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Re: [liturgy-l] Pallium Protocol

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  • dlewisaao@aol.com
    No, this is not the retired Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Mexico and subsequently Assisting/ant Bishop of Los Angeles (who did indeed use Carranza when
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 7, 2010
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      No, this is not the retired Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Mexico and
      subsequently Assisting/ant Bishop of Los Angeles (who did indeed use
      Carranza when both surnames were not used) but the Roman Catholic Archbishop
      Coadjutor of Los Angeles.

      David


      In a message dated 4/7/2010 6:24:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      mlfm1943@... writes:

      OK, I am confused. Is this Sergio Carranza Gomez that has been
      coadjutor for Los Angeles? If so, according to Hispanic custom
      (not Brasilian custom) shouldn't he be addressed by Carranza (his
      father's name) rather than Gomez (his mother's name)???

      Peggy Metcalf
      Episcopal Diocese of Texas





      ________________________________
      From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
      To: Liturgy-Well-Done <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 3:59:35 PM
      Subject: [liturgy-l] Pallium Protocol


      Now that Archbishop Gomez has been named coadjutor in Los Angeles, does he
      now cease to wear the pallium until he is invested with it after assuming
      jurisdiction? What title does he take now that he does not have
      metrpolitical jurisdiction?

      I was surprised to read that he will have a Mass of Welcome when he goes to
      Los Angeles but that he will not be "inaugurated" as the new LA archbishop
      when Mahoney retires. Surely he would have a a rite of possession and be
      formally seated in his new cathedra.

      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
      Toronto




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Scott Knitter
      First name is Jose. ... From: Margaret metcalf Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 5:24 PM To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re:
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 7, 2010
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        First name is Jose.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Margaret metcalf <mlfm1943@...>
        Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 5:24 PM
        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pallium Protocol

        OK, I am confused. Is this Sergio Carranza Gomez that has been
        coadjutor for Los Angeles? If so, according to Hispanic custom
        (not Brasilian custom) shouldn't he be addressed by Carranza (his
        father's name) rather than Gomez (his mother's name)???

        Peggy Metcalf
        Episcopal Diocese of Texas





        ________________________________
        From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
        To: Liturgy-Well-Done <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 3:59:35 PM
        Subject: [liturgy-l] Pallium Protocol


        Now that Archbishop Gomez has been named coadjutor in Los Angeles, does he
        now cease to wear the pallium until he is invested with it after assuming
        jurisdiction? What title does he take now that he does not have
        metrpolitical jurisdiction?

        I was surprised to read that he will have a Mass of Welcome when he goes to
        Los Angeles but that he will not be "inaugurated" as the new LA archbishop
        when Mahoney retires. Surely he would have a a rite of possession and be
        formally seated in his new cathedra.

        Doug Cowling
        Director of Music
        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        Toronto




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

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      • Lewis Whitaker
        In order to stress the jurisdictional nature of the pallium rather than any personal honour that may be assumed by an individual prelate, as early as the
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 7, 2010
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          "In order to stress the jurisdictional nature of the pallium rather than any
          personal honour that may be assumed by an individual prelate, as early as
          the eleventh century it became the practice of the Church to require a
          transferred archbishop (one who already holds a pallium from his previous
          see) to request, within three months of his transfer, a pallium that is tied
          to the new jurisdiction. Thus it is not uncommon for prelates to have tow,
          perhaps three, pallia in their lifetime."

          At a prelate's death, the extra pallia can be placed under pillows of the
          deceased metropolitan and interred with him, as the jurisdiction of this
          prelate ceased at his death.

          From James-Charles Noonan Jr.'s _The Church Visible: The Ceremonial Life and
          Protocol of the Roman Catholic Church_

          Lew


          On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Douglas Cowling
          <cowling.douglas@...>wrote:

          > Now that Archbishop Gomez has been named coadjutor in Los Angeles, does he
          > now cease to wear the pallium until he is invested with it after assuming
          > jurisdiction? What title does he take now that he does not have
          > metrpolitical jurisdiction?
          >
          > I was surprised to read that he will have a Mass of Welcome when he goes
          > to
          > Los Angeles but that he will not be "inaugurated" as the new LA archbishop
          > when Mahoney retires. Surely he would have a a rite of possession and be
          > formally seated in his new cathedra.
          >
          > Doug Cowling
          > Director of Music
          > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
          > Toronto
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
          > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dlewisaao@aol.com
          That s right - Abp Gomez already has a pallium per being Abp of San Antonio. Would he receive his new pallium before or after actually assuming his new
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 7, 2010
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            That's right - Abp Gomez already has a pallium per being Abp of San
            Antonio.

