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Singing during Catholic Masses

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  • dlewisaao@aol.com
    I ve run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two practices: (1)
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
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      I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and
      wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two
      practices:


      (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very
      non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as well as
      very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are standing or
      kneeling


      (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the people
      are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing and
      moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing varying
      parts of the hymn at best


      Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really prevent
      it from happening; what am I missing?

      David


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Scott Knitter
      Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle them, at least!),
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
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        Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the
        giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle
        them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of
        refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the
        people are really asked to sing is the refrain.

        RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,
        stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.
        Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as
        the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the
        hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the
        collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a
        hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC
        rite.

        On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
        > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and
        > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two
        > practices:
        >
        >
        > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very
        > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as well as
        > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are standing or
        > kneeling
        >
        >
        > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the  people
        > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing  and
        > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing varying
        > parts of the hymn at best
        >
        >
        > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really prevent
        >  it from happening; what am I missing?
      • dlewisaao@aol.com
        The hymns I ve heard during Communion are regular rather than refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming forward to receive
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than
          refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming forward to
          receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing something
          and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most people
          are back in their pews.

          In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of a
          difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir
          anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which case a
          hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,
          ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to better enable
          people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the
          people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.

          David


          In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          scott.knitter@... writes:

          Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the
          giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle
          them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of
          refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the
          people are really asked to sing is the refrain.

          RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,
          stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.
          Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as
          the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the
          hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the
          collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a
          hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC
          rite.

          On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
          > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and
          > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two
          > practices:
          >
          >
          > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very
          > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as
          well as
          > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are
          standing or
          > kneeling
          >
          >
          > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the people
          > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing
          and
          > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing
          varying
          > parts of the hymn at best
          >
          >
          > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really
          prevent
          > it from happening; what am I missing?


          ------------------------------------

          Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
          To write to the moderators, please email:
          liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Frank Senn
          Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice since Vatican II.  Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance (Introit),
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
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            Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice since Vatican II.  Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio).  Having an anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem" is a corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to sing.  I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note.  In African the choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.

            Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.  Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and the choir is in place in the balcony.  At a service at which I expect only a handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion hymn, just have the organist play.

            Frank C. Senn

            --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

            From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM
















             









            The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than

            refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming forward to

            receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing something

            and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most people

            are back in their pews.



            In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of a

            difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir

            anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which case a

            hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,

            ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to better enable

            people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the

            people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.



            David





            In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

            scott.knitter@... writes:



            Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the

            giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle

            them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of

            refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the

            people are really asked to sing is the refrain.



            RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,

            stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.

            Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as

            the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the

            hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the

            collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a

            hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC

            rite.



            On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

            > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and

            > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two

            > practices:

            >

            >

            > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very

            > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as

            well as

            > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are

            standing or

            > kneeling

            >

            >

            > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the people

            > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing

            and

            > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing

            varying

            > parts of the hymn at best

            >

            >

            > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really

            prevent

            > it from happening; what am I missing?



            ------------------------------------



            Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/

            To write to the moderators, please email:

            liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • dlewisaao@aol.com
            I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung? In my former
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
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              I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of
              Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung?

              In my former Anglo-Catholic parish, the choir would indeed sing the
              Communio antiphon and would then sing an anthem/motet as people were coming
              forward to receive Communion. The practical purpose of the post-Communion hymn
              was to cover ablutions.

              (I might add that both an Introit and Opening Hymn were used, the first to
              cover the entrance of the sanctuary party and the latter to cover the
              initial censing. By the book, one of the two would be redundant, but
              practicality sets in.)

              I'm still puzzled about singing when the people are not all doing the same
              thing in the same place or circumstances when a part of their worship would
              be interrupted.

              David


              In a message dated 11/3/2011 11:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              fcsenn@... writes:

              Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice
              since Vatican II. Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance
              (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio). Having an
              anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem" is a
              corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to
              sing. I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note. In African the
              choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.

              Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor
              or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.
              Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come
              forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and the
              choir is in place in the balcony. At a service at which I expect only a
              handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion hymn,
              just have the organist play.

              Frank C. Senn

              --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

              From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
              To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM


























              The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than

              refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming
              forward to

              receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing
              something

              and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most
              people

              are back in their pews.



              In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of
              a

              difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir

              anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which case
              a

              hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,

              ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to
              better enable

              people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the

              people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.



              David





              In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

              scott.knitter@... writes:



              Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the

              giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle

              them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of

              refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the

              people are really asked to sing is the refrain.



              RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,

              stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.

              Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as

              the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the

              hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the

              collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a

              hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC

              rite.



              On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

              > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and

              > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two

              > practices:

              >

              >

              > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very

              > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as

              well as

              > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are

              standing or

              > kneeling

              >

              >

              > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the people

              > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing


              and

              > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing

              varying

              > parts of the hymn at best

              >

              >

              > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really

              prevent

              > it from happening; what am I missing?



              ------------------------------------



              Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/

              To write to the moderators, please email:

              liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
              To write to the moderators, please email:
              liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lewis Whitaker
              David: Again, you d better put Rome on the speed-dial. It sounds like you ll need it. Lew ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                David:

                Again, you'd better put Rome on the speed-dial. It sounds like you'll need
                it.

