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Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations

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  • Lewis Whitaker
    How do you define questionable, Mar Michel Abportus? Lew On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Michael Thannisch
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 2, 2009
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      How do you define "questionable," Mar Michel Abportus?
      Lew


      On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...
      > wrote:

      > There is an "Orthodox" monastery here in Houston of questionable
      > provenance, although they do a good job helping the street people. Another
      > Monastery in Nebraska, which used to be in OK City, also questionable. Some
      > of you may get emails or brochures from them, Monastery Icons.
      >
      > Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach +Mar Michel Abportus
      > mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
      > http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
      > http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204
      > Sylvan St. La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081
      >
      > --- On Wed, 9/2/09, cantor03@... <cantor03@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: cantor03@... <cantor03@...>
      > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations
      > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 5:28 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 9/2/2009 16:00:55 Eastern Daylight
      > Time,
      >
      > rdrjames@comcast. net writes:
      >
      >
      >
      > Gets complicated. >>>>
      >
      >
      >
      > Anglicans don't have the corner on small splinter groups.
      >
      >
      >
      > Some years ago there was a period of publicity via the
      >
      > local newspapers and television stations about a small, actually
      >
      > two person, Orthodox Order in the village over the next mountain
      >
      > here in Pennsylvania at the edge of the Poconos.
      >
      >
      >
      > This Orthodox establishment/ church was in the spotlight
      >
      > because the neighbors were up in arms at cars of church
      >
      > goers clogging the streets in the neighborhood.
      >
      >
      >
      > The church was constructed out of what had been a rather
      >
      > spacious two car garage in an older neighborhood.
      >
      >
      >
      > It became apparent that one of the monks was a bishop,
      >
      > and the other a priest. An OCA deacon I know mentioned
      >
      > that the monks didn't belong to any Orthodox jurisdiction
      >
      > he could find, and appeared to be self-educated and self-
      >
      > ordained.
      >
      >
      >
      > A few weeks after the start of this parking scenario, it
      >
      > became apparent that the bishop had now become an
      >
      > archbishop --- at least that's the way he wished to be
      >
      > addressed.
      >
      >
      >
      > A compromise of sorts was reached regarding the parking
      >
      > situation, and, to my knowledge, they still are a going
      >
      > congregation.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > David Strang.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
      > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Thannisch
      They don t seem to be linked in any way to any of the Orthodox Jurisdictions. Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michel Abportus mjthannisch@sbcglobal.net
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 2, 2009
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        They don't seem to be linked in any way to any of the Orthodox Jurisdictions.

        Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michel Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/ http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan St. La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081

        --- On Wed, 9/2/09, Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...> wrote:

        From: Lewis Whitaker <lhwhitaker@...>
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations
        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 7:15 PM






         





        How do you define "questionable, " Mar Michel Abportus?

        Lew



        On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@ sbcglobal. net

        > wrote:



        > There is an "Orthodox" monastery here in Houston of questionable

        > provenance, although they do a good job helping the street people. Another

        > Monastery in Nebraska, which used to be in OK City, also questionable. Some

        > of you may get emails or brochures from them, Monastery Icons.

        >

        > Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach +Mar Michel Abportus

        > mjthannisch@ sbcglobal. net Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham

        > http://www.freewebs .com/childrenofa braham/

        > http://www.facebook .com/people/ Michael-Joe- Thannisch/ 1173094868 204

        > Sylvan St. La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081

        >

        > --- On Wed, 9/2/09, cantor03@aol. com <cantor03@aol. com> wrote:

        >

        > From: cantor03@aol. com <cantor03@aol. com>

        > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations

        > To: liturgy-l@yahoogrou ps.com

        > Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 5:28 PM

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        > In a message dated 9/2/2009 16:00:55 Eastern Daylight

        > Time,

        >

        > rdrjames@comcast. net writes:

        >

        >

        >

        > Gets complicated. >>>>

        >

        >

        >

        > Anglicans don't have the corner on small splinter groups.

        >

        >

        >

        > Some years ago there was a period of publicity via the

        >

        > local newspapers and television stations about a small, actually

        >

        > two person, Orthodox Order in the village over the next mountain

        >

        > here in Pennsylvania at the edge of the Poconos.

        >

        >

        >

        > This Orthodox establishment/ church was in the spotlight

        >

        > because the neighbors were up in arms at cars of church

        >

        > goers clogging the streets in the neighborhood.

