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Ordinariate Heraldry

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  • Douglas Cowling
    And now the burning question for the Anglican ordinariates: Heraldic tassels and personal mitres on coats of arms!
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
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      And now the burning question for the Anglican ordinariates: Heraldic tassels
      and personal mitres on coats of arms!

      http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2011/02/croziers-keys-and-the-archdeacon%E2%
      80%99s-tassels-a-heraldic-system-for-the-anglican-ordinariates/

      Ah, the treasures of the Anglican patrimony ....

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto
    • lhwatl
      Oooh! They re pretty! Will the Ordinariates revive the use of galleros? I mean, they re pretty, but archaic and of little use. Wouldn t that be perfect? Lew
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
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        Oooh! They're pretty!

        Will the Ordinariates revive the use of galleros? I mean, they're pretty, but archaic and of little use. Wouldn't that be perfect?

        Lew

        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
        >
        > And now the burning question for the Anglican ordinariates: Heraldic tassels
        > and personal mitres on coats of arms!
        >
        > http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2011/02/croziers-keys-and-the-archdeacon%E2%
        > 80%99s-tassels-a-heraldic-system-for-the-anglican-ordinariates/
        >
        > Ah, the treasures of the Anglican patrimony ....
        >
        > Doug Cowling
        > Director of Music
        > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        > Toronto
        >
      • Michael Thannisch
        I was at an RC funeral today, and heard something I had never heard before, that the Pall was symbolic of the clothes in which Jesus was wrapped in.  Has
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 12, 2011
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          I was at an RC funeral today, and heard something I had never heard before, that the Pall was symbolic of the clothes in which Jesus was wrapped in.  Has anyone else heard this?

          Something else puzzled me.  Three floor candlestands.  One to the (celebrant's) right of the lectern, and two to the left of the altar.  I didn't quite understand the idea of this.



          Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
          http://patriotstatesman.com/
          http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
          http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
          http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan Ave.
          La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)
          281-867-0335 (office)
          832-266-8153 (mobile)
          281-867-0576 (fax)


          --- On Sat, 2/12/11, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

          From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
          Subject: [liturgy-l] Ordinariate Heraldry
          To: "Liturgy-Well-Done" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 2:43 PM







           









          And now the burning question for the Anglican ordinariates: Heraldic tassels

          and personal mitres on coats of arms!



          http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2011/02/croziers-keys-and-the-archdeacon%E2%

          80%99s-tassels-a-heraldic-system-for-the-anglican-ordinariates/



          Ah, the treasures of the Anglican patrimony ....



          Doug Cowling

          Director of Music

          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke

          Toronto






















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Frank Senn
          I suppose they had to come up with some explanation when the color of palls changed from purple to white.  I would think being covered with the righteousness
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
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            I suppose they had to come up with some explanation when the color of palls changed from purple to white.  I would think being covered with the righteousness of Christ makes a better explanation, but then I'm a Lutheran.  It's all halakah.

            Frank C. Senn


            --- On Sun, 2/13/11, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

            From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]
            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 1:08 AM







             









            I was at an RC funeral today, and heard something I had never heard before, that the Pall was symbolic of the clothes in which Jesus was wrapped in.  Has anyone else heard this?



            Something else puzzled me.  Three floor candlestands.  One to the (celebrant's) right of the lectern, and two to the left of the altar.  I didn't quite understand the idea of this.



            Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/

            http://patriotstatesman.com/

            http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/

            http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/

            http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan Ave.

            La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)

            281-867-0335 (office)

            832-266-8153 (mobile)

            281-867-0576 (fax)



            --- On Sat, 2/12/11, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:



            From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>

            Subject: [liturgy-l] Ordinariate Heraldry

            To: "Liturgy-Well-Done" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>

            Date: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 2:43 PM



             



            And now the burning question for the Anglican ordinariates: Heraldic tassels



            and personal mitres on coats of arms!



            http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2011/02/croziers-keys-and-the-archdeacon%E2%



            80%99s-tassels-a-heraldic-system-for-the-anglican-ordinariates/



            Ah, the treasures of the Anglican patrimony ....