                Lew


                On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 11:42 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                > I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of
                > Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung?
                >
                > In my former Anglo-Catholic parish, the choir would indeed sing the
                > Communio antiphon and would then sing an anthem/motet as people were coming
                > forward to receive Communion. The practical purpose of the post-Communion
                > hymn
                > was to cover ablutions.
                >
                > (I might add that both an Introit and Opening Hymn were used, the first to
                > cover the entrance of the sanctuary party and the latter to cover the
                > initial censing. By the book, one of the two would be redundant, but
                > practicality sets in.)
                >
                > I'm still puzzled about singing when the people are not all doing the same
                > thing in the same place or circumstances when a part of their worship would
                > be interrupted.
                >
                > David
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 11/3/2011 11:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                > fcsenn@... writes:
                >
                > Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice
                > since Vatican II. Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance
                > (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio).
                > Having an
                > anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem"
                > is a
                > corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to
                > sing. I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note. In African the
                > choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.
                >
                > Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor
                > or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.
                > Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come
                > forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and
                > the
                > choir is in place in the balcony. At a service at which I expect only a
                > handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion
                > hymn,
                > just have the organist play.
                >
                > Frank C. Senn
                >
                > --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
                > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
                > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than
                >
                > refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming
                > forward to
                >
                > receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing
                > something
                >
                > and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most
                > people
                >
                > are back in their pews.
                >
                >
                >
                > In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of
                > a
                >
                > difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir
                >
                > anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which case
                > a
                >
                > hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,
                >
                > ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to
                > better enable
                >
                > people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the
                >
                > people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.
                >
                >
                >
                > David
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                >
                > scott.knitter@... writes:
                >
                >
                >
                > Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the
                >
                > giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle
                >
                > them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of
                >
                > refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the
                >
                > people are really asked to sing is the refrain.
                >
                >
                >
                > RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,
                >
                > stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.
                >
                > Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as
                >
                > the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the
                >
                > hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the
                >
                > collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a
                >
                > hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC
                >
                > rite.
                >
                >
                >
                > On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
                >
                > > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and
                >
                > > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these
                > two
                >
                > > practices:
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very
                >
                > > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as
                >
                > well as
                >
                > > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are
                >
                > standing or
                >
                > > kneeling
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the
                > people
                >
                > > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing
                >
                >
                > and
                >
                > > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing
                >
                > varying
                >
                > > parts of the hymn at best
                >
                > >
                >
                > >
                >
                > > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really
                >
                > prevent
                >
                > > it from happening; what am I missing?
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                >
                > To write to the moderators, please email:
                >
                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                > To write to the moderators, please email:
                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Frank Senn
                In the Catholic tradition, the people sang hymns during Mass, not as an integral part of Mass.  This was a popular custom in Germany. (Actually there were
                Message 7 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  In the Catholic tradition, the people sang hymns during Mass, not as an integral part of Mass.  This was a popular custom in Germany. (Actually there were hymns sung as an integral part of the Mass, but they were called canticles, like Gloria in excelsis, Agnus Dei.)  In the West strophic hymns were not an integral part of the Mass, but they were/are an integral part of the prayer offices.  The Divine Office was the home of Latin hymnody from Ambrose on.

                  Hymns have often been used to cover movement, so the practice of singing while people are going somewhere (or at least some of the people are moving about) is not new.  Some hymns were actually written for processions (e.g. "All glory, laud, and honor" on Palm Sunday).

                  In the West it was the Lutherans who first made singing strophic hymns an integral part of the mass.  Chorales were substituted for parts of the Mass, such as the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei.  The gradual was often replaced by a Hauptlied (the proper hymn).

                  In the East, hymns are an integral part of the Divine Liturgy, e.g. Trisagion, O Monogenes, Cherubikon.

                  Frank C. Senn

                  --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                  From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
                  To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:42 AM








                   









                  I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of

                  Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung?



                  In my former Anglo-Catholic parish, the choir would indeed sing the

                  Communio antiphon and would then sing an anthem/motet as people were coming

                  forward to receive Communion. The practical purpose of the post-Communion hymn

                  was to cover ablutions.



                  (I might add that both an Introit and Opening Hymn were used, the first to

                  cover the entrance of the sanctuary party and the latter to cover the

                  initial censing. By the book, one of the two would be redundant, but

                  practicality sets in.)



                  I'm still puzzled about singing when the people are not all doing the same

                  thing in the same place or circumstances when a part of their worship would

                  be interrupted.



                  David





                  In a message dated 11/3/2011 11:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

                  fcsenn@... writes:



                  Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice

                  since Vatican II. Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance

                  (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio). Having an

                  anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem" is a

                  corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to

                  sing. I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note. In African the

                  choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.



                  Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor

                  or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.

                  Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come

                  forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and the

                  choir is in place in the balcony. At a service at which I expect only a

                  handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion hymn,

                  just have the organist play.



                  Frank C. Senn



                  --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                  From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>

                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses

                  To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

                  Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM



                  The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than



                  refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming

                  forward to



                  receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing

                  something



                  and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most

                  people



                  are back in their pews.



                  In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of

                  a



                  difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir



                  anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which case

                  a



                  hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,



                  ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to

                  better enable



                  people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the



                  people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.



                  David



                  In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,



                  scott.knitter@... writes:



                  Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the



                  giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle



                  them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of



                  refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the



                  people are really asked to sing is the refrain.



                  RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,



                  stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.



                  Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as



                  the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the



                  hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the



                  collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a



                  hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC



                  rite.



                  On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                  > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and



                  > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these two



                  > practices:



                  >



                  >



                  > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very



                  > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as



                  well as



                  > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are



                  standing or



                  > kneeling



                  >



                  >



                  > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the people



                  > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and standing





                  and



                  > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing



                  varying



                  > parts of the hymn at best



                  >



                  >



                  > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really



                  prevent



                  > it from happening; what am I missing?



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                • dlewisaao@aol.com
                  Yes, I ve also heard that the Germans have been exemplary over the centuries to include hymnody in Eucharistic liturgy in particular. I definitely agree with
                  Message 8 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Yes, I've also heard that the Germans have been exemplary over the
                    centuries to include hymnody in Eucharistic liturgy in particular.

                    I definitely agree with the use of hymns to cover movement when everyone is
                    doing the same thing, such as when people are in a procession together and
                    thus the hymn is a part of their corporate worship, everyone in theory
                    being able to sing at the same time. The difference with the "Communion
                    procession" is that different people are doing different things during the
                    period of the hymn, making it difficult to be a corporate offering.

                    David


                    In a message dated 11/3/2011 1:29:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                    fcsenn@... writes:

                    In the Catholic tradition, the people sang hymns during Mass, not as an
                    integral part of Mass. This was a popular custom in Germany. (Actually there
                    were hymns sung as an integral part of the Mass, but they were called
                    canticles, like Gloria in excelsis, Agnus Dei.) In the West strophic hymns
                    were not an integral part of the Mass, but they were/are an integral part of
                    the prayer offices. The Divine Office was the home of Latin hymnody from
                    Ambrose on.

                    Hymns have often been used to cover movement, so the practice of singing
                    while people are going somewhere (or at least some of the people are moving
                    about) is not new. Some hymns were actually written for processions (e.g.
                    "All glory, laud, and honor" on Palm Sunday).