            Would he receive his new pallium before or after actually assuming his new
            metropolitan jurisdiction?

            David


            In a message dated 4/7/2010 8:30:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
            lhwhitaker@... writes:

            "In order to stress the jurisdictional nature of the pallium rather than
            any
            personal honour that may be assumed by an individual prelate, as early as
            the eleventh century it became the practice of the Church to require a
            transferred archbishop (one who already holds a pallium from his previous
            see) to request, within three months of his transfer, a pallium that is
            tied
            to the new jurisdiction. Thus it is not uncommon for prelates to have tow,
            perhaps three, pallia in their lifetime."

            At a prelate's death, the extra pallia can be placed under pillows of the
            deceased metropolitan and interred with him, as the jurisdiction of this
            prelate ceased at his death.

            From James-Charles Noonan Jr.'s _The Church Visible: The Ceremonial Life
            and
            Protocol of the Roman Catholic Church_

            Lew


            On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Douglas Cowling
            <cowling.douglas@...>wrote:

            > Now that Archbishop Gomez has been named coadjutor in Los Angeles, does
            he
            > now cease to wear the pallium until he is invested with it after assuming
            > jurisdiction? What title does he take now that he does not have
            > metrpolitical jurisdiction?
            >
            > I was surprised to read that he will have a Mass of Welcome when he goes
            > to
            > Los Angeles but that he will not be "inaugurated" as the new LA
            archbishop
            > when Mahoney retires. Surely he would have a a rite of possession and be
            > formally seated in his new cathedra.
            >
            > Doug Cowling
            > Director of Music
            > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
            > Toronto
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            To write to the moderators, please email:
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lewis Whitaker
            I would assume within three months of being installed in Los Angeles... but I m not sure. Lew ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 7, 2010
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              I would assume "within three months" of being installed in Los Angeles...
              but I'm not sure.

              Lew


              On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 8:53 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

              > That's right - Abp Gomez already has a pallium per being Abp of San
              > Antonio.
              >
              > Would he receive his new pallium before or after actually assuming his new
              > metropolitan jurisdiction?
              >
              > David
              >
              >
              > In a message dated 4/7/2010 8:30:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              > lhwhitaker@... writes:
              >
              > "In order to stress the jurisdictional nature of the pallium rather than
              > any
              > personal honour that may be assumed by an individual prelate, as early as
              > the eleventh century it became the practice of the Church to require a
              > transferred archbishop (one who already holds a pallium from his previous
              > see) to request, within three months of his transfer, a pallium that is
              > tied
              > to the new jurisdiction. Thus it is not uncommon for prelates to have tow,
              > perhaps three, pallia in their lifetime."
              >
              > At a prelate's death, the extra pallia can be placed under pillows of the
              > deceased metropolitan and interred with him, as the jurisdiction of this
              > prelate ceased at his death.
              >
              > From James-Charles Noonan Jr.'s _The Church Visible: The Ceremonial Life
              > and
              > Protocol of the Roman Catholic Church_
              >
              > Lew
              >
              >
              > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Douglas Cowling
              > <cowling.douglas@...>wrote:
              >
              > > Now that Archbishop Gomez has been named coadjutor in Los Angeles, does
              > he
              > > now cease to wear the pallium until he is invested with it after
              > assuming
              > > jurisdiction? What title does he take now that he does not have
              > > metrpolitical jurisdiction?
              > >
              > > I was surprised to read that he will have a Mass of Welcome when he
              > goes
              > > to
              > > Los Angeles but that he will not be "inaugurated" as the new LA
              > archbishop
              > > when Mahoney retires. Surely he would have a a rite of possession and be
              > > formally seated in his new cathedra.
              > >
              > > Doug Cowling
              > > Director of Music
              > > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
              > > Toronto
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,
              > please email:
              > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
              > To write to the moderators, please email:
              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sandford MacLean
              From The Ceremonial of Bishops: Chapter 5: Investiture with the Pallium 1149. Whenever possible, the investiture with the pallium should take place within
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 7, 2010
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                From The Ceremonial of Bishops:

                Chapter 5: "Investiture with the Pallium" 1149. "Whenever possible, the investiture with the pallium should take place within the rite of ordination... When the investiture cannot take place within the rite of ordination, it may be carried out in conjunction with the bishop's reception into his cathedral church. The investiture takes place within the celebration of the eucharist, either in the bishop's cathedral or in another suitable church of his diocese, and is carried out by a bishop appointed for this by the Apostolic See, who uses the rite described in this chapter."