        >

        >

        >

        > The church was constructed out of what had been a rather

        >

        > spacious two car garage in an older neighborhood.

        >

        >

        >

        > It became apparent that one of the monks was a bishop,

        >

        > and the other a priest. An OCA deacon I know mentioned

        >

        > that the monks didn't belong to any Orthodox jurisdiction

        >

        > he could find, and appeared to be self-educated and self-

        >

        > ordained.

        >

        >

        >

        > A few weeks after the start of this parking scenario, it

        >

        > became apparent that the bishop had now become an

        >

        > archbishop --- at least that's the way he wished to be

        >

        > addressed.

        >

        >

        >

        > A compromise of sorts was reached regarding the parking

        >

        > situation, and, to my knowledge, they still are a going

        >

        > congregation.

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        > David Strang.

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        >

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        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >

        >

        >

        > ------------ --------- --------- ------

        >

        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/liturgy- l/To write to the moderators, please email:

        > liturgy-l-owner@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links

        >

        >

        >

        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rhawkjmt@aol.com
        The Ukrainian monastery which was mentioned has no connections with any of the canonical jurisdictions; they claim orders from the Samo-svjatyj
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 2, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          The Ukrainian monastery which was mentioned has no connections with any of
          the canonical jurisdictions; they claim orders from the "Samo-svjatyj"
          (self-consecrated) Ukrainians of the 1920s.

          The other monastery mentioned as being in Nebraska is now located in
          California. They are the purveyors of "Monastery Icons," and they also have no
          connection with any canonical Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction.

          J. Michael Thompson
          Pittsburgh, PA


          In a message dated 9/2/2009 8:48:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          mjthannisch@... writes:




          They don't seem to be linked in any way to any of the Orthodox
          Jurisdictions.

          Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach +Mar Michel Abportus
          _mjthannisch@mjthanniscmjt_ (mailto:mjthannisch@...) Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
          _http://www.freewebshttp://www.freewhttp://_
          (http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/)
          _http://www.facebookhttp://www.fhttp://www.fhttp://wwwhttp://www_ (http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868)
          204 Sylvan St. La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081

          --- On Wed, 9/2/09, Lewis Whitaker <_lhwhitaker@..._
          (mailto:lhwhitaker@...) > wrote:

          From: Lewis Whitaker <_lhwhitaker@..._ (mailto:lhwhitaker@...) >
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations
          To: _liturgy-l@yahoogrouliturg_ (mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com)
          Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 7:15 PM



          How do you define "questionable, " Mar Michel Abportus?

          Lew

          On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@ sbcglobal.
          net

          > wrote:

          > There is an "Orthodox" monastery here in Houston of questionable

          > provenance, although they do a good job helping the street people.
          Another

          > Monastery in Nebraska, which used to be in OK City, also questionable.
          Some

          > of you may get emails or brochures from them, Monastery Icons.

          >

          > Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach +Mar Michel Abportus

          > mjthannisch@ sbcglobal. net Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham

          > _http://www.freewebs_ (http://www.freewebs/) .com/childrenofa braham/

          > _http://www.facebook_ (http://www.facebook/) .com/people/ Michael-Joe-
          Thannisch/ 1173094868 204

          > Sylvan St. La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081

          >

          > --- On Wed, 9/2/09, cantor03@aol. com <cantor03@aol. com> wrote:

          >

          > From: cantor03@aol. com <cantor03@aol. com>

          > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations

          > To: liturgy-l@yahoogrou ps.com

          > Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 5:28 PM

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > In a message dated 9/2/2009 16:00:55 Eastern Daylight

          > Time,

          >

          > rdrjames@comcast. net writes:

          >

          >

          >

          > Gets complicated. >>>>

          >

          >

          >

          > Anglicans don't have the corner on small splinter groups.

          >

          >

          >

          > Some years ago there was a period of publicity via the

          >

          > local newspapers and television stations about a small, actually

          >

          > two person, Orthodox Order in the village over the next mountain

          >

          > here in Pennsylvania at the edge of the Poconos.

          >

          >

          >

          > This Orthodox establishment/ church was in the spotlight

          >

          > because the neighbors were up in arms at cars of church

          >

          > goers clogging the streets in the neighborhood.

          >

          >

          >

          > The church was constructed out of what had been a rather

          >

          > spacious two car garage in an older neighborhood.

          >

          >

          >

          > It became apparent that one of the monks was a bishop,

          >

          > and the other a priest. An OCA deacon I know mentioned

          >

          > that the monks didn't belong to any Orthodox jurisdiction

          >

          > he could find, and appeared to be self-educated and self-

          >

          > ordained.