                    In the West it was the Lutherans who first made singing strophic hymns an
                    integral part of the mass. Chorales were substituted for parts of the
                    Mass, such as the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. The gradual
                    was often replaced by a Hauptlied (the proper hymn).

                    In the East, hymns are an integral part of the Divine Liturgy, e.g.
                    Trisagion, O Monogenes, Cherubikon.

                    Frank C. Senn

                    --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                    From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
                    To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:42 AM


















                    I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of

                    Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung?



                    In my former Anglo-Catholic parish, the choir would indeed sing the

                    Communio antiphon and would then sing an anthem/motet as people were
                    coming

                    forward to receive Communion. The practical purpose of the post-Communion
                    hymn

                    was to cover ablutions.



                    (I might add that both an Introit and Opening Hymn were used, the first to


                    cover the entrance of the sanctuary party and the latter to cover the

                    initial censing. By the book, one of the two would be redundant, but

                    practicality sets in.)



                    I'm still puzzled about singing when the people are not all doing the same


                    thing in the same place or circumstances when a part of their worship
                    would

                    be interrupted.



                    David





                    In a message dated 11/3/2011 11:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

                    fcsenn@... writes:



                    Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice

                    since Vatican II. Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance

                    (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio).
                    Having an

                    anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem"
                    is a

                    corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to

                    sing. I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note. In African
                    the

                    choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.



                    Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor

                    or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.

                    Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come

                    forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and
                    the

                    choir is in place in the balcony. At a service at which I expect only a

                    handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion
                    hymn,

                    just have the organist play.



                    Frank C. Senn



                    --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                    From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>

                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses

                    To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

                    Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM



                    The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than



                    refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming

                    forward to



                    receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing

                    something



                    and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most

                    people



                    are back in their pews.



                    In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of

                    a



                    difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir



                    anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which
                    case

                    a



                    hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,



                    ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to

                    better enable



                    people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the



                    people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.



                    David



                    In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,



                    scott.knitter@... writes:



                    Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the



                    giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle



                    them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of



                    refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the



                    people are really asked to sing is the refrain.



                    RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,



                    stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.



                    Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as



                    the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the



                    hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the



                    collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a



                    hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC



                    rite.



                    On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                    > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and



                    > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these
                    two



                    > practices:



                    >



                    >



                    > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very



                    > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as



                    well as



                    > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are



                    standing or



                    > kneeling



                    >



                    >



                    > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the
                    people



                    > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and
                    standing





                    and



                    > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing



                    varying



                    > parts of the hymn at best



                    >



                    >



                    > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really



                    prevent



                    > it from happening; what am I missing?



                    ------------------------------------



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                  • Scott Knitter
                    I think very highly of the hymnal Gotteslob (Praise of God), which is rather universally used in German-language RC Masses. (Not to mention Christuslob, its
                    Message 9 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I think very highly of the hymnal Gotteslob (Praise of God), which is
                      rather universally used in German-language RC Masses. (Not to mention
                      Christuslob, its counterpart for the day hours of the Liturgy of the
                      Hours.) Benedictines in German-speaking areas also have excellent
                      office books. I often wish there were volumes of similar quality over
                      here.

                      I sometimes watch the Masses broadcast on zdf.de (Germany's second TV
                      network), on the program Gottesdienst. They alternate between RC and
                      Lutheran (Evangelisch). The RC ones always use Gotteslob (and give the
                      numbers for singing along at home) and the Lutheran ones almost always
                      use EG (Evangelisches Gesangbuch). I like the consistency. (Although
                      as far as the broadcast services go, the Lutheran ones are too
                      theme-oriented and seemingly allergic to the standard liturgy.)

                      On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 1:07 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
                      > Yes, I've also heard that the Germans have been exemplary over the
                      > centuries to include hymnody in Eucharistic liturgy in particular.
                    • Michael Thannisch
                      That s why I like to keep communion hymns to those the congregation knows well, that way they can participate, no matter what else they may be doing. Shalom
                      Message 10 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        That's why I like to keep communion hymns to those the congregation knows well, that way they can participate, no matter what else they may be doing.

                        Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                        http://patriotstatesman.com/
                        http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
                        http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
                        http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan Ave.
                        La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)
                        281-867-0335 (office)
                        832-266-8153 (mobile)
                        281-867-0576 (fax)


                        --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                        From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
                        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 1:07 PM
















                         









                        Yes, I've also heard that the Germans have been exemplary over the

                        centuries to include hymnody in Eucharistic liturgy in particular.



                        I definitely agree with the use of hymns to cover movement when everyone is

                        doing the same thing, such as when people are in a procession together and

                        thus the hymn is a part of their corporate worship, everyone in theory

                        being able to sing at the same time. The difference with the "Communion

                        procession" is that different people are doing different things during the

                        period of the hymn, making it difficult to be a corporate offering.



                        David





                        In a message dated 11/3/2011 1:29:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

                        fcsenn@... writes:



                        In the Catholic tradition, the people sang hymns during Mass, not as an

                        integral part of Mass. This was a popular custom in Germany. (Actually there

                        were hymns sung as an integral part of the Mass, but they were called

                        canticles, like Gloria in excelsis, Agnus Dei.) In the West strophic hymns

                        were not an integral part of the Mass, but they were/are an integral part of

                        the prayer offices. The Divine Office was the home of Latin hymnody from

                        Ambrose on.



                        Hymns have often been used to cover movement, so the practice of singing

                        while people are going somewhere (or at least some of the people are moving

                        about) is not new. Some hymns were actually written for processions (e.g.

                        "All glory, laud, and honor" on Palm Sunday).



                        In the West it was the Lutherans who first made singing strophic hymns an

                        integral part of the mass. Chorales were substituted for parts of the

                        Mass, such as the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. The gradual

                        was often replaced by a Hauptlied (the proper hymn).



                        In the East, hymns are an integral part of the Divine Liturgy, e.g.

                        Trisagion, O Monogenes, Cherubikon.



                        Frank C. Senn



                        --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                        From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>

                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses

                        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

                        Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:42 AM



                        I guess, then, another question is - having seen venerable collections of



                        Catholic hymns that predate Vatican II, when would they have been sung?