                The investiture takes after the reading of the apostolic mandate, or after the opening words of the presiding bishop. The bishop-elect makes a profession of faith and takes the oath. When he is invested with the pallium, the presiding bishop uses the following words:

                "To the glory of almighty God
                and the praise of the Blessed Virgin Mary
                and of the apostles Peter and Paul,
                in the name of Pope N., Bishop of Rome,
                and of the holy Roman Church,
                for the honor of the Church of N.,
                which has been placed in your care,
                and as a symbol of your authority as metropolitan archbishop:
                we confer on you the pallium, taken from the tomb of Peter
                to wear within the limits of your ecclesiastical province.

                May this pallium be a symbol of unity
                and a sign of your communion with the Apostolic See,
                a bond of love, and an incentive to courage.
                On the day of the coming and manifestation
                of our great God and chief shepherd, Jesus Christ,
                may you and the flock entrusted to you
                be clothed with immortality and glory.
                In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
                R. Amen.

                Oh, and "Unless he is held back by a legitimate impediment, a person promoted to the office of diocesan bishop must take canonical possession of his diocese within four months from the reception of the apostolic letter if he has not yet been ordained a bishop, or within two months if he has already been ordained. ...If the bishop-elect has been transferred from another Church, or if he has not received ordination in his own cathedral church, he takes possession of the diocese in accord with the provisions of law, as stipulated in the rite of reception, to be described in nos. 1141-1144. In such cases, the bishop-elect may take possession of the diocese by proxy, but is preferable that he do so un person."

                In Christ,
                Sandford MacLean


                From: Lewis Whitaker
                Sent: Wednesday, 07 April, 2010 20:58
                To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pallium Protocol



                I would assume "within three months" of being installed in Los Angeles...
                but I'm not sure.

                Lew

                On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 8:53 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                > That's right - Abp Gomez already has a pallium per being Abp of San
                > Antonio.
                >
                > Would he receive his new pallium before or after actually assuming his new
                > metropolitan jurisdiction?
                >
                > David
                >
                >
                > In a message dated 4/7/2010 8:30:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                > lhwhitaker@... writes:
                >
                > "In order to stress the jurisdictional nature of the pallium rather than
                > any
                > personal honour that may be assumed by an individual prelate, as early as
                > the eleventh century it became the practice of the Church to require a
                > transferred archbishop (one who already holds a pallium from his previous
                > see) to request, within three months of his transfer, a pallium that is
                > tied
                > to the new jurisdiction. Thus it is not uncommon for prelates to have tow,
                > perhaps three, pallia in their lifetime."
                >
                > At a prelate's death, the extra pallia can be placed under pillows of the
                > deceased metropolitan and interred with him, as the jurisdiction of this
                > prelate ceased at his death.
                >
                > From James-Charles Noonan Jr.'s _The Church Visible: The Ceremonial Life
                > and
                > Protocol of the Roman Catholic Church_
                >
                > Lew
                >
                >
                > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Douglas Cowling
                > <cowling.douglas@...>wrote:
                >
                > > Now that Archbishop Gomez has been named coadjutor in Los Angeles, does
                > he
                > > now cease to wear the pallium until he is invested with it after
                > assuming
                > > jurisdiction? What title does he take now that he does not have
                > > metrpolitical jurisdiction?
                > >
                > > I was surprised to read that he will have a Mass of Welcome when he
                > goes
                > > to
                > > Los Angeles but that he will not be "inaugurated" as the new LA
                > archbishop
                > > when Mahoney retires. Surely he would have a a rite of possession and be
                > > formally seated in his new cathedra.
                > >
                > > Doug Cowling
                > > Director of Music
                > > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                > > Toronto
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators,
                > please email:
                > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                > To write to the moderators, please email:
                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Douglas Cowling
                ... Do auxiliary and coadjutor bishops still receive a titiular see, usually a defunct diocese in the North African desert? If so, what title does Archbishop
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 7, 2010
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                  On 4/7/10 8:30 PM, "Lewis Whitaker" <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

                  > "In order to stress the jurisdictional nature of the pallium rather than any
                  > personal honour that may be assumed by an individual prelate, as early as
                  > the eleventh century it became the practice of the Church to require a
                  > transferred archbishop (one who already holds a pallium from his previous
                  > see) to request, within three months of his transfer, a pallium that is tied
                  > to the new jurisdiction. Thus it is not uncommon for prelates to have tow,
                  > perhaps three, pallia in their lifetime."