            Doug Cowling



            Director of Music



            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke



            Toronto



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sean W. Reed
            Lew - The old maxim remains, if one is going to be excessive, be terribly so! Sean
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
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              Lew -


              The old maxim remains, if one is going to be excessive, be terribly so!



              Sean

              lhwatl <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

              >Oooh! They're pretty!
              >
              >Will the Ordinariates revive the use of galleros? I mean, they're pretty, but archaic and of little use. Wouldn't that be perfect?
              >
              >Lew
              >
              >--- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> And now the burning question for the Anglican ordinariates: Heraldic tassels
              >> and personal mitres on coats of arms!
              >>
              >> http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2011/02/croziers-keys-and-the-archdeacon%E2%
              >> 80%99s-tassels-a-heraldic-system-for-the-anglican-ordinariates/
              >>
              >> Ah, the treasures of the Anglican patrimony ....
              >>
              >> Doug Cowling
              >> Director of Music
              >> St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
              >> Toronto
              >>
              >
              >
            • Douglas Cowling
              On 2/13/11 2:08 AM, Michael Thannisch wrote: I was at an RC funeral today, and heard something I had never heard before, that the
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
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                On 2/13/11 2:08 AM, "Michael Thannisch" <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                I was at an RC funeral today, and heard something I had never heard before,
                that the Pall was symbolic of the clothes in which Jesus was wrapped in. Has
                anyone else heard this?


                "The Rites" (Collegeville) has the approved funeral rites for the US church.
                The Preface has the following explanation:

                133. ... If it is the custom of the local community, a funeral pall, a
                reminder of the garment given at baptism, and therefore signifying life in
                Christ, may then be placed on the coffin by family members, friends or the
                minister.

                Sounds like your funeral was a midrash melange.

                Doug Cowling
                Director of Music
                St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                Toronto
              • Michael Thannisch
                That is kind of what I thought.  I had one other problem there.  They needed hangings.  Between the sound system, the priests strong accent and the echoing
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
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                  That is kind of what I thought.  I had one other problem there.  They needed hangings.  Between the sound system, the priests strong accent and the echoing it was very hard to follow what he was saying.   I think some sound system modification and maybe banners or tapestries would have made a huge difference. 

                  Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                  http://patriotstatesman.com/
                  http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
                  http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
                  http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan Ave.
                  La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)
                  281-867-0335 (office)
                  832-266-8153 (mobile)
                  281-867-0576 (fax)


                  --- On Sun, 2/13/11, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                  From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l]
                  To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 1:43 PM







                   









                  On 2/13/11 2:08 AM, "Michael Thannisch" <mjthannisch@...> wrote:



                  I was at an RC funeral today, and heard something I had never heard before,

                  that the Pall was symbolic of the clothes in which Jesus was wrapped in. Has

                  anyone else heard this?



                  "The Rites" (Collegeville) has the approved funeral rites for the US church.

                  The Preface has the following explanation:



                  133. ... If it is the custom of the local community, a funeral pall, a

                  reminder of the garment given at baptism, and therefore signifying life in

                  Christ, may then be placed on the coffin by family members, friends or the

                  minister.



                  Sounds like your funeral was a midrash melange.



                  Doug Cowling

                  Director of Music

                  St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke

                  Toronto






















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James O'Regan
                  Or one could speak louder, without a microphone, and speak slower: loud and slow - that works. All the best, James O Regan oregan@jamesoregan.com
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
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                    Or one could speak louder, without a microphone, and speak slower: loud and slow - that works.

                    All the best,

                    James O'Regan
                    oregan@...


                    On 2011-02-13, at 3:06 PM, Michael Thannisch wrote:

                    > That is kind of what I thought. I had one other problem there. They needed hangings. Between the sound system, the priests strong accent and the echoing it was very hard to follow what he was saying. I think some sound system modification and maybe banners or tapestries would have made a huge difference.
                    >
                  • Michael Thannisch
                    I agree.  I think removing the microphone would have really helped.  Many of us use microphones when we do not really need them.  Sadly in Latin America
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 13, 2011
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                      I agree.  I think removing the microphone would have really helped.  Many of us use microphones when we do not really need them.  Sadly in Latin America almost everyone uses a microphone with sound system set to #10 on the Richter scale. 