                        In my former Anglo-Catholic parish, the choir would indeed sing the



                        Communio antiphon and would then sing an anthem/motet as people were

                        coming



                        forward to receive Communion. The practical purpose of the post-Communion

                        hymn



                        was to cover ablutions.



                        (I might add that both an Introit and Opening Hymn were used, the first to





                        cover the entrance of the sanctuary party and the latter to cover the



                        initial censing. By the book, one of the two would be redundant, but



                        practicality sets in.)



                        I'm still puzzled about singing when the people are not all doing the same





                        thing in the same place or circumstances when a part of their worship

                        would



                        be interrupted.



                        David



                        In a message dated 11/3/2011 11:30:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,



                        fcsenn@... writes:



                        Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice



                        since Vatican II. Previously, the choir sang psalms at the entrance



                        (Introit), offertory (Offertorium), and during communion (Communio).

                        Having an



                        anthem and a hymn during the offertory is a duplication because "anthem"

                        is a



                        corruption of "antiphon," which refers to the psalmody the choir used to



                        sing. I'm not complaining, just giving a historical note. In African

                        the



                        choir singing, often with the congregation joining in, can go on and on.



                        Congregational singing during communion is tricky business and the pastor



                        or cantor really has to anticipate and be sensitive to the situation.



                        Usually on Sunday we sing the communion hymn as the people begin to come



                        forward (they don't all come at once - they're guided by the ushers) and

                        the



                        choir is in place in the balcony. At a service at which I expect only a



                        handful of people (like Christmas Day), I wouldn't schedule a communion

                        hymn,



                        just have the organist play.



                        Frank C. Senn



                        --- On Thu, 11/3/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                        From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>



                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses



                        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com



                        Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 10:04 AM



                        The hymns I've heard during Communion are "regular" rather than



                        refrain-and-verse. To me, it seems that when the people are coming



                        forward to



                        receive Communion would be an ideal time for the choir to be singing



                        something



                        and for the hymn to be toward the end of the "procession" when most



                        people



                        are back in their pews.



                        In terms of what happens during the Offertory, I really don't see much of



                        a



                        difference between Episcopal and RC liturgies. If anything, a choir



                        anthem would suffice in either case unless incense is used, in which

                        case



                        a



                        hymn (standing) would make sense during the incensation of the gifts,



                        ministers and people. Or if there has to be a hymn and no anthem, to



                        better enable



                        people to sing the hymn (as in standing is preferred) simply have the



                        people stand - which I've seen happen at some Catholic Masses.



                        David



                        In a message dated 11/3/2011 10:30:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,



                        scott.knitter@... writes:



                        Many RC parishes use one of the paperback annual hymns (imagine the



                        giant dumping of out-of-date hymnals every year; I hope they recycle



                        them, at least!), which seem to contain a whole lot of



                        refrain-and-verse items. These are useful for Communion, as all the



                        people are really asked to sing is the refrain.



                        RC liturgy doesn't necessarily have the "sit to listen, kneel to pray,



                        stand to sing" pattern, and the Offertory is a sort of busy time.



                        Episcopal churches tend to sit for the collection and then stand (as



                        the BCP prescribes) for the presentation of the gifts and to sing the



                        hymn. There's a more delineated pattern: now we're sitting to do the



                        collection and listen to an anthem, and now we're standing to sing a



                        hymn while the gifts are presented. Not so clearly defined in the RC



                        rite.



                        On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:22 AM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:



                        > I've run into the following more than once during Catholic Masses and



                        > wonder if anyone could give some insight into the rationale of these

                        two



                        > practices:



                        >



                        >



                        > (1) Sitting while singing an Offertory hymn - comes across as very



                        > non-liturgical Protestant (where hymns are sometimes sung sitting), as



                        well as



                        > very counter to the best physical positions for singing which are



                        standing or



                        > kneeling



                        >



                        >



                        > (2) Hymn for the "Communion procession" - this is sung while the

                        people



                        > are in various stages of getting ready to get up, being up and

                        standing



                        and



                        > moving, or returning from Communion, so basically being able to sing



                        varying



                        > parts of the hymn at best



                        >



                        >



                        > Both seem to be ways to say that singing is taking place but really



                        prevent



                        > it from happening; what am I missing?



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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Douglas Cowling
                        On 11/3/11 11:30 AM, Frank Senn wrote: Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice since Vatican II.
                        Message 11 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On 11/3/11 11:30 AM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...> wrote:

                          Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice
                          since Vatican II.


                          That's really not true in Germany and Austria, is it? German Catholics were
                          singing vernacular hymns in place of the Proper and Ordinary for a century
                          before Luther normalized the practice and "invented" chorale-singing (the
                          clergy obeyed the rubrics by reciting the Latin texts sotto voce as they did
                          at Catholic high mass)

                          There were vernacular German hymn books throughout the 16th and 17th
                          centuries for singing during mass. Michael Haydn and Franz Schubert's
                          German masses were part of this Singmesse tradition that continued right up
                          to the time of the Second Council and provided a 500 year model for the
                          post-conciliar masses.

                          The Irish-American bishops hated this tradition. Cardinal Cushing called the
                          Austrian masses "noisy". I suspect hymn-singing is ethnically determined.
                          German and Polish parishes sing heartily. Irish-Americans have no music
                          tradition popular or conservative. Edward Kennedy's funeral was the worst
                          funeral mass I have ever heard.

                          Doug Cowling
                          Director of Music
                          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                          Toronto
                        • William Renwick
                          Doug s comments about German Catholics singing hymns while the priest said the proper texts sotto voce is very interesting. It seems to me that in a
                          Message 12 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Doug's comments about German Catholics singing hymns while the priest said the proper texts sotto voce is very interesting.

                            It seems to me that in a "traditional" mass i.e. tridentine, the texts proper to the mass are those said by the priest; the fact that a choir might be singing the same texts at the same time (by which I mean the plainsong propers and ordinary) is nice, but is almost a coincidence.

                            And so I can easily understand the european tradition of a sung mass (think Haydn or Mozart) where all this beautiful music is going on at one end of the church, while the mass is going on at the other end of the church, and they are pretty much in their own worlds; the benedictus can be extended because at that time the priest is just continuing with the canon.

                            Where we sing chant the priest says the proper texts while we sing them--of course he goes much quicker, but then waits till we are finished before continuing with the next part; but overall it is the same thing.

