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Re: [liturgy-l] see, Catholics are doin' it too!

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  • dlewisaao@aol.com
    Liturgical reform should be ongoing at both the parish and denominational levels. It s when such reform is not ongoing that we run into the situation we are
    Message 1 of 81 , Jul 4 9:11 AM
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      Liturgical reform should be ongoing at both the parish and denominational
      levels. It's when such reform is not ongoing that we run into the
      situation we are now discussing.

      David


      In a message dated 7/4/2011 12:06:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      fcsenn@... writes:

      Authentic tradition is a living organism that receives sustenance from
      its roots and is always sprouting new branches. Sometimes it is
      necessary to prune the growth to allow for greater fruitfulness. That is
      what reform does, and liturgical history is replete with reform movements
      every few centuries.

      The criticism of the post-Vatican II reform is that it pruned too much.
      It seems to me that the "reform of the reform" in its popular mode (not as
      espoused by Pope Benedict) relies on the method of repristination, which
      assumes that there was some absolute norm in the past that should be plucked
      up out of its time and plunked down in the present time without any
      consideration for what historical factors created that "norm" in the first place or
      what social factors are at work in the world today, including the world of
      contemporary liturgical assemblies. Aidan Kavanagh used to call it
      "liturgical fundamentalism."

      Fundamentalism and historical criticism are usually at odds each other and
      often talk passed each other.

      Frank C. Senn


      --- On Mon, 7/4/11, SJZiobro@... <SJZiobro@...> wrote:

      From: SJZiobro@... <SJZiobro@...>
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] see, Catholics are doin' it too!
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, July 4, 2011, 10:18 AM

















      Frank,





      These are engaging remarks. Thank you. In your assessment what are the
      principles of authentic tradition you judge are being rejected in the
      present liturgical ethos? Also, do you think that those who are the principal
      agents in what you term "a repristinaton of pre-Vatican theology and
      practices" would consider that they themselves are engaged in rejecting principles
      of authentic tradition and inculturation?



      Regards,



      Stan



      -----Original Message-----

      From: Frank Senn <fcsenn@...>

      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

      Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 10:52 am

      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] see, Catholics are doin' it too!



      Sean et al,



      One doesn't have to be a member of the Latin Rite to understand the
      dynamics at work here. In many of our traditions the principles and practices of
      liturgical renewal developed 40-50 years ago are being set aside by a
      repristination of pre-Vatican theology and practices. It takes one form in the
      Roman tradition---a return to Latin masses, whether 1570ff. or 1962. It
      takes other forms in other traditions---for example, Lutherans reverting to
      theologies and practices of orthodoxy or pietism. Those of us who promoted
      liturgical renewal in the years after Vatican II see a rejection of
      principles of both authentic tradition ("tradition as the living faith of the
      dead rather than the dead faith of the living." as Jaroslav Pelikan put it)
      and inculturation (of which vernacularization is a part) that were hallmarks
      of liturgical renewal, aimed at making liturgy more truly the public work
      of the people of God.



      Now you can say that we were misguided, or that the renewal created
      problems that now need to be rectified (he reform of the reform). But you have
      to understand that there is a sadness among some of us who see the work of a
      lifetime being rejected. And you also have to understand our admonition
      that "you can't go home again." Roman Catholics aren't going to do a 1962,
      much less a 1570, rite the way it was done in 1962 or 1570, any more than
      Lutherans are going to return to the Common Service. There is always
      adaptation of historic rites to contemporary exigencies.



      Frank C. Senn



      --- On Mon, 7/4/11, Sean W. Reed <skreed1@...> wrote:



      From: Sean W. Reed <skreed1@...>

      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] see, Catholics are doin' it too!

      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

      Date: Monday, July 4, 2011, 8:22 AM



      Why does that bother you? These are BOTH valid expressions of the Roman
      Rite. It helps to underscore that vernacular is not the only answer.



      Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:



      >On 7/4/11 12:40 AM, "Rdr James" <rdrjames@...> wrote:



      >



      >Monsignor Andrew Wadsworth, executive director of the International



      >Commission on English in the Liturgy (ICEL), was the celebrant for a
      special



      >Ember Day Solemn High Mass in the Extraordinary Form.



      >



      >



      >Another step forward for vernacular liturgy.



      >



      >Doug Cowling



      >Director of Music



      >St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke



      >Toronto



      >



      >



      >



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    • Douglas Cowling
      On 7/22/11 3:24 PM, Frank Senn wrote: Why back in 1969, when the reformed Roman Missal came out, at Gloria Dei Church in South Bend we
      Message 81 of 81 , Jul 22 12:54 PM
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        On 7/22/11 3:24 PM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...> wrote:

        Why back in 1969, when the reformed Roman Missal came out, at Gloria Dei
        Church in South Bend we did Luther's Formula Missae in Latin on Reformation
        Sunday, and kept on doing it annually for a  number of years thereafter.  We
        had people coming from Notre Dame to behold this wonder (and probably some
        Polish Catholics from South Bend, too!).


        When Pius XII was nuncio in Germany, he made a private trip to pray alone at
        the tomb of Martin Luther. There is probably a good case to be made that
        his plans for liturgical reform were formulating during this period.

        Evidently, Benedict XVI's upcoming trip to Germany will include visits to
        places associated with Martin Luther:

        http://tinyurl.com/3jcxzar

        Doug Cowling
        Director of Music
        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        Toronto
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