                      Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                      http://patriotstatesman.com/
                      http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
                      http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
                      http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan Ave.
                      La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)
                      281-867-0335 (office)
                      832-266-8153 (mobile)
                      281-867-0576 (fax)


                      --- On Sun, 2/13/11, James O'Regan <oregan@...> wrote:

                      From: James O'Regan <oregan@...>
                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Pall symbolism
                      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 3:52 PM






                      You chose to allow liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com even though this message failed authentication

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                    • Frank Senn
                      It s the same with the African congregation that meets in our church  building on Sunday afternoon.  Our nave has perfect acoustics for any musical
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 14, 2011
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                        It's the same with the African congregation that meets in our church  building on Sunday afternoon.  Our nave has perfect acoustics for any musical performance.  A single violin or flute can fill the space with sound.  But as the Africans have inculturated into the American scene, they gave up their drums and acoustical instruments for amplified instruments set at high decibels.  I've even had neighbors complain about the "noise" when the windows are open in warm weather.  At times when I have dropped into their worship I have to stuff my ears. 

                        Frank C. Senn 

                        --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...> wrote:

                        From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Pall symbolism
                        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 1:48 AM







                         









                        I agree.  I think removing the microphone would have really helped.  Many of us use microphones when we do not really need them.  Sadly in Latin America almost everyone uses a microphone with sound system set to #10 on the Richter scale. 



                        Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/

                        http://patriotstatesman.com/

                        http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/

                        http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/

                        http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan Ave.

                        La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)

                        281-867-0335 (office)

                        832-266-8153 (mobile)

                        281-867-0576 (fax)



                        --- On Sun, 2/13/11, James O'Regan <oregan@...> wrote:



                        From: James O'Regan <oregan@...>

                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Pall symbolism

                        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

                        Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 3:52 PM



                        You chose to allow liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com even though this message failed authentication



                        Click to disallow



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                      • John Seboldt
                        ... An interesting counter-example for our Christmas concert... here speaking of African-American Gospel... a fine high school Gospel group came in, complete
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 14, 2011
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                          On 2/14/2011 7:38 AM, Frank Senn wrote:
                          >
                          > It's the same with the African congregation that meets in our church
                          > building on Sunday afternoon. Our nave has perfect acoustics for any
                          > musical performance. A single violin or flute can fill the space with
                          > sound. But as the Africans have inculturated into the American scene,
                          > they gave up their drums and acoustical instruments for amplified
                          > instruments set at high decibels. I've even had neighbors complain
                          > about the "noise" when the windows are open in warm weather. At times
                          > when I have dropped into their worship I have to stuff my ears.
                          >
                          > Frank C. Senn
                          >
                          An interesting counter-example for our Christmas concert... here
                          speaking of African-American Gospel... a fine high school Gospel group
                          came in, complete with electronic keyboards... but the keyboardists saw
                          the two grand pianos that we had arranged neatly for a two-piano piece,
                          and it was like moths to light: they sat down and just started
                          improvising like mad. The keyboards stayed propped up near the door and
                          they used those! So the only electronics was for the bass (and a mike
                          for the soloists, which we kept moderate). Plenty loud, but not
                          overamplified. I keep referring to this with our "world" music group,
                          trying to persuade them to make room for a "real" piano in their setup
                          and not depending on the electronic keyboard except maybe for special
                          effects - believe it or not, with two grand pianos (one a 7' Yamaha),
                          they're still using a fake piano sound!

                          John



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Michael Thannisch
                          I ran into something similar with Nigerian congregations. Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@sbcglobal.net Pastor,
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 14, 2011
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                            I ran into something similar with Nigerian congregations.

                            Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                            http://patriotstatesman.com/
                            http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/
                            http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/
                            http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan Ave.
                            La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)
                            281-867-0335 (office)
                            832-266-8153 (mobile)
                            281-867-0576 (fax)


                            --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:

                            From: Frank Senn <fcsenn@...>
                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Pall symbolism
                            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 7:38 AM







                             









                            It's the same with the African congregation that meets in our church  building on Sunday afternoon.  Our nave has perfect acoustics for any musical performance.  A single violin or flute can fill the space with sound.  But as the Africans have inculturated into the American scene, they gave up their drums and acoustical instruments for amplified instruments set at high decibels.  I've even had neighbors complain about the "noise" when the windows are open in warm weather.  At times when I have dropped into their worship I have to stuff my ears. 