                            I think with a bit of practice one could get the timing just about right so that there would be continuous singing at one end of the church and continuous sotto voce speech at the other end!

                            William Renwick
                            renwick@...
                            School of the Arts
                            McMaster University
                            Hamilton Ontario CANADA L8S 4M2 http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~renwick/wr.htm
                          • Douglas Cowling
                            On 11/3/11 10:46 PM, William Renwick wrote: I think with a bit of practice one could get the timing just about right so
                            Message 13 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On 11/3/11 10:46 PM, "William Renwick" <renwick@...>
                              wrote:

                              I think with a bit of practice one could get the timing just about right so
                              that there would be continuous singing at one end of the church and
                              continuous sotto voce speech at the other end!


                              Et voila Louis XIV! The Sun King grew distracted by the longeurs of high
                              mass. At Versailles, the daily mass in the Chapel Royal was not a high mass.
                              Rather the priest whispered a messe basse at the altar while the choir sang
                              an extended grand motet for the delictation/entertainment of the court.

                              Here's one of my favourite Bourbon grand motets ... Catch the period
                              French pronunciation of Latin.

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b02WtXB_Xxk

                              Church was a lot more fun.

                              Doug Cowling
                              Director of Music
                              St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                              Toronto
                            • Frank Senn
                              I was making a distinction between singing DURING mass and singing AS A PART of mass.  Yes, the Germanic Catholics had a wonderful tradition of singing while
                              Message 14 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
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                                I was making a distinction between singing DURING mass and singing AS A PART of mass.  Yes, the Germanic Catholics had a wonderful tradition of singing while mass was being celebrated.  It falls into the category of popular devotion, like saying the Rosary.  What Luther did in his German Mass was turn the ordinary and propers over to the congregation in the form of chorales (based on medieval chants and sequences).  In his Latin mass, however, the choir continued singing the ordinary and propers in plainchant or polyphonic settings.  Hymn singing framed the pulpit office. Melanchthon testified in his Apology to the Augsburg Confession, article 24 on the Mass, that Lutherans were "falsely accused of abolishing the mass."  But he noted that hymns in German were added to the parts sung in Latin in order to teach the people.

                                Frank C. Senn

                                --- On Thu, 11/3/11, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                                From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Singing during Catholic Masses
                                To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 9:19 PM








                                 









                                On 11/3/11 11:30 AM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...> wrote:



                                Remember that hymn singing as a part of the Roman Mass is a new practice

                                since Vatican II.



                                That's really not true in Germany and Austria, is it? German Catholics were

                                singing vernacular hymns in place of the Proper and Ordinary for a century

                                before Luther normalized the practice and "invented" chorale-singing (the

                                clergy obeyed the rubrics by reciting the Latin texts sotto voce as they did

                                at Catholic high mass)



                                There were vernacular German hymn books throughout the 16th and 17th

                                centuries for singing during mass. Michael Haydn and Franz Schubert's

                                German masses were part of this Singmesse tradition that continued right up

                                to the time of the Second Council and provided a 500 year model for the

                                post-conciliar masses.



                                The Irish-American bishops hated this tradition. Cardinal Cushing called the

                                Austrian masses "noisy". I suspect hymn-singing is ethnically determined.

                                German and Polish parishes sing heartily. Irish-Americans have no music

                                tradition popular or conservative. Edward Kennedy's funeral was the worst

                                funeral mass I have ever heard.



                                Doug Cowling

                                Director of Music

                                St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke

                                Toronto






















                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Dwight J. Penas
                                I ve lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this question (I know how to do it; it s just not working for me today -- and I m in a bad
                                Message 15 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
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                                  I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today -- and I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I was reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of the cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder, shoulder, sternum (again).

                                  Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about this, but that was just so much **.



                                  Peace
                                  Dwight Penas
                                  Minneapolis
                                  ____________________________
                                  "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.












                                  Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use





                                  .







                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • John Dornheim
                                  I think that answering your question might just lead to another my/our way is better than your way which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure that there
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our way
                                    is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                    that there is a single/"correct" way.

                                    John Dornheim

                                    On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this
                                    > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today -- and
                                    > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I was
                                    > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of the
                                    > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder, shoulder,
                                    > sternum (again).
                                    >
                                    > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                    > this, but that was just so much **.
                                    >
                                    > Peace
                                    > Dwight Penas
                                    > Minneapolis
                                    > ____________________________
                                    > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                    >
                                    > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > .
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >



                                    --
                                    �If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood
                                    and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                    the endless immensity of the sea.� Antoine de Saint-Exuperay

                                    Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Lewis Whitaker
                                    I don t see anything indicating a this way is best but rather an honest question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be expected to
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                      question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                      expected to "behave."

                                      My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                      developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                      cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                      reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the rosary.

                                      But that's just my opinion.

                                      Lew


                                      On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim <johndornheim@...>wrote:

                                      > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our way
                                      > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                      > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                      >
                                      > John Dornheim
                                      >
                                      > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > **
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this
                                      > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today -- and
                                      > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I was
                                      > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of the
                                      > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder, shoulder,
                                      > > sternum (again).
                                      > >
                                      > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                      > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                      > >
                                      > > Peace
                                      > > Dwight Penas
                                      > > Minneapolis
                                      > > ____________________________
                                      > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                      > >
                                      > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > .
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > �If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood
                                      > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                      > the endless immensity of the sea.� Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                      >
                                      > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                                      > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • dlewisaao@aol.com
                                      All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left and the Western Church does it the other way around! David In a message dated
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
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                                        All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left
                                        and the Western Church does it the other way around!

                                        David


                                        In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                        lhwhitaker@... writes:

                                        I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                        question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                        expected to "behave."

                                        My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                        developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                        cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                        reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the rosary.

                                        But that's just my opinion.

