Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [liturgy-l] Confirmation: Anointing and Laying on hands

Expand Messages
  • Lewis Whitaker
    Can you give some more context? Is it the same annointing done twice, or does it have separate meanings (however they may be allegorized)? Lew ... [Non-text
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 31, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Can you give some more context? Is it the same annointing done twice, or
      does it have separate meanings (however they may be allegorized)?

      Lew

      On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 8:41 PM, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:

      > Interesting question since the Roman Rite historically and uniquely has
      > two post-baptismal anointings.
      >
      > Frank C. Senn
      >
      > --- On Mon, 10/31/11, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
      > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Confirmation: Anointing and Laying on hands
      > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 5:38 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Why on earth would you chrismate TWICE? Now *that* seems like
      > diluting a
      >
      > sacrament to me.
      >
      >
      >
      > Lew
      >
      >
      >
      > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:32 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > > At my former Episcopal parish, the practice has been to chrismate both at
      >
      > > baptism and confirmation. I'm aware that in many quarters of various
      >
      > > churches confirmation is regarded as a sacrament looking for a meaning,
      > but
      >
      > > thank God such is not the case at St Paul's K Street!
      >
      > >
      >
      > > David
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > In a message dated 10/31/2011 5:28:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      >
      > > mjthannisch@... writes:
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Officially, I don't think they have yet, unless you count chrismation of
      >
      > > the newly baptised as confirmation. That is the closest to it in the
      > 1979
      >
      > > BCP. Otherwise there is no mention of it in the BCP, although I am sure
      >
      > > some bishops do it.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach +Mar Michael Abportus
      >
      > > mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
      >
      > > http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
      >
      > > http://patriotstatesman.com/
      >
      > > http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
      >
      > > http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
      >
      > > http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204
      >
      > > Sylvan Ave.
      >
      > > La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)
      >
      > > 281-867-0335 (office)
      >
      > > 832-266-8153 (mobile)
      >
      > > 281-867-0576 (fax)
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > --- On Mon, 10/31/11, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > > From: Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...>
      >
      > > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Confirmation: Anointing and Laying on hands
      >
      > > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > > Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 3:21 PM
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Thanks Doug.
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > So I take it that Rome retained the use of Chrism at Confirmation
      > through
      >
      > >
      >
      > > history.
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Does anyone know when Anglicans found it again for Confirmation?
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Ian
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > __________________________________________________________
      >
      > >
      >
      > > LGBT Monthly Mass - see our church blog <http://wp.me/ptISx-3C>
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > ------------------------------------
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
      >
      > > To write to the moderators, please email:
      >
      > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > ------------------------------------
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,
      > please email:
      >
      > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
      > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Frank Senn
      In the so-called Apostolic Tradition attributed to Hippolytus the candidates are anointed by the presbyter when they come up from the font and are anointed
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        In the so-called Apostolic Tradition attributed to Hippolytus the candidates are anointed by the presbyter when they come up from the font and are anointed again by the bishop, who also lays hands on them and invokes the Holy Spirit, when they are led into the assembly.  Even if it be argued that AT cannot be claimed to be the actual Roman Rite, the very same sequence is prescribed in Ordo Romanus XI a couple of centuries later, and along with the Gelasian Sacramentary these are foundational documents for the medieval Western rite of Baptism.  When the episcopal imposition of hands and anointing became a separate rite of confirmation, the two anointings continued to be practiced, and remains the Roman practice today.

        Frank C. Senn

        --- On Mon, 10/31/11, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

        From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Confirmation: Anointing and Laying on hands
        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:21 PM








         









        Can you give some more context? Is it the same annointing done twice, or

        does it have separate meanings (however they may be allegorized)?



        Lew



        On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 8:41 PM, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:



        > Interesting question since the Roman Rite historically and uniquely has

        > two post-baptismal anointings.

        >

        > Frank C. Senn

        >

        > --- On Mon, 10/31/11, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

        >

        > From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>

        > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Confirmation: Anointing and Laying on hands

        > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

        > Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 5:38 PM

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        > Why on earth would you chrismate TWICE? Now *that* seems like

        > diluting a

        >

        > sacrament to me.