                            Frank C. Senn 



                            --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...> wrote:



                            From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>

                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Pall symbolism

                            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

                            Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 1:48 AM



                             



                            I agree.  I think removing the microphone would have really helped.  Many of us use microphones when we do not really need them.  Sadly in Latin America almost everyone uses a microphone with sound system set to #10 on the Richter scale. 



                            Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/



                            http://patriotstatesman.com/



                            http://laportemorganspointshoreacresnews.webs.com/



                            http://santoeastcemeteryassociation.webs.com/



                            http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan Ave.



                            La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081 (home)



                            281-867-0335 (office)



                            832-266-8153 (mobile)



                            281-867-0576 (fax)



                            --- On Sun, 2/13/11, James O'Regan <oregan@...> wrote:



                            From: James O'Regan <oregan@...>



                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Pall symbolism



                            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com



                            Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 3:52 PM



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                          • Dwight J. Penas
                            I suppose this is not a new question, but I don t seem able to access the archives to search, so perhaps someone can offer me a precis of older discussion. Our
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
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                              I suppose this is not a new question, but I don't seem able to access the archives to search, so perhaps someone can offer me a precis of older discussion.


                              Our congregation decided that for three months we would try praying Compline on Sunday evenings (8:30 p.m.). The reasons for that are irrelevant to my question, though perhaps not to my being bothered.


                              I wonder whether members of the list have experience with Compline as a congregational office? I confess to not liking it -- perhaps because I so appreciated it in monastic settings, when (as I recall from days of yore) it was the final office before the great silence. Compline, it seems to me is a bedtime office, and when it ends, it should be lights out. (I have found it most amenable to the end of a day of a retreat -- and other situations when the group is in fact on its way to bed.) In contrast, one (well, this one) finds if very difficult to leave a congregational office in silence and ignore the greetings of fellow members and friends. (In our case, the compline choir -- an outside group which is "resident" at Mount Olive for the three months -- stands as a group around the doors and thanks people for coming.)


                              I know that I have the option of just not going, but I'd like a better understanding of whether I'm just being me (I'm not as old as the Resident Old Curmudgeon, but I'm at least as as curmudgeonly) or whether there are better options. Our congregation tries to do things in a way that makes sense, and not just as performance settings for this or that group or event. So can someone enlighten me?


                              Peace
                              Dwight Penas
                              Minneapolis
                              ____________________________
                              He Who is above, now for our redemption dwells here below; and he that was lowly is by divine mercy raised. -- St. John Chrysostom










                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Jerry Kliner
                              Dwight, You are correct that the impulse for Compline is lights out and silence at the completion of the office.  At the Trappist/Cistercian New Melleray
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
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                                Dwight,

                                You are correct that the impulse for Compline is "lights out" and silence at the
                                completion of the office.  At the Trappist/Cistercian New Melleray Abbey near
                                Dubuque, IA, the monks exit the office in complete silence and turn the lights
                                off in the chapel when the last monk has exited.  Now, keep in mind this is
                                monastery where the rule of silence is kept anyway, but still the point is that
                                Compline is the last communal event of the day and at the completion of Compline
                                the day is truly over.  At the Benedictine Archabbey of Saint Meinrad in
                                Indiana, they don't offer a comunal office of compline, rather the monks told me
                                that they say the office individually in their cells just before retiring to
                                bed. 


                                While I was a student at Wartburg Seminary, we tried offering Compline at
                                10:00pm, when the Library closed, with the idea that this would be when students
                                would be heading back to their rooms for the evening, presumably to sleep... 
                                The rubric was that silence was kept following the end of the office and that
                                loitering outside of the chapel was discouraged.  Occassionally someone might
                                remain in the chapel for prayer, but for the most part people (the few that
                                attended) didn't linger at the end of the office.