                                        Lew


                                        On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim
                                        <johndornheim@...>wrote:

                                        > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our
                                        way
                                        > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                        > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                        >
                                        > John Dornheim
                                        >
                                        > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > **
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this
                                        > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --
                                        and
                                        > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I
                                        was
                                        > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of
                                        the
                                        > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,
                                        shoulder,
                                        > > sternum (again).
                                        > >
                                        > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                        > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                        > >
                                        > > Peace
                                        > > Dwight Penas
                                        > > Minneapolis
                                        > > ____________________________
                                        > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                        > >
                                        > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > .
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                                        wood
                                        > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                        > the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                        >
                                        > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                                        > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                        ------------------------------------

                                        Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                        To write to the moderators, please email:
                                        liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Lewis Whitaker
                                        Now *THAT* is a clear question of who s right, or at least it is from the Orthodox POV. There used to be a question on the OCA website that asked about the
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Now *THAT* is a clear question of "who's right," or at least it is from the
                                          Orthodox POV.

                                          There used to be a question on the OCA website that asked about the
                                          difference, and why the west does it one way and the east the other. The
                                          respondent (an Orthodox priest) said "Good question. We're not sure why the
                                          West changed it..."

                                          The Orthodox, dontcha know, are never wrong.

                                          Lew

                                          On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:22 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                                          > All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left
                                          > and the Western Church does it the other way around!
                                          >
                                          > David
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                          > lhwhitaker@... writes:
                                          >
                                          > I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                          > question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                          > expected to "behave."
                                          >
                                          > My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                          > developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                          > cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                          > reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the
                                          > rosary.
                                          >
                                          > But that's just my opinion.
                                          >
                                          > Lew
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim
                                          > <johndornheim@...>wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our
                                          > way
                                          > > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                          > > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                          > >
                                          > > John Dornheim
                                          > >
                                          > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > **
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to
                                          > this
                                          > > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --
                                          > and
                                          > > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I
                                          > was
                                          > > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of
                                          > the
                                          > > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,
                                          > shoulder,
                                          > > > sternum (again).
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                          > > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Peace
                                          > > > Dwight Penas
                                          > > > Minneapolis
                                          > > > ____________________________
                                          > > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > .
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --
                                          > > �If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                                          > wood
                                          > > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                          > > the endless immensity of the sea.� Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                          > >
                                          > > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                          > >
                                          > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,
                                          > please email:
                                          > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                          > To write to the moderators, please email:
                                          > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                                          > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Lewis Whitaker
                                          Just to be clear, who is right was MY interpretation, not David s. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Just to be clear, "who is right" was MY interpretation, not David's.



                                            On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

                                            > Now *THAT* is a clear question of "who's right," or at least it is from
                                            > the Orthodox POV.
                                            >
                                            > There used to be a question on the OCA website that asked about the
                                            > difference, and why the west does it one way and the east the other. The
                                            > respondent (an Orthodox priest) said "Good question. We're not sure why the
                                            > West changed it..."
                                            >
                                            > The Orthodox, dontcha know, are never wrong.
                                            >
                                            > Lew
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:22 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >> All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left
                                            >> and the Western Church does it the other way around!
                                            >>
                                            >> David
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                            >> lhwhitaker@... writes:
                                            >>
                                            >> I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                            >> question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                            >> expected to "behave."
                                            >>
                                            >> My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                            >> developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                            >> cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                            >> reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the
                                            >> rosary.
                                            >>
                                            >> But that's just my opinion.
                                            >>
                                            >> Lew
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim
                                            >> <johndornheim@...>wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >> > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our
                                            >> way
                                            >> > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                            >> > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                            >> >
                                            >> > John Dornheim
                                            >> >
                                            >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>
                                            >> wrote:
                                            >> >
                                            >> > > **
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to
                                            >> this
                                            >> > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --
                                            >> and
                                            >> > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I
                                            >> was
                                            >> > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of
                                            >> the
                                            >> > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,
                                            >> shoulder,
                                            >> > > sternum (again).
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                            >> > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > > Peace
                                            >> > > Dwight Penas
                                            >> > > Minneapolis
                                            >> > > ____________________________
                                            >> > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest � Unsubscribe � Terms of Use
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > > .
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > >
                                            >> > >
                                            >> >
                                            >> >
                                            >> >
                                            >> > --
                                            >> > �If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                                            >> wood
                                            >> > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn
                                            >> for
                                            >> > the endless immensity of the sea.� Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                            >> >
                                            >> > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                            >> >
                                            >> >
                                            >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >> >
                                            >> >
                                            >> >
                                            >> > ------------------------------------
                                            >> >
                                            >> > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                            >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,
                                            >> please email:
                                            >> > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                            >> >
                                            >> >
                                            >> >
                                            >> >
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> ------------------------------------
                                            >>
                                            >> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                            >> To write to the moderators, please email:
                                            >> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> ------------------------------------
                                            >>
                                            >> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                                            >> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • bliesem@csl.edu
                                            A 2004 book by Bert Ghezzi, entitled, The sign of the cross has a chapter entitled, A short history of the sign of the cross . There is also the 1907 book
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Nov 4, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              A 2004 book by Bert Ghezzi, entitled, "The sign of the cross" has a chapter entitled, "A short history of the sign of the cross".

                                              There is also the 1907 book by Ernest Beresford Cooke, entitled, "The sign of the cross in the western liturgies".

                                              Mark J. Bliese
                                              Saint Louis, Mo.

                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                              > [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dwight J. Penas
                                              > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 9:08 AM
                                              > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an
                                              > answer to this question (I know how to do it; it's just not
                                              > working for me today -- and I'm in a bad mood to start).
                                              > After watching *The Way* last evening, I was reminded that I
                                              > don't know whence the practice of making the sign of the
                                              > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest,
                                              > shoulder, shoulder, sternum (again).
                                              >
                                              > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a
                                              > friend about this, but that was just so much **.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Peace
                                              > Dwight Penas
                                              > Minneapolis
                                              > ____________________________
                                              > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest * Unsubscribe * Terms of Use
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > .
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the
                                              > moderators, please email:
                                              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • James
                                              Actually, John, in making the sign of the cross there is the Right way, the Left way and Our way.... I have seen so many variants of it used over the years,
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Nov 5, 2011
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Actually, John, in making the sign of the cross there is the Right way, the Left way and Our way....

                                                I have seen so many variants of it used over the years, including punching the sternum three times at the end, that I'm just happy that Christians sign themselves.

