          >> was
                                          >> > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of
                                          >> the
                                          >> > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,
                                          >> shoulder,
                                          >> > > sternum (again).
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                          >> > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > > Peace
                                          >> > > Dwight Penas
                                          >> > > Minneapolis
                                          >> > > ____________________________
                                          >> > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > > .
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > >
                                          >> > >
                                          >> >
                                          >> >
                                          >> >
                                          >> > --
                                          >> > �If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                                          >> wood
                                          >> > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn
                                          >> for
                                          >> > the endless immensity of the sea.� Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                          >> >
                                          >> > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                          >> >
                                          >> >
                                          >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >> >
                                          >> >
                                          >> >
                                          >> > ------------------------------------
                                          >> >
                                          >> > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,
                                          >> please email:
                                          >> > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                          >> >
                                          >> >
                                          >> >
                                          >> >
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> ------------------------------------
                                          >>
                                          >> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                          >> To write to the moderators, please email:
                                          >> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> ------------------------------------
                                          >>
                                          >> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                                          >> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • bliesem@csl.edu
                                          A 2004 book by Bert Ghezzi, entitled, The sign of the cross has a chapter entitled, A short history of the sign of the cross . There is also the 1907 book
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
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                                            A 2004 book by Bert Ghezzi, entitled, "The sign of the cross" has a chapter entitled, "A short history of the sign of the cross".

                                            There is also the 1907 book by Ernest Beresford Cooke, entitled, "The sign of the cross in the western liturgies".

                                            Mark J. Bliese
                                            Saint Louis, Mo.

                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                            > [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dwight J. Penas
                                            > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 9:08 AM
                                            > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an
                                            > answer to this question (I know how to do it; it's just not
                                            > working for me today -- and I'm in a bad mood to start).
                                            > After watching *The Way* last evening, I was reminded that I
                                            > don't know whence the practice of making the sign of the
                                            > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest,
                                            > shoulder, shoulder, sternum (again).
                                            >
                                            > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a
                                            > friend about this, but that was just so much **.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Peace
                                            > Dwight Penas
                                            > Minneapolis
                                            > ____________________________
                                            > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest * Unsubscribe * Terms of Use
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > .
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the
                                            > moderators, please email:
                                            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • James
                                            Actually, John, in making the sign of the cross there is the Right way, the Left way and Our way.... I have seen so many variants of it used over the years,
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Nov 5, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Actually, John, in making the sign of the cross there is the Right way, the Left way and Our way....

                                              I have seen so many variants of it used over the years, including punching the sternum three times at the end, that I'm just happy that Christians sign themselves.

                                              Rdr. James

                                              --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, John Dornheim <johndornheim@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our way
                                              > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                              > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                              >
                                              > John Dornheim
                                              >
                                              > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > **
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this
                                              > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today -- and
                                              > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I was
                                              > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of the
                                              > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder, shoulder,
                                              > > sternum (again).
                                              > >
                                              > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                              > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                              > >
                                              > > Peace
                                              > > Dwight Penas
                                              > > Minneapolis
                                              > > ____________________________
                                              > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                              > >
                                              > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > .
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > "If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood
                                              > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                              > the endless immensity of the sea." Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                              >
                                              > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                            • Dwight J. Penas
                                              David, There is a practice among some Lutherans (I among them) who go to the right first. Please, folks, I m not looking to determine which practice is better.
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                David,

                                                There is a practice among some Lutherans (I among them) who go to the right first. Please, folks, I'm not looking to determine which practice is better. Lutherans have been impoverished by all but losing the sign of the cross, and I'm just happy people keep doing it, for heaven's sake. I simply seek information: My understanding has been (and most of the few manuals I've consulted reinforce) that in early times, the sign of the cross did not involve returning to the chest. I'm simply wondering whether there's research in how the practice developed over time.



                                                Peace
                                                Dwight Penas
                                                Minneapolis
                                                ____________________________
                                                "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.





                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: dlewisaao <dlewisaao@...>
                                                To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 4:22 pm
                                                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross





                                                All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left
                                                and the Western Church does it the other way around!

                                                David


                                                In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                lhwhitaker@... writes:

                                                I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                                question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                                expected to "behave."

                                                My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                                developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                                cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                                reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the rosary.

                                                But that's just my opinion.