        >

        >

        >

        > Lew

        >

        >

        >

        > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:32 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

        >

        >

        >

        > > At my former Episcopal parish, the practice has been to chrismate both at

        >

        > > baptism and confirmation. I'm aware that in many quarters of various

        >

        > > churches confirmation is regarded as a sacrament looking for a meaning,

        > but

        >

        > > thank God such is not the case at St Paul's K Street!

        >

        > >

        >

        > > David

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > In a message dated 10/31/2011 5:28:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

        >

        > > mjthannisch@... writes:

        >

        > >

        >

        > > Officially, I don't think they have yet, unless you count chrismation of

        >

        > > the newly baptised as confirmation. That is the closest to it in the

        > 1979

        >

        > > BCP. Otherwise there is no mention of it in the BCP, although I am sure

        >

        > > some bishops do it.

        >

        > >

        >

        > > Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach +Mar Michael Abportus

        >

        > > mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham

        >

        > > http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/

        >

        > > http://patriotstatesman.com/

        >

        > > http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/

        >

        > > http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/

        >

        > > http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204

        >

        > > Sylvan Ave.

        >

        > > La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)

        >

        > > 281-867-0335 (office)

        >

        > > 832-266-8153 (mobile)

        >

        > > 281-867-0576 (fax)

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > --- On Mon, 10/31/11, Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...> wrote:

        >

        > >

        >

        > > From: Ian Gomersall <ian.gomersall@...>

        >

        > > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Confirmation: Anointing and Laying on hands

        >

        > > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

        >

        > > Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 3:21 PM

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > Thanks Doug.

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > So I take it that Rome retained the use of Chrism at Confirmation

        > through

        >

        > >

        >

        > > history.

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > Does anyone know when Anglicans found it again for Confirmation?

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > Ian

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > __________________________________________________________

        >

        > >

        >

        > > LGBT Monthly Mass - see our church blog <http://wp.me/ptISx-3C>

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > ------------------------------------

        >

        > >

        >

        > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at

        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/

        >

        > > To write to the moderators, please email:

        >

        > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > > ------------------------------------

        >

        > >

        >

        > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at

        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,

        > please email:

        >

        > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        > >

        >

        >

        >

        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        >

        >

        > ------------------------------------

        >

        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:

        > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links

        >

        >

        >

        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • James
        ... Is that because they remain separated twins theologically (in a manner of speaking)? I think they were joined together with first communion at the
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          > As many have said, confirmation is a rite in search of a theology.
          >
          > Doug Cowling

          Is that because they remain 'separated twins' theologically (in a manner of speaking)? I think they were joined together with first communion at the beginning (pre or post Constantine, whatever), butI don't think that initiation into the church was bifurcated at such an early age, only later in that nasty medieval dark age in the west.

          We in the east never did that but we are not triumphal, just educational.

          Ho Ho, your responses may vary but please pray for me anyway!

          rdr. james Morgan

          -
        • James
          Fr. Frank, I think you are capable of answering many questions in the Western sphere! I think myself, being a benighted lay person that no amount of anointings
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 1, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Fr. Frank, I think you are capable of answering many questions in the Western sphere!
            I think myself, being a benighted lay person that no amount of anointings and layings of hands could be enough if one wanted to truly be confirmed!

            Rdr James

            --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:
            >
            > In the so-called Apostolic Tradition attributed to Hippolytus the candidates are anointed by the presbyter when they come up from the font and are anointed again by the bishop, who also lays hands on them and invokes the Holy Spirit, when they are led into the assembly.  Even if it be argued that AT cannot be claimed to be the actual Roman Rite, the very same sequence is prescribed in Ordo Romanus XI a couple of centuries later, and along with the Gelasian Sacramentary these are foundational documents for the medieval Western rite of Baptism.  When the episcopal imposition of hands and anointing became a separate rite of confirmation, the two anointings continued to be practiced, and remains the Roman practice today.
            >
            > Frank C. Senn
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.