          >

          >

          >

          > A few weeks after the start of this parking scenario, it

          >

          > became apparent that the bishop had now become an

          >

          > archbishop --- at least that's the way he wished to be

          >

          > addressed.

          >

          >

          >

          > A compromise of sorts was reached regarding the parking

          >

          > situation, and, to my knowledge, they still are a going

          >

          > congregation.

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > David Strang.

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

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          >

          >

          >

          >

          >

          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          >

          >

          >

          > ------------ --------- --------- ------

          >

          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at _http://groups._ (http://groups./)
          yahoo.com/ group/liturgy- l/To write to the moderators, please email:

          > liturgy-l-owner@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links

          >

          >

          >

          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











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        • dlewisaao@aol.com
          There s at least one Western Rite Antiochian parish here in the DC area. David In a message dated 9/2/2009 7:51:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 2, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            There's at least one Western Rite Antiochian parish here in the DC area.

            David


            In a message dated 9/2/2009 7:51:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
            lhwhitaker@... writes:

            The only Orthodox jurisdictions in the US that allow the Western Rite are
            the Antiochians (centered, for the most part, around St. Mark's in Denver)
            and ROCOR. There aren't that many ROCOR WR parishes around, but it is
            allowed. Christminster used to be in New England, but they've decamped for
            Canada. http://www.christminster.org/
            Lew


            On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 10:02 AM, John Schultz <pukne@...> wrote:

            > Very informative post John. I do have a question: Where do Western rite
            > Orthodox Churches fit in this mix?
            >
            > Another John
            >
            > asteresplanetai wrote:
            > > +++
            > >
            > >> Tom Poelker wrote:
            > >
            > >> I have no idea, John Burnett, how many Orthodox jurisdictions might
            > >> exist in North America or how they relate to the various historic
            > >> patriarchates. Can you offer a simple outline?
            > >
            > >
            > > Hard to say. I've heard that there are 18 different organizations, but
            > > i don't know if that's accurate, having never seen a full list. I
            > > don't follow church politics very much, so here's what i *think* is
            > > the backstory and the present situation, which may help to understand
            > > the situation of these 18 or so, but it may need some correcting so
            > > don't take what i write as gospel truth:
            > >
            > > An early ecumenical council (I think it was Nicea but i might be
            > > wrong) assigned all "barbarian lands" to the jurisdiction of the
            > > Ecumenical Patriarch (i.e., Constantinople). This was, however, moot
            > > in the American case because Moscow sent the first missionaries to the
            > > Western Hemisphere in the late 1790's, and by the mid 1800's the
            > > mission church had grown sufficiently large to require its own bishop.
            > > At the time (and even now) Constaninople was/is hardly in any position
            > > to do the evangelizing that the council was contemplating when it
            > > assigned the "barbarian lands" to its jurisdiction, in any case. So,
            > > Moscow was the first to evangelize the western hemisphere, and hence
            > > the first bishops were under Moscow, even though by about 1900, one
            > > was an ethnic Arab and the vision had always been very much pan-
            > > ethnic. This "Russian" diocese was centered first in Sitka, but the
            > > center was later moved to Anchorage, Seattle, San Francisco, and
            > > finally New York. So in this way, the American church was established
            > > under Moscow's jurisdiction, and that's how it was until the 1920's.
            > > There was even one black priest and a hope of further evangelization
            > > among the African diaspora here. There was no other Orthodox church
            > > and there were no other bishops in America-- only this Russian
            > > "metropolia"-- until sometime after the Communist Revolution.
            > >
            > > The revolution rendered contact between the American metropolia and
            > > the mother church in Moscow tenuous at best, so in the 1920's (as i
            > > understand it) first the Serbs sent a bishop of their own, and then
            > > the Greeks, and then everybody started doing the same, so now we have
            > > multiple overlapping ethnic jurisdictions, a situation which is
            > > completely uncanonical and irregular and even heretical in some
            > > expressions (church as tied to tribe = "phyletism", condemned by
            > > ecumenical synod a couple centuries ago when the issue came up in
            > > eastern Europe).
            > >
            > > There is a desire on the part of probably most Americans to have one
            > > Orthodox church here, but there is some resistance on the part of the
            > > various mother churches (America is a great source of funding for
            > > some, and especially for the Ecumenical Patriarchate); and some
            > > hesitation about the idea here in America because some of the smaller,
            > > but more vigorous jurisdictions don't want to be "swallowed up" by the
            > > Greeks, who are huge but very "ethnic" and very "assimilated" in ways
            > > not thought to be at all attractive by others. Also there are a lot of
            > > administrative issues that have to be worked out. However, despite the
            > > hesitations, there is a general recognition that sooner or later,
            > > there *must* be one canonically regular Orthodox church.
            > >
            > > Since all the jurisdictions that were established since the 1920's
            > > aren't now just going to say, Ok, we're sorry, we were wrong to send
            > > our bishops into a pre-existing diocese, and then just hand over their
            > > keys (and title deeds) to that pre-existing diocese (i.e., to the
            > > Russian metropolia, now reincarnated as the autocephalous Orthodox
            > > Church in America), there's been a lot of denial on the part of the
            > > mother churches that there's any problem, until the laity (and some
            > > bishops) really started agitating for normalization some years ago.
            > > Matters have heated up in the past couple of decades, though, and
            > > finally a meeting of all the patriarchs was called in Chambesy just
            > > last June to address the situation. The consensus seems to be that its
            > > carefully worded statement basically said, No, you can't be
            > > autocephalous, but ok, go and organize yourselves in your various
            > > jurisdictions as one functioning committee, and let's see if you are
            > > *capable* of working together and of self-governance. Which is a good
            > > step. And there's a lot of work to do.
            > >
            > > Meanwhile:
            > >
            > > Greeks in the US are under the Patriarch of Constantinople-- not under
            > > the Archbishop of Athens / Church of Greece, even though most American
            > > Greeks are from Greece-- because of that ecumenical statute i
            > > mentioned earlier.
            > >
            > > Orthodox christians in the US who belong to the Russian tradition--
            > > many, in some cases a majority, of whom are not ethnic Russians, but
            > > converts to Orthodoxy who for one reason or another connected with the
            > > Russian tradition when they came in-- are under three jurisdictions:
            > >
            > > The Orthodox Church in America (OCA), which was granted autocephaly in
            > > 1970 by the patriarch of Moscow. This means it's on a level with all
            > > the other autocephalous churches, like Constantinople and Moscow, but
            > > the "Greek bloc" refuses to recognize it.
            > >
            > > The Moscow Patriarchate has a few parishes here. This was originally
            > > not to be, when it granted autocephaly to the OCA, but some Cold-War
            > > Era lawsuits kept a number of parishes out of the OCA. I don't know
            > > much about all of that, they weren't many, and eventually there would
            > > be only one "russian" jurisdiction anyway. It was some kind of
            > > "interim" situation.
            > >
            > > The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR), vehemently
            anti-
            > > Communist, which pulled away from the Moscow Patriarchate and from the
            > > OCA when the OCA recognized the legitimacy of Moscow in return for the
            > > Tomos of Autocephaly in 1970. However, now that there is no Soviet
            > > Union, it was recently re-united with the Moscow Patriarchate and is
            > > now included with those MP parishes. A healing process has ensued, but
            > > it will be a while before everything is completely ok, because there
            > > is a whole history of polemics and polemical attitudes which formed a
            > > good deal more of our self-identities than it should have, and it
            > > takes time to grow out of it.
            > >
            > > The Antiochian Orthodox Church is the Patriarchate of Antioch/Damascus/
            > > Syria. Ethnically, it's Arab-speaking, with a constituency of Arabs
            > > from Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. However, in the 1980s they were
            > > joined by the "Evangelical Orthodox Church" (EOC), a group that used
            > > to be part of Campus Crusade for Christ. At first they were known as
            > > the Evangelical Orthodox Mission (EOM), then as the Antiochian
            > > Evangelical Orthodox Mission (AEOM), and now have been completely
            > > integrated into the Antiochian metropolitanate, so they're just the
            AOC.
            > >
            > > Tensions, however, over the imposition of various rules led some AEOM/
            > > AOC parishes to leave the AOC and become part of the Patriarchate of
            > > Jerusalem. While it has been accepted as de facto reality, it is
            > > completely uncanonical and (I am editorializing here) seen by some as
            > > a rather cynical move.
            > >
            > > There are also the more ethnic churches--
            > >
            > > The Serbian Orthodox Church
            > > The Romanian Orthodox Church
            > > The Bulgarian Orthodox Church
            > >
            > > and in some cases these come in more than one flavor. Some of them
            > > have received influxes of converts, and in particular from