Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
Skip to search.
 

Sign of the cross

Expand Messages
  • Dwight J. Penas
    Here s a question that may only interest Lutherans who use the cranberry book -- er, Evangelical Lutheran Worship. In the rite for the confiteor (I haven t
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 30, 2011
      Here's a question that may only interest Lutherans who use the cranberry book -- er, Evangelical Lutheran Worship.

      In the rite for the confiteor (I haven't checked elsewhere), the symbol that it is appropriate to make the sign of the cross ("+") shows up in the alternative "invocation" which addresses God -- not as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but -- as Holy (or is it Blessed?) Trinity. Now I was taught that "signing" at anything other than the name of God (F,S,HS) -- and perhaps "at the name of Jesus" -- was inappropriate. Since Holy/Blessed Trinity isn't a name, it galls me to see this. Am I wasting good gall? Should I learn to like this?





      Peace
      Dwight Penas
      Minneapolis
      ____________________________
      He Who is above, now for our redemption dwells here below; and he that was lowly is by divine mercy raised. -- St. John Chrysostom


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sean W. Reed
      Just curious as to the full text/context? SWR
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 30, 2011
        Just curious as to the full text/context?


        SWR

        "Dwight J. Penas" <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:

        >Here's a question that may only interest Lutherans who use the cranberry book -- er, Evangelical Lutheran Worship.
        >
        >In the rite for the confiteor (I haven't checked elsewhere), the symbol that it is appropriate to make the sign of the cross ("+") shows up in the alternative "invocation" which addresses God -- not as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but -- as Holy (or is it Blessed?) Trinity. Now I was taught that "signing" at anything other than the name of God (F,S,HS) -- and perhaps "at the name of Jesus" -- was inappropriate. Since Holy/Blessed Trinity isn't a name, it galls me to see this. Am I wasting good gall? Should I learn to like this?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Peace
        >Dwight Penas
        >Minneapolis
        >____________________________
        >He Who is above, now for our redemption dwells here below; and he that was lowly is by divine mercy raised. -- St. John Chrysostom
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Bob White
        ... There are two points in one of the ELW orders for Confession and Forgiveness that in my judgment offer questionable points for the sign of the cross: The
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 30, 2011
          Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 12:05:27 PM, Dwight J. Penas wrote:

          > the symbol that it is appropriate to make the sign of the cross
          > ("+") shows up in the alternative "invocation" which addresses God
          > -- not as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but -- as Holy (or is it Blessed?) Trinity.

          There are two points in one of the ELW orders for "Confession and
          Forgiveness" that in my judgment offer questionable points for the
          sign of the cross:

          The confession begins: "Blessed the the Holy Trinity, + one God . . .";
          and ends . . . "In the name of + Jesus Christ your sins are forgiven .
          . ."

          The first is distressing, the second boggles this mind.

          --
          Bob mailto:rwhite84@...

          It has been said that though God cannot alter the past,
          historians can; it is perhaps because they can be useful to Him
          in this respect that He tolerates their existence.
          -- Samuel Bulter--Erewhon Revisited
        • Frank Senn
          Every time I open ELW I find something distressing or that boogles the mind.  So I just keep it closed. The sign of the cross can have several uses: to
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 30, 2011
            Every time I open ELW I find something distressing or that boogles the mind.  So I just keep it closed.

            The sign of the cross can have several uses: to accompany a blessing, as an act of identification, and to ward off evil are among them.

            Frank C. Senn

            --- On Wed, 3/30/11, Bob White <rwhite84@...> wrote:

            From: Bob White <rwhite84@...>
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Sign of the cross
            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 11:30 AM

            Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 12:05:27 PM, Dwight J. Penas wrote:

            > the symbol that it is appropriate to make the sign of the cross
            > ("+") shows up in the alternative "invocation" which addresses God
            > -- not as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but -- as Holy (or is it Blessed?) Trinity.

            There are two points in one of the ELW orders for "Confession and
            Forgiveness" that in my judgment offer questionable points for the
            sign of the cross:

            The confession begins: "Blessed the the Holy Trinity, + one God . . .";
            and ends . . . "In the name of + Jesus Christ your sins are forgiven .
            . ."