                                                Rdr. James

                                                --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, John Dornheim <johndornheim@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our way
                                                > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                                > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                                >
                                                > John Dornheim
                                                >
                                                > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > **
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this
                                                > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today -- and
                                                > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I was
                                                > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of the
                                                > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder, shoulder,
                                                > > sternum (again).
                                                > >
                                                > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                                > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                                > >
                                                > > Peace
                                                > > Dwight Penas
                                                > > Minneapolis
                                                > > ____________________________
                                                > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                                > >
                                                > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > .
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                > "If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood
                                                > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                                > the endless immensity of the sea." Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                                >
                                                > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                              • Dwight J. Penas
                                                David, There is a practice among some Lutherans (I among them) who go to the right first. Please, folks, I m not looking to determine which practice is better.
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  David,

                                                  There is a practice among some Lutherans (I among them) who go to the right first. Please, folks, I'm not looking to determine which practice is better. Lutherans have been impoverished by all but losing the sign of the cross, and I'm just happy people keep doing it, for heaven's sake. I simply seek information: My understanding has been (and most of the few manuals I've consulted reinforce) that in early times, the sign of the cross did not involve returning to the chest. I'm simply wondering whether there's research in how the practice developed over time.



                                                  Peace
                                                  Dwight Penas
                                                  Minneapolis
                                                  ____________________________
                                                  "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.





                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: dlewisaao <dlewisaao@...>
                                                  To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 4:22 pm
                                                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross





                                                  All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left
                                                  and the Western Church does it the other way around!

                                                  David


                                                  In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                  lhwhitaker@... writes:

                                                  I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                                  question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                                  expected to "behave."

                                                  My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                                  developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                                  cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                                  reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the rosary.

                                                  But that's just my opinion.

                                                  Lew

                                                  On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim
                                                  <johndornheim@...>wrote:

                                                  > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our
                                                  way
                                                  > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                                  > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                                  >
                                                  > John Dornheim
                                                  >
                                                  > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > **
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to this
                                                  > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --
                                                  and
                                                  > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I
                                                  was
                                                  > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of
                                                  the
                                                  > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,
                                                  shoulder,
                                                  > > sternum (again).
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                                  > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Peace
                                                  > > Dwight Penas
                                                  > > Minneapolis
                                                  > > ____________________________
                                                  > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > .
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                                                  wood
                                                  > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn for
                                                  > the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                                  >
                                                  > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ------------------------------------
                                                  >
                                                  > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                                                  > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                  ------------------------------------

                                                  Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                                  To write to the moderators, please email:
                                                  liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Scott Knitter
                                                  Most Episcopalians seem to return to the center. Many don t in our Anglo-Catholic parish, and I don t anymore, returning to the way I was brought up as a Roman
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Most Episcopalians seem to return to the center. Many don't in our
                                                    Anglo-Catholic parish, and I don't anymore, returning to the way I was
                                                    brought up as a Roman Catholic. Just up, down, left, right, and you're
                                                    done. Usually return to folded hands.

                                                    On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:

                                                    > There is a practice among some Lutherans (I among them) who go to the right first. Please, folks, I'm not looking to determine which practice is better. Lutherans have been impoverished by all but losing the sign of the cross, and I'm just happy people keep doing it, for heaven's sake. I simply seek information: My understanding has been (and most of the few manuals I've consulted reinforce) that in early times, the sign of the cross did not involve returning to the chest. I'm simply wondering whether there's research in how the practice developed over time.
                                                  • dlewisaao@aol.com
                                                    Check out _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross) which goes into some detail, including that the
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Check out

                                                      _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross_
                                                      (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross)

                                                      which goes into some detail, including that the Eastern way of doing it
                                                      predates the Western but going into much related background.

                                                      David


                                                      In a message dated 11/7/2011 10:03:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                                      DJP4LAW@... writes:


                                                      David,

                                                      There is a practice among some Lutherans (I among them) who go to the
                                                      right first. Please, folks, I'm not looking to determine which practice is
                                                      better. Lutherans have been impoverished by all but losing the sign of the
                                                      cross, and I'm just happy people keep doing it, for heaven's sake. I simply
                                                      seek information: My understanding has been (and most of the few manuals I've
                                                      consulted reinforce) that in early times, the sign of the cross did not
                                                      involve returning to the chest. I'm simply wondering whether there's research
                                                      in how the practice developed over time.



                                                      Peace
                                                      Dwight Penas
                                                      Minneapolis
                                                      ____________________________
                                                      "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.





                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: dlewisaao <dlewisaao@...>
                                                      To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 4:22 pm
                                                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross





                                                      All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left
                                                      and the Western Church does it the other way around!

                                                      David


                                                      In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                      lhwhitaker@... writes:

                                                      I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest
                                                      question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be
                                                      expected to "behave."

                                                      My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that
                                                      developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the
                                                      cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a
                                                      reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the
                                                      rosary.

                                                      But that's just my opinion.

                                                      Lew

                                                      On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim
                                                      <johndornheim@...>wrote:

                                                      > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our
                                                      way
                                                      > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure
                                                      > that there is a single/"correct" way.
                                                      >
                                                      > John Dornheim
                                                      >
                                                      > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > **
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to
                                                      this
                                                      > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --
                                                      and
                                                      > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I

                                                      was
                                                      > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of
                                                      the
                                                      > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,
                                                      shoulder,
                                                      > > sternum (again).
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about
                                                      > > this, but that was just so much **.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Peace
                                                      > > Dwight Penas
                                                      > > Minneapolis
                                                      > > ____________________________
                                                      > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > .
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --
                                                      > “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                                                      wood
                                                      > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn
                                                      for
                                                      > the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                                                      >
                                                      > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ------------------------------------
                                                      >
                                                      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,
                                                      please email:
                                                      > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                      ------------------------------------

                                                      Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                                      To write to the moderators, please email:
                                                      liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                      ------------------------------------

                                                      Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                                                      To write to the moderators, please email:
                                                      liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links





                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Bob White
                                                      ... No one ever taught me so to do, it just seems to me to be sort of the natural movement. I m sure once others observed that, some sort of symbolism was
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Monday, November 7, 2011, 10:03:15 AM, Dwight J. Penas wrote:

                                                        > the sign of the cross did not involve returning to the chest. I'm
                                                        > simply wondering whether there's research in how the practice developed over time.

                                                        No one ever taught me so to do, it just seems to me to be sort of the
                                                        natural movement. I'm sure once others observed that, some sort of
                                                        symbolism was promptly whomped up to justify it.

                                                        --
                                                        Bob mailto:rwhite84@...