                                                Lew

                                                On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim
                                                <johndornheim@...>wrote:

                                                > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our
                                                way
                                                > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                                > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                                >
                                                > John Dornheim
                                                >
                                                > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > **
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this
                                                > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --
                                                and
                                                > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I
                                                was
                                                > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of
                                                the
                                                > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,
                                                shoulder,
                                                > > sternum (again).
                                                > >
                                                > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                                > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                                > >
                                                > > Peace
                                                > > Dwight Penas
                                                > > Minneapolis
                                                > > ____________________________
                                                > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                                > >
                                                > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > .
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                > “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                                                wood
                                                > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                                > the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                                >
                                                > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                                                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                ------------------------------------

                                                Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                                To write to the moderators, please email:
                                                liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Scott Knitter
                                                Most Episcopalians seem to return to the center. Many don t in our Anglo-Catholic parish, and I don t anymore, returning to the way I was brought up as a Roman
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Most Episcopalians seem to return to the center. Many don't in our
                                                  Anglo-Catholic parish, and I don't anymore, returning to the way I was
                                                  brought up as a Roman Catholic. Just up, down, left, right, and you're
                                                  done. Usually return to folded hands.

                                                  On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:

                                                  > There is a practice among some Lutherans (I among them) who go to the right first. Please, folks, I'm not looking to determine which practice is better. Lutherans have been impoverished by all but losing the sign of the cross, and I'm just happy people keep doing it, for heaven's sake. I simply seek information: My understanding has been (and most of the few manuals I've consulted reinforce) that in early times, the sign of the cross did not involve returning to the chest. I'm simply wondering whether there's research in how the practice developed over time.
                                                • dlewisaao@aol.com
                                                  Check out _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross) which goes into some detail, including that the
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Check out

                                                    _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross_
                                                    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross)

                                                    which goes into some detail, including that the Eastern way of doing it
                                                    predates the Western but going into much related background.

                                                    David


                                                    In a message dated 11/7/2011 10:03:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                    DJP4LAW@... writes:


                                                    David,

                                                    There is a practice among some Lutherans (I among them) who go to the
                                                    right first. Please, folks, I'm not looking to determine which practice is
                                                    better. Lutherans have been impoverished by all but losing the sign of the
                                                    cross, and I'm just happy people keep doing it, for heaven's sake. I simply
                                                    seek information: My understanding has been (and most of the few manuals I've
                                                    consulted reinforce) that in early times, the sign of the cross did not
                                                    involve returning to the chest. I'm simply wondering whether there's research
                                                    in how the practice developed over time.



                                                    Peace
                                                    Dwight Penas
                                                    Minneapolis
                                                    ____________________________
                                                    "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.





                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: dlewisaao <dlewisaao@...>
                                                    To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 4:22 pm
                                                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross





                                                    All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left
                                                    and the Western Church does it the other way around!

                                                    David


                                                    In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                    lhwhitaker@... writes:

                                                    I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                                    question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                                    expected to "behave."

                                                    My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                                    developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                                    cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                                    reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the
                                                    rosary.

                                                    But that's just my opinion.

                                                    Lew

                                                    On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim
                                                    <johndornheim@...>wrote:

                                                    > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our
                                                    way
                                                    > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                                    > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                                    >
                                                    > John Dornheim
                                                    >
                                                    > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > **
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to
                                                    this
                                                    > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --
                                                    and
                                                    > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I

                                                    was
                                                    > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of
                                                    the
                                                    > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,
                                                    shoulder,
                                                    > > sternum (again).
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                                    > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Peace
                                                    > > Dwight Penas
                                                    > > Minneapolis
                                                    > > ____________________________
                                                    > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > .
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --
                                                    > “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                                                    wood
                                                    > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn
                                                    for
                                                    > the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                                    >
                                                    > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------------------
                                                    >
                                                    > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,
                                                    please email:
                                                    > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                    ------------------------------------

                                                    Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                                    To write to the moderators, please email:
                                                    liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                    ------------------------------------

                                                    Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                                    To write to the moderators, please email:
                                                    liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links





                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Bob White
                                                    ... No one ever taught me so to do, it just seems to me to be sort of the natural movement. I m sure once others observed that, some sort of symbolism was
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Monday, November 7, 2011, 10:03:15 AM, Dwight J. Penas wrote:

                                                      > the sign of the cross did not involve returning to the chest. I'm
                                                      > simply wondering whether there's research in how the practice developed over time.

                                                      No one ever taught me so to do, it just seems to me to be sort of the
                                                      natural movement. I'm sure once others observed that, some sort of
                                                      symbolism was promptly whomped up to justify it.

                                                      --
                                                      Bob mailto:rwhite84@...

                                                      Let us know that we are counted just before God, not
                                                      because he sees no iniquities in us, but because he freely
                                                      forgives them. --John Calvin
                                                    • Frank Senn
                                                      And then there s the suggestion that pastors or other worship leaders make the sign of the cross in reverse, if they are facing the people, because people in
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        And then there's the suggestion that pastors or other worship leaders make the sign of the cross in reverse, if they are facing the people, because people in the pews imitate the leader, but without changing direction.  I've noticed yoga teachers have caught on to this phenomenon.  They may say "put your right foot forward," but because they're facing the class they put their left foot forward.  So I make the sign of the cross from right shoulder to left in order to have the people imitate me from left shoulder to right.  Trust me, I've been doing this for years and it works!