            The first is distressing, the second boggles this mind.

            --
            Bob                            mailto:rwhite84@...

            It has been said that though God cannot alter the past,
            historians can; it is perhaps because they can be useful to Him
            in this respect that He tolerates their existence.
            -- Samuel Bulter--Erewhon Revisited



            ------------------------------------

            Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John Dornheim
            Perhaps you were taught incorrectly? differently? I make the sign of the cross over the communion elements duringe consecration. I cross myself three times
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 30, 2011
              Perhaps you were taught incorrectly? differently? I make the sign of
              the cross over the communion elements duringe consecration. I cross
              myself three times before I read the Gospel. I imposen an ashen cross
              on the appropriate Wednesday. I don't recall naming the three Persons
              of the Trinity in those times.
              Actually, what I find appalling is clergy who don't make the sign of the cross.

              John Dornheim

              On 3/30/11, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:
              > Here's a question that may only interest Lutherans who use the cranberry
              > book -- er, Evangelical Lutheran Worship.
              >
              > In the rite for the confiteor (I haven't checked elsewhere), the symbol that
              > it is appropriate to make the sign of the cross ("+") shows up in the
              > alternative "invocation" which addresses God -- not as Father, Son, and Holy
              > Spirit, but -- as Holy (or is it Blessed?) Trinity. Now I was taught that
              > "signing" at anything other than the name of God (F,S,HS) -- and perhaps "at
              > the name of Jesus" -- was inappropriate. Since Holy/Blessed Trinity isn't a
              > name, it galls me to see this. Am I wasting good gall? Should I learn to
              > like this?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Peace
              > Dwight Penas
              > Minneapolis
              > ____________________________
              > He Who is above, now for our redemption dwells here below; and he that was
              > lowly is by divine mercy raised. -- St. John Chrysostom
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >


              --
              “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
              wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to
              yearn for the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay

              Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
            • Lewis H. Whitaker
              There are plenty of traditions where the clergy doesnt make the sign of the cross. This seems rather judgmental. Lew On Mar 30, 2011, at 6:36 PM, John Dornheim
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 30, 2011
                There are plenty of traditions where the clergy doesnt make the sign of the cross.

                This seems rather judgmental.

                Lew


                On Mar 30, 2011, at 6:36 PM, John Dornheim <johndornheim@...> wrote:

                Actually, what I find appalling is clergy who don't make the sign of the cross.
                >
                > John Dornheim
                >
                > On 3/30/11, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:
                >> Here's a question that may only interest Lutherans who use the cranberry
                >> book -- er, Evangelical Lutheran Worship.
                >>
                >> In the rite for the confiteor (I haven't checked elsewhere), the symbol that
                >> it is appropriate to make the sign of the cross ("+") shows up in the
                >> alternative "invocation" which addresses God -- not as Father, Son, and Holy
                >> Spirit, but -- as Holy (or is it Blessed?) Trinity. Now I was taught that
                >> "signing" at anything other than the name of God (F,S,HS) -- and perhaps "at
                >> the name of Jesus" -- was inappropriate. Since Holy/Blessed Trinity isn't a
                >> name, it galls me to see this. Am I wasting good gall? Should I learn to
                >> like this?
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Peace
                >> Dwight Penas
                >> Minneapolis
                >> ____________________________
                >> He Who is above, now for our redemption dwells here below; and he that was
                >> lowly is by divine mercy raised. -- St. John Chrysostom
                >>
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > --
                > “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                > wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to
                > yearn for the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                >
                > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • John Dornheim
                Those traditions were not of which I was speaking. John Dornheim ... -- “If you want to build a ship, don t drum up people together to collect wood and don t
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 30, 2011
                  Those traditions were not of which I was speaking.