                                                        Let us know that we are counted just before God, not
                                                        because he sees no iniquities in us, but because he freely
                                                        forgives them. --John Calvin
                                                      • Frank Senn
                                                        And then there s the suggestion that pastors or other worship leaders make the sign of the cross in reverse, if they are facing the people, because people in
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          And then there's the suggestion that pastors or other worship leaders make the sign of the cross in reverse, if they are facing the people, because people in the pews imitate the leader, but without changing direction.  I've noticed yoga teachers have caught on to this phenomenon.  They may say "put your right foot forward," but because they're facing the class they put their left foot forward.  So I make the sign of the cross from right shoulder to left in order to have the people imitate me from left shoulder to right.  Trust me, I've been doing this for years and it works!

                                                          Frank C. Senn

                                                          --- On Mon, 11/7/11, Bob White <rwhite84@...> wrote:

                                                          From: Bob White <rwhite84@...>
                                                          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross
                                                          To: "Dwight J. Penas" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Date: Monday, November 7, 2011, 9:19 AM








                                                           









                                                          Monday, November 7, 2011, 10:03:15 AM, Dwight J. Penas wrote:



                                                          > the sign of the cross did not involve returning to the chest. I'm

                                                          > simply wondering whether there's research in how the practice developed over time.



                                                          No one ever taught me so to do, it just seems to me to be sort of the

                                                          natural movement. I'm sure once others observed that, some sort of

                                                          symbolism was promptly whomped up to justify it.



                                                          --

                                                          Bob mailto:rwhite84@...



                                                          Let us know that we are counted just before God, not

                                                          because he sees no iniquities in us, but because he freely

                                                          forgives them. --John Calvin






















                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • Michael Thannisch
                                                          I ll note in passing that in some places in Latin America, but most especially Mexico, a small sign of the cross is made with the fingers at each point of the
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Nov 7, 2011
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            I'll note in passing that in some places in Latin America, but most especially Mexico, a small sign of the cross is made with the fingers at each point of the cross.

                                                            Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                                                            http://patriotstatesman.com/
                                                            http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
                                                            http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
                                                            http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan Ave.
                                                            La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)
                                                            281-867-0335 (office)
                                                            832-266-8153 (mobile)
                                                            281-867-0576 (fax)


                                                            --- On Mon, 11/7/11, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                                                            From: dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...>
                                                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross
                                                            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Date: Monday, November 7, 2011, 9:15 AM
















                                                             









                                                            Check out



                                                            _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross_

                                                            (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_Cross)



                                                            which goes into some detail, including that the Eastern way of doing it

                                                            predates the Western but going into much related background.



                                                            David





                                                            In a message dated 11/7/2011 10:03:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

                                                            DJP4LAW@... writes:



                                                            David,



                                                            There is a practice among some Lutherans (I among them) who go to the

                                                            right first. Please, folks, I'm not looking to determine which practice is

                                                            better. Lutherans have been impoverished by all but losing the sign of the

                                                            cross, and I'm just happy people keep doing it, for heaven's sake. I simply

                                                            seek information: My understanding has been (and most of the few manuals I've

                                                            consulted reinforce) that in early times, the sign of the cross did not

                                                            involve returning to the chest. I'm simply wondering whether there's research

                                                            in how the practice developed over time.



                                                            Peace

                                                            Dwight Penas

                                                            Minneapolis

                                                            ____________________________

                                                            "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.



                                                            -----Original Message-----

                                                            From: dlewisaao <dlewisaao@...>

                                                            To: liturgy-l <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>

                                                            Sent: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 4:22 pm

                                                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Sign of the Cross



                                                            All I know is that the Orthodox touch the right shoulder before the left

                                                            and the Western Church does it the other way around!



                                                            David



                                                            In a message dated 11/4/2011 5:17:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

                                                            lhwhitaker@... writes:



                                                            I don't see anything indicating a 'this way is best' but rather an honest

                                                            question about when this FORM of the sign was made. I think Dwight can be

                                                            expected to "behave."



                                                            My guess would be that it was a regionalism, or perhaps something that

                                                            developed from the rosary. When one prays the rosary he often kisses the

                                                            cross at the end. I always thought that the practice developed as a

                                                            reflexive movement that recalled when one may have been praying the

                                                            rosary.



                                                            But that's just my opinion.



                                                            Lew



                                                            On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:07 PM, John Dornheim

                                                            <johndornheim@...>wrote:



                                                            > I think that answering your question might just lead to another "my/our

                                                            way

                                                            > is better than your way" which this group seeks to avoid. I am not sure

                                                            > that there is a single/"correct" way.

                                                            >

                                                            > John Dornheim

                                                            >

                                                            > On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>

                                                            wrote:

                                                            >

                                                            > > **

                                                            > >

                                                            > >

                                                            > >

                                                            > > I've lost patience trying to access the archives for an answer to

                                                            this

                                                            > > question (I know how to do it; it's just not working for me today --

                                                            and

                                                            > > I'm in a bad mood to start). After watching *The Way* last evening, I



                                                            was

                                                            > > reminded that I don't know whence the practice of making the sign of

                                                            the

                                                            > > cross and ending at the sternum -- i.e., head, chest, shoulder,

                                                            shoulder,

                                                            > > sternum (again).

                                                            > >

                                                            > > Can someone enlighten me, please? I once speculated to a friend about

                                                            > > this, but that was just so much **.

                                                            > >

                                                            > > Peace

                                                            > > Dwight Penas

                                                            > > Minneapolis

                                                            > > ____________________________

                                                            > > "Responsibility is the ability to respond." -- Robert Duncan.

                                                            > >

                                                            > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use

                                                            > >

                                                            > >

                                                            > >

                                                            > >

                                                            > >

                                                            > > .

                                                            > >

                                                            > >

                                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                            > >

                                                            > >

                                                            > >

                                                            >

                                                            >

                                                            >

                                                            > --

                                                            > “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect

                                                            wood

                                                            > and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to yearn

                                                            for

                                                            > the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay

                                                            >

                                                            > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/

                                                            >

                                                            >

                                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                            >

                                                            >

                                                            >

                                                            > ------------------------------------

                                                            >

                                                            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at

                                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,

                                                            please email:

                                                            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

                                                            >

                                                            >

                                                            >

                                                            >



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