                                                        Frank C. Senn

                                                        --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Bob White <rwhite84@...> wrote:

                                                        From: Bob White <rwhite84@...>
                                                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross
                                                        To: "Dwight J. Penas" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Date: Monday, November 7, 2011, 9:19 AM








                                                         









                                                        Monday, November 7, 2011, 10:03:15 AM, Dwight J. Penas wrote:



                                                        > the sign of the cross did not involve returning to the chest. I'm

                                                        > simply wondering whether there's research in how the practice developed over time.



                                                        No one ever taught me so to do, it just seems to me to be sort of the

                                                        natural movement. I'm sure once others observed that, some sort of

                                                        symbolism was promptly whomped up to justify it.



                                                        --

                                                        Bob mailto:rwhite84@...



                                                        Let us know that we are counted just before God, not

                                                        because he sees no iniquities in us, but because he freely

                                                        forgives them. --John Calvin






















                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Michael Thannisch
                                                        I ll note in passing that in some places in Latin America, but most especially Mexico, a small sign of the cross is made with the fingers at each point of the
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          I'll note in passing that in some places in Latin America, but most especially Mexico, a small sign of the cross is made with the fingers at each point of the cross.

                                                          Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                                                          http://patriotstatesman.com/
                                                          http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
                                                          http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
                                                          http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan Ave.
                                                          La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)
                                                          281-867-0335 (office)
                                                          832-266-8153 (mobile)
                                                          281-867-0576 (fax)


                                                          --- On Mon, 11/7/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                                                          From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
                                                          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross
                                                          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Date: Monday, November 7, 2011, 9:15 AM
















                                                           









                                                          Check out



                                                          _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross_

                                                          (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross)



                                                          which goes into some detail, including that the Eastern way of doing it

                                                          predates the Western but going into much related background.



                                                          David





                                                          In a message dated 11/7/2011 10:03:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

                                                          DJP4LAW@... writes:



                                                          David,



                                                          There is a practice among some Lutherans (I among them) who go to the

                                                          right first. Please, folks, I'm not looking to determine which practice is

                                                          better. Lutherans have been impoverished by all but losing the sign of the

                                                          cross, and I'm just happy people keep doing it, for heaven's sake. I simply

                                                          seek information: My understanding has been (and most of the few manuals I've

                                                          consulted reinforce) that in early times, the sign of the cross did not

                                                          involve returning to the chest. I'm simply wondering whether there's research

                                                          in how the practice developed over time.



                                                          Peace

                                                          Dwight Penas

                                                          Minneapolis

                                                          ____________________________

                                                          "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.



                                                          -----Original Message-----

                                                          From: dlewisaao <dlewisaao@...>

                                                          To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>

                                                          Sent: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 4:22 pm

                                                          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross



                                                          All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left

                                                          and the Western Church does it the other way around!



                                                          David



                                                          In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

                                                          lhwhitaker@... writes:



                                                          I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest

                                                          question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be

                                                          expected to "behave."



                                                          My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that

                                                          developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the

                                                          cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a

                                                          reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the

                                                          rosary.



                                                          But that's just my opinion.



                                                          Lew



                                                          On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim

                                                          <johndornheim@...>wrote:



                                                          > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our

                                                          way

                                                          > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure

                                                          > that there is a single/"correct" way.

                                                          >

                                                          > John Dornheim

                                                          >

                                                          > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>

                                                          wrote:

                                                          >

                                                          > > **

                                                          > >

                                                          > >

                                                          > >

                                                          > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to

                                                          this

                                                          > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --

                                                          and

                                                          > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I



                                                          was

                                                          > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of

                                                          the

                                                          > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,

                                                          shoulder,

                                                          > > sternum (again).

                                                          > >

                                                          > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about

                                                          > > this, but that was just so much **.

                                                          > >

                                                          > > Peace

                                                          > > Dwight Penas

                                                          > > Minneapolis

                                                          > > ____________________________

                                                          > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.

                                                          > >

                                                          > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

                                                          > >

                                                          > >

                                                          > >

                                                          > >

                                                          > >

                                                          > > .

                                                          > >

                                                          > >

                                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                          > >

                                                          > >

                                                          > >

                                                          >

                                                          >

                                                          >

                                                          > --

                                                          > “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect

                                                          wood

                                                          > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn

                                                          for

                                                          > the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay

                                                          >

                                                          > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/

                                                          >

                                                          >

                                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                          >

                                                          >

                                                          >

                                                          > ------------------------------------

                                                          >

                                                          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at

                                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,

                                                          please email:

                                                          > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

                                                          >

                                                          >

                                                          >

                                                          >



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