                                Congregational life has different dynamics than either the monastery or the
                                seminary.  Most congregations I've experienced really wrestle with silence. 
                                Silence really un-nerves congregations because it is a literal experience with
                                powerlessness for most... people seem to want to fill the gaps with their
                                "stuff" rather than experience the quiet.  If you are part of an intentional
                                community (ie. someone who has committed themself to a community with distinct
                                values and a rule) the practice of silence can be cultivated and becomes not
                                merely a reality of powerlessness but also an act of choice.  But that requires
                                the willingness to repeatedly encounter the silence, to pattern oneself from the
                                community and a master, and to become a student.  Yes, you can find these
                                elements within a congregation, but it takes a lot of effort and persistence to
                                cultivate them.

                                When using Compline or a Vigil in my parish, I have had to be consistent about
                                laying out the values of keeping silence and have had to teach about the value
                                of these wonderful liturgies.  (We used Compline in Advent for a while...  But
                                it didn't work out so well trying to have a later service time than other
                                seasons like Lent where we have a "standard" 7pm service time.)  The values of
                                departing in silence, "un-plugging" for the day, and rest are sorely needed in
                                our contemporary culture, but they must be carefully and consistently taught and
                                with the realization that it is an "uphill" battle.

                                Pax Christi;
                                Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Douglas Cowling
                                On 2/15/11 12:26 PM, Dwight J. Penas wrote: I wonder whether members of the list have experience with Compline as a congregational office?
                                Message 15 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
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                                  On 2/15/11 12:26 PM, "Dwight J. Penas" <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:

                                  I wonder whether members of the list have experience with Compline as a
                                  congregational office?


                                  I always offer it as an end-of-the day option when I organize the music for
                                  residential conferences, and it one of the few times when lay people can
                                  experience the office as a community liturgy. No organ or instrumental
                                  accompaniment, just voices.

                                  I have the modern language Compline arranged to the traditional chant if
                                  you'd like a copy.

                                  Doug Cowling
                                  Director of Music
                                  St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                  Toronto
                                • Krister Ulmanis
                                  ... Doug, I would like a copy of the Compline you have. Krister Ulmanis
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
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                                    > I have the modern language Compline arranged to the traditional
                                    > chant if
                                    > you'd like a copy.
                                    >
                                    > Doug Cowling
                                    > Director of Music
                                    > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                    > Toronto

                                    Doug,
                                    I would like a copy of the Compline you have.
                                    Krister Ulmanis
                                  • Frank Senn
                                    Dwight, We have been singing/praying Compline on Sunday night at 8:30 p.m. for ten years.  A small  but dedicated core of members attend and on occasion we
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Feb 15, 2011
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                                      Dwight,

                                      We have been singing/praying Compline on Sunday night at 8:30 p.m. for ten years.  A small  but dedicated core of members attend and on occasion we have a visitor or two, or a member of the congregation who doesn't attend it regularly.  We sing the LBW setting without accompaniment. and without fanfare and without additions or subtractions.  The office takes about 20 minutes with appropriate times for silence. Lights are dimmed, altar candles only are lighted.  I wear cassock, surplice, and tippett and sit in a side stall close to the worshipers.  No sermon/homily. No offering.  No instrumental music.  I don't greet people afterward unless I spot a visitor.  Sometimes a few people linger to exchange quiet conversation. Most of the time people just leave quietly. I can't vouch for everyone, but after a full Sunday schedule I go home to quiet reading and bed.

                                      People like Compline because, of all the monastic and monasticized offices, it still retains the "cathedral" character of the sanctification of time.

                                      Frank C. Senn

                                      --- On Tue, 2/15/11, Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...> wrote:

                                      From: Dwight J. Penas <DJP4LAW@...>
                                      Subject: [liturgy-l] Compline
                                      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 11:26 AM







                                       









                                      I suppose this is not a new question, but I don't seem able to access the archives to search, so perhaps someone can offer me a precis of older discussion.



                                      Our congregation decided that for three months we would try praying Compline on Sunday evenings (8:30 p.m.). The reasons for that are irrelevant to my question, though perhaps not to my being bothered.



                                      I wonder whether members of the list have experience with Compline as a congregational office? I confess to not liking it -- perhaps because I so appreciated it in monastic settings, when (as I recall from days of yore) it was the final office before the great silence. Compline, it seems to me is a bedtime office, and when it ends, it should be lights out. (I have found it most amenable to the end of a day of a retreat -- and other situations when the group is in fact on its way to bed.) In contrast, one (well, this one) finds if very difficult to leave a congregational office in silence and ignore the greetings of fellow members and friends. (In our case, the compline choir -- an outside group which is "resident" at Mount Olive for the three months -- stands as a group around the doors and thanks people for coming.)