                  Do auxiliary and coadjutor bishops still receive a titiular see, usually a
                  defunct diocese in the North African desert? If so, what title does
                  Archbishop Gomez hold from the time of his resignation from San Antonio
                  until he succeeds in LA? Or is Archbishop Emeritus acceptable? In the old
                  days, every bishop, even curial prelates, had to have a diocesan title to
                  exercise episcopal ministry. I'm still puzzled by the announcement that
                  there will not be a mass of inauguration when he succeeds.


                  Doug Cowling
                  Director of Music
                  St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                  Toronto
                • Lewis Whitaker
                  Good question. Perhaps he ll be the Archbishop of West Hollywood... On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Douglas Cowling ... [Non-text portions of this message
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 7, 2010
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                    Good question. Perhaps he'll be the Archbishop of West Hollywood...

                    On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Douglas Cowling
                    <cowling.douglas@...>wrote:

                    > On 4/7/10 8:30 PM, "Lewis Whitaker" <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > "In order to stress the jurisdictional nature of the pallium rather than
                    > any
                    > > personal honour that may be assumed by an individual prelate, as early as
                    > > the eleventh century it became the practice of the Church to require a
                    > > transferred archbishop (one who already holds a pallium from his previous
                    > > see) to request, within three months of his transfer, a pallium that is
                    > tied
                    > > to the new jurisdiction. Thus it is not uncommon for prelates to have
                    > tow,
                    > > perhaps three, pallia in their lifetime."
                    >
                    > Do auxiliary and coadjutor bishops still receive a titiular see, usually a
                    > defunct diocese in the North African desert? If so, what title does
                    > Archbishop Gomez hold from the time of his resignation from San Antonio
                    > until he succeeds in LA? Or is Archbishop Emeritus acceptable? In the old
                    > days, every bishop, even curial prelates, had to have a diocesan title to
                    > exercise episcopal ministry. I'm still puzzled by the announcement that
                    > there will not be a mass of inauguration when he succeeds.
                    >
                    >
                    > Doug Cowling
                    > Director of Music
                    > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                    > Toronto
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                    > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lewis Whitaker
                    They ve updated the website to a Mass of Reception, which may be just semantics. I ve never heard of such, but, like you, I d tend to think there would be
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 7, 2010
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                      They've updated the website to a "Mass of Reception," which may be just
                      semantics. I've never heard of such, but, like you, I'd tend to think there
                      would be something ceremonial for when he officially takes over.

                      L

                      On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Douglas Cowling
                      <cowling.douglas@...>wrote:

                      > Now that Archbishop Gomez has been named coadjutor in Los Angeles, does he
                      > now cease to wear the pallium until he is invested with it after assuming
                      > jurisdiction? What title does he take now that he does not have
                      > metrpolitical jurisdiction?
                      >
                      > I was surprised to read that he will have a Mass of Welcome when he goes
                      > to
                      > Los Angeles but that he will not be "inaugurated" as the new LA archbishop
                      > when Mahoney retires. Surely he would have a a rite of possession and be
                      > formally seated in his new cathedra.
                      >
                      > Doug Cowling
                      > Director of Music
                      > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                      > Toronto
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                      > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Chris McConnell
                      ... Yes, they do, although the defunct diocese isn t always North African. A previous administrator of the Ukrainian Catholic eparchy here was the titular
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 8, 2010
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                        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                        > Do auxiliary and coadjutor bishops still receive a titiular see, usually a
                        > defunct diocese in the North African desert?

                        Yes, they do, although the defunct diocese isn't always North African. A previous administrator of the Ukrainian Catholic eparchy here was the titular bishop of Nyssa, which I think is about the coolest defunct see one could get. :)

                        Then there's Jacques Gaillot (sadly in the news again recently), who was removed from his actual, real-life see and assigned instead to the titular (defunct North African) see of Partenia. He went and took his "diocese" to the internet, and www.partenia.org is still there.

                        Chris
                      • Lewis Whitaker
                        At one time coadjutor bishops and archbishops were given titular sees — however now they are given title to the
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 8, 2010
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                          "At one time coadjutor <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coadjutor> bishops and
                          archbishops were given titular sees � however now they are given title to
                          the diocese or archdiocese that they will oversee as coadjutor. Retired
                          Bishops and Archbishops were also given titular sees, however the common
                          practice now is to name them Bishop or Archbishop
                          Emeritus<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emeritus>of the see they retired
                          from." -- from wikipedia

                          Lew


                          On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Chris McConnell <cdmcconnell@...>wrote:

                          > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > > Do auxiliary and coadjutor bishops still receive a titiular see, usually
                          > a
                          > > defunct diocese in the North African desert?
                          >
                          > Yes, they do, although the defunct diocese isn't always North African. A
                          > previous administrator of the Ukrainian Catholic eparchy here was the
                          > titular bishop of Nyssa, which I think is about the coolest defunct see one
                          > could get. :)
                          >
                          > Then there's Jacques Gaillot (sadly in the news again recently), who was
                          > removed from his actual, real-life see and assigned instead to the titular
                          > (defunct North African) see of Partenia. He went and took his "diocese" to
                          > the internet, and www.partenia.org is still there.
                          >
                          > Chris
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                          > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • skreed1@cox.net
                          Archbishop Fulton Sheen was of Newport (Wales.) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ... From: Chris McConnell Date: Thu, 08 Apr
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 8, 2010
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                            Archbishop Fulton Sheen was of Newport (Wales.)
                            Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: "Chris McConnell" <cdmcconnell@...>
                            Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:17:40
                            To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: Pallium Protocol

                            --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:

                            > Do auxiliary and coadjutor bishops still receive a titiular see, usually a
                            > defunct diocese in the North African desert?

                            Yes, they do, although the defunct diocese isn't always North African. A previous administrator of the Ukrainian Catholic eparchy here was the titular bishop of Nyssa, which I think is about the coolest defunct see one could get. :)

                            Then there's Jacques Gaillot (sadly in the news again recently), who was removed from his actual, real-life see and assigned instead to the titular (defunct North African) see of Partenia. He went and took his "diocese" to the internet, and www.partenia.org is still there.

                            Chris





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Douglas Cowling
                            ... Is this concern with sees titular and emeriti a theological tradition that the prelates must have an episcopal jurisdiction either real (titular) or
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 8, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On 4/8/10 9:26 AM, "Lewis Whitaker" <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

                              > "At one time coadjutor <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coadjutor> bishops and
                              > archbishops were given titular sees — however now they are given title to
                              > the diocese or archdiocese that they will oversee as coadjutor. Retired
                              > Bishops and Archbishops were also given titular sees, however the common
                              > practice now is to name them Bishop or Archbishop
                              > Emeritus<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emeritus>of the see they retired
                              > from." -- from wikipedia

                              Is this concern with sees titular and emeriti a theological tradition that
                              the prelates must have an episcopal jurisdiction either real (titular) or
                              derived (emeritus) to permit them to celebrate the sacraments as a bishop --
                              or even as a priest?

                              Thus, when Archbishop Gomez resigned from San Antonio, he became the
                              coadjutor, but juridically an auxilliary of the Archbishop of Los Angeles.
                              Otherwise he would be an episcopus vagrans and his sacramental ministry
                              invalid.

                              Doug Cowling
                              Director of Music
                              St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                              Toronto
                            • Michael Thannisch
                              Yes, and especially in the east you find Bishops consecrated to a particular place, and in the Assyrian church presbyters were ordained to a certain place
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 8, 2010
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                                Yes, and especially in the east you find Bishops consecrated to a particular place, and in the Assyrian church presbyters were ordained to a certain place as well, much as canon 9 priests and deacons in TEC


                                Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                                 
                                +Mar Michael Abportus
                                mjthannisch@...
                                Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                                http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                                http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868
                                204 Sylvan St.
                                La Porte, TX 77571
                                281-867-9081 (home)
                                281-867-0335 (office)
                                832-266-8153 (mobile)
                                281-867-0576 (fax)


                                --- On Thu, 4/8/10, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:


                                From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Pallium Protocol
                                To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 9:39 AM


                                 



                                On 4/8/10 9:26 AM, "Lewis Whitaker" <lhwhitaker@gmail. com> wrote:

                                > "At one time coadjutor <http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Coadjutor> bishops and
                                > archbishops were given titular sees — however now they are given title to
                                > the diocese or archdiocese that they will oversee as coadjutor. Retired
                                > Bishops and Archbishops were also given titular sees, however the common
                                > practice now is to name them Bishop or Archbishop
                                > Emeritus<http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Emeritus>of the see they retired
                                > from." -- from wikipedia

                                Is this concern with sees titular and emeriti a theological tradition that
                                the prelates must have an episcopal jurisdiction either real (titular) or
                                derived (emeritus) to permit them to celebrate the sacraments as a bishop --
                                or even as a priest?

                                Thus, when Archbishop Gomez resigned from San Antonio, he became the
                                coadjutor, but juridically an auxilliary of the Archbishop of Los Angeles.
                                Otherwise he would be an episcopus vagrans and his sacramental ministry
                                invalid.

                                Doug Cowling
                                Director of Music
                                St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                                Toronto








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