                  John Dornheim

                  On 3/30/11, Lewis H. Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
                  > There are plenty of traditions where the clergy doesnt make the sign of the
                  > cross.
                  >
                  > This seems rather judgmental.
                  >
                  > Lew
                  >
                  >
                  > On Mar 30, 2011, at 6:36 PM, John Dornheim <johndornheim@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Actually, what I find appalling is clergy who don't make the sign of the
                  > cross.
                  >>
                  >> John Dornheim
                  >>
                  >> On 3/30/11, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:
                  >>> Here's a question that may only interest Lutherans who use the cranberry
                  >>> book -- er, Evangelical Lutheran Worship.
                  >>>
                  >>> In the rite for the confiteor (I haven't checked elsewhere), the symbol
                  >>> that
                  >>> it is appropriate to make the sign of the cross ("+") shows up in the
                  >>> alternative "invocation" which addresses God -- not as Father, Son, and
                  >>> Holy
                  >>> Spirit, but -- as Holy (or is it Blessed?) Trinity. Now I was taught that
                  >>> "signing" at anything other than the name of God (F,S,HS) -- and perhaps
                  >>> "at
                  >>> the name of Jesus" -- was inappropriate. Since Holy/Blessed Trinity isn't
                  >>> a
                  >>> name, it galls me to see this. Am I wasting good gall? Should I learn to
                  >>> like this?
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> Peace
                  >>> Dwight Penas
                  >>> Minneapolis
                  >>> ____________________________
                  >>> He Who is above, now for our redemption dwells here below; and he that
                  >>> was
                  >>> lowly is by divine mercy raised. -- St. John Chrysostom
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> --
                  >> “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                  >> wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to
                  >> yearn for the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                  >>
                  >> Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                  >> To write to the moderators, please email:
                  >> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >


                  --
                  “If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                  wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to
                  yearn for the endless immensity of the sea.” Antoine de Saint-Exuperay

                  Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                • Lewis Whitaker
                  Oh, I must have misread. I guess those folks aren t clergy. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 30, 2011
                    Oh, I must have misread. I guess those folks aren't clergy.



                    On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 12:01 AM, John Dornheim <johndornheim@...>wrote:

                    > Those traditions were not of which I was speaking.
                    >
                    > John Dornheim
                    >
                    > On 3/30/11, Lewis H. Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
                    > > There are plenty of traditions where the clergy doesnt make the sign of
                    > the
                    > > cross.
                    > >
                    > > This seems rather judgmental.
                    > >
                    > > Lew
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Mar 30, 2011, at 6:36 PM, John Dornheim <johndornheim@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Actually, what I find appalling is clergy who don't make the sign of the
                    > > cross.
                    > >>
                    > >> John Dornheim
                    > >>
                    > >> On 3/30/11, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:
                    > >>> Here's a question that may only interest Lutherans who use the
                    > cranberry
                    > >>> book -- er, Evangelical Lutheran Worship.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> In the rite for the confiteor (I haven't checked elsewhere), the symbol
                    > >>> that
                    > >>> it is appropriate to make the sign of the cross ("+") shows up in the
                    > >>> alternative "invocation" which addresses God -- not as Father, Son, and
                    > >>> Holy
                    > >>> Spirit, but -- as Holy (or is it Blessed?) Trinity. Now I was taught
                    > that
                    > >>> "signing" at anything other than the name of God (F,S,HS) -- and
                    > perhaps
                    > >>> "at
                    > >>> the name of Jesus" -- was inappropriate. Since Holy/Blessed Trinity
                    > isn't
                    > >>> a
                    > >>> name, it galls me to see this. Am I wasting good gall? Should I learn
                    > to
                    > >>> like this?
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Peace
                    > >>> Dwight Penas
                    > >>> Minneapolis
                    > >>> ____________________________
                    > >>> He Who is above, now for our redemption dwells here below; and he that
                    > >>> was
                    > >>> lowly is by divine mercy raised. -- St. John Chrysostom
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> --
                    > >> �If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                    > >> wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to
                    > >> yearn for the endless immensity of the sea.� Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                    > >>
                    > >> Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> ------------------------------------
                    > >>
                    > >> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                    > >> To write to the moderators, please email:
                    > >> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > �If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect
                    > wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to
                    > yearn for the endless immensity of the sea.� Antoine de Saint-Exuperay
                    >
                    > Follow my blog at http://churchstuff-moreorless.blogspot.com/
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                    > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.