                                      I know that I have the option of just not going, but I'd like a better understanding of whether I'm just being me (I'm not as old as the Resident Old Curmudgeon, but I'm at least as as curmudgeonly) or whether there are better options. Our congregation tries to do things in a way that makes sense, and not just as performance settings for this or that group or event. So can someone enlighten me?



                                      Peace

                                      Dwight Penas

                                      Minneapolis

                                      ____________________________

                                      He Who is above, now for our redemption dwells here below; and he that was lowly is by divine mercy raised. -- St. John Chrysostom



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






















                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • felix4badu
                                      We currently use Compline as a congregational office on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of Holy Week, using the Gospel assigned for that day as the reading (I
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Feb 16, 2011
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                                        We currently use Compline as a congregational office on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of Holy Week, using the Gospel assigned for that day as the reading (I shorten the reading to be in line with the spirit of Compline). We arrange the chairs in the sanctuary in choir formation and do not have accompaniment, even for the Night Hymn and the Seasonal Hymn. We use the ELW setting (with the "alternate" [and more correct] position for the Gospel Canticle). Like Frank says, it takes about 20 minutes, and those who attend appreciate this way of making Holy Week even more solemn. This has also been helpful for our catechumens and affirmers as they prepare for Baptism/Affirmation of Baptism at the Vigil.

                                        Peace,
                                        Kyle Schiefelbein
                                        Berkeley/San Francisco


                                        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dwight,
                                        >
                                        > We have been singing/praying Compline on Sunday night at 8:30 p.m. for ten years.  A small  but dedicated core of members attend and on occasion we have a visitor or two, or a member of the congregation who doesn't attend it regularly.  We sing the LBW setting without accompaniment. and without fanfare and without additions or subtractions.  The office takes about 20 minutes with appropriate times for silence. Lights are dimmed, altar candles only are lighted.  I wear cassock, surplice, and tippett and sit in a side stall close to the worshipers.  No sermon/homily. No offering.  No instrumental music.  I don't greet people afterward unless I spot a visitor.  Sometimes a few people linger to exchange quiet conversation. Most of the time people just leave quietly. I can't vouch for everyone, but after a full Sunday schedule I go home to quiet reading and bed.
                                        >
                                        > People like Compline because, of all the monastic and monasticized offices, it still retains the "cathedral" character of the sanctification of time.
                                        >
                                        > Frank C. Senn
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Frank Senn
                                        Of course, your people also need to experience Compline throughout the year so they don t think of it only as a Holy Week office.  This was a concern I had
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Feb 16, 2011
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                                          Of course, your people also need to experience Compline throughout the year so they don't think of it only as a Holy Week office.  This was a concern I had about using Vespers primarily as a midweek office during Lent.  Would people experience Vespers only as a Lenten service?  I have intentionally scheduled Vespers at other times during the year, and particularly on the Eves of great feasts like Epiphany and Ascension.  I recognize the difficulty of making the daily prayer of the church truly daily in our current parochial circumstances.

                                          Frank C. Senn

                                          --- On Wed, 2/16/11, felix4badu <kschiefelbein@...> wrote:

                                          From: felix4badu <kschiefelbein@...>
                                          Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: Compline
                                          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 10:26 AM







                                           













                                          We currently use Compline as a congregational office on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of Holy Week, using the Gospel assigned for that day as the reading (I shorten the reading to be in line with the spirit of Compline). We arrange the chairs in the sanctuary in choir formation and do not have accompaniment, even for the Night Hymn and the Seasonal Hymn. We use the ELW setting (with the "alternate" [and more correct] position for the Gospel Canticle). Like Frank says, it takes about 20 minutes, and those who attend appreciate this way of making Holy Week even more solemn. This has also been helpful for our catechumens and affirmers as they prepare for Baptism/Affirmation of Baptism at the Vigil.



                                          Peace,

                                          Kyle Schiefelbein

                                          Berkeley/San Francisco



                                          --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:

                                          >

                                          > Dwight,

                                          >

                                          > We have been singing/praying Compline on Sunday night at 8:30 p.m. for ten years.  A small  but dedicated core of members attend and on occasion we have a visitor or two, or a member of the congregation who doesn't attend it regularly.  We sing the LBW setting without accompaniment. and without fanfare and without additions or subtractions.  The office takes about 20 minutes with appropriate times for silence. Lights are dimmed, altar candles only are lighted.  I wear cassock, surplice, and tippett and sit in a side stall close to the worshipers.  No sermon/homily. No offering.  No instrumental music.  I don't greet people afterward unless I spot a visitor.  Sometimes a few people linger to exchange quiet conversation. Most of the time people just leave quietly. I can't vouch for everyone, but after a full Sunday schedule I go home to quiet reading and bed.

                                          >

                                          > People like Compline because, of all the monastic and monasticized offices, it still retains the "cathedral" character of the sanctification of time.

                                          >

                                          > Frank C. Senn

                                          >

                                          >






















                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • rdrjames
                                          I understand the desire to incorporate a kind of monastic spirituality into parish life. I think this input is valuable, but speaking as a conservative
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Feb 16, 2011
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                                            I understand the desire to incorporate a kind of 'monastic spirituality' into parish life. I think this input is valuable, but speaking as a conservative (former Anglican, now Orthodox) Christian, I wonder if this really 'works' when done only on an occasional basis.
                                            Originally the western monastic Compline as found in the old Monastic Diurnal was probably memorized and done practically in the dark. The office is always the same, except in the latter part of Holy Week when the Nunc Dimittis and its antiphon is added.
                                            It could well be used as a bedtime prayer, memorized, by any Christian.
                                            The final antiphon to the Blessed Virgin does not have to be said, and is probably an addition, Cistercian?
                                            Frank, I think, has the right idea, to serve this office throughout the year.
                                            Just a thought, let me know what you think.

                                            Rdr. James Morgan



                                            --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Of course, your people also need to experience Compline throughout the year so they don't think of it only as a Holy Week office.  This was a concern I had about using Vespers primarily as a midweek office during Lent.  Would people experience Vespers only as a Lenten service?  I have intentionally scheduled Vespers at other times during the year, and particularly on the Eves of great feasts like Epiphany and Ascension.  I recognize the difficulty of making the daily prayer of the church truly daily in our current parochial circumstances.
                                            >
                                            > Frank C. Senn
                                            >
                                          • Father Robert Lyons
                                            Here, I basically use the form that New Melleray Abbey in Peosta, Iowa has on their website, with three basic changes: 1) The addition of a fixed reading after
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Feb 17, 2011
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                                              Here, I basically use the form that New Melleray Abbey in Peosta, Iowa has
                                              on their website, with three basic changes:

                                              1) The addition of a fixed reading after the second psalm and before the
                                              responsory.

                                              2) The responsory is modified to read:

                                              Into your hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit.
                                              For it is you who will redeem me, O Lord my God.

                                              3) We omit the Marian Antiphon, and modify the final two versicles

                                              May God's help be with us always.
                                              And with our brothers and sisters, both near and far away.

                                              May the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercies of God, rest in
                                              peace.
                                              Amen.

                                              We offer it nightly at home, and are planning to start offering it at the
                                              conclusion of all evening meetings in the parish.

                                              Rob+

                                              --
                                              Father Robert Lyons
                                              Bargersville, IN
                                              *www.saintbonifaceonline.org* <http://www.saintbonifaceonline.org/>
                                              * * *
                                              "Too many people try to conform the Christian message to themselves instead
                                              of embracing the Christian message and letting it conform them to Christ."


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Sean W. Reed
                                              While I am not sure I follow the necessity for all the tinkering with Compline, we have a number of us in our parish who pray from the Breviary daily, and if
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Feb 17, 2011
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                                                While I am not sure I follow the necessity for all the tinkering with Compline, we have a number of us in our parish who pray from the Breviary daily, and if we are at Church in the evening, will pray together. Frank's concern is spot on about being careful to not give the idea Compline is just a "Holy Week" activity.

                                                Whether from Breviarium Romanum in Latin, or the Anglican Breviary in English, the Office is the same, and we always find a number of others that don't regularly pray from the Breviary to join in. Both of these Breviaries are secular, and I personally much prefer this scheme of the psalterover the Monastic, and not having the same psalms for Compline each day.

                                                The Marian Antiphon has been an integral part of the Office for centuries, and since Blessed John XIII, the benefits granted by the recitation of the prayer Sacrosancte, has been added to the final Antiphon of the BVM. Why would one leave it out?


                                                SWR

                                                Father Robert Lyons <fatherroblyons@...> wrote:

                                                >Here, I basically use the form that New Melleray Abbey in Peosta, Iowa has
                                                >on their website, with three basic changes:
                                                >
                                                >1) The addition of a fixed reading after the second psalm and before the
                                                >responsory.
                                                >
                                                >2) The responsory is modified to read:
                                                >
                                                >Into your hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit.
                                                >For it is you who will redeem me, O Lord my God.
                                                >
                                                >3) We omit the Marian Antiphon, and modify the final two versicles
                                                >
                                                >May God's help be with us always.
                                                >And with our brothers and sisters, both near and far away.
                                                >
                                                >May the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercies of God, rest in
                                                >peace.
                                                >Amen.
                                                >
                                                >We offer it nightly at home, and are planning to start offering it at the
                                                >conclusion of all evening meetings in the parish.
                                                >
                                                >Rob+
                                                >
                                                >--
                                                >Father Robert Lyons
                                                >Bargersville, IN
                                                >*www.saintbonifaceonline.org* <http://www.saintbonifaceonline.org/>
                                                >* * *
                                                >"Too many people try to conform the Christian message to themselves instead
                                                >of embracing the Christian message and letting it conform them to Christ."
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                              • Father Rob
                                                ... There are various reasons... some of them theological, some of them practical. The first time I heard the New Melleray compline, I fell immediately in love
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Feb 18, 2011
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                                                  --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Sean W. Reed" <skreed1@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > While I am not sure I follow the necessity for all the tinkering with Compline,

                                                  There are various reasons... some of them theological, some of them practical.

                                                  The first time I heard the New Melleray compline, I fell immediately in love with it. When I introduced other parishoners to it, wherever I have served, they have loved it as well. In my current parish, we are putting together our own breviary, so we elected to make a few slight modifications to the order.


                                                  > Whether from Breviarium Romanum in Latin, or the Anglican Breviary in English... Both of these Breviaries are secular, and I personally much prefer this scheme of the psalterover the Monastic, and not having the same psalms for Compline each day.
                                                  >

                                                  Here we have a two week psalter cycle, and the value of memorizing the ordo for Compline so I can be sung anywhere is above measure for us.

                                                  > The Marian Antiphon has been an integral part of the Office for centuries, and since Blessed John XIII, the benefits granted by the recitation of the prayer Sacrosancte, has been added to the final Antiphon of the BVM. Why would one leave it out?

                                                  When one finds the theology (or, in this case, Mariology) objectionable, one omits ;)

                                                  Rob+

                                                  Father Robert Lyons
                                                  Bargersville, IN
                                                  *www.saintbonifaceonline.org
                                                • felix4badu
                                                  Frank, I understand your concern. We tend to reserve Vespers for Advent and Lent as well. My goal is to offer the prayer offices throughout the year, but
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Feb 18, 2011
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                                                    Frank,

                                                    I understand your concern. We tend to reserve Vespers for Advent and Lent as well. My goal is to offer the prayer offices throughout the year, but circumstance has not allowed that yet (the problem with being in a west-coast urban congregation with many commuters). You do note some good suggestions about using the Eves of festivals as a time for Vespers.

                                                    Peace,
                                                    Kyle Schiefelbein

                                                    --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Of course, your people also need to experience Compline throughout the year so they don't think of it only as a Holy Week office.  This was a concern I had about using Vespers primarily as a midweek office during Lent.  Would people experience Vespers only as a Lenten service?  I have intentionally scheduled Vespers at other times during the year, and particularly on the Eves of great feasts like Epiphany and Ascension.  I recognize the difficulty of making the daily prayer of the church truly daily in our current parochial circumstances.
                                                    >
                                                    > Frank C. Senn
                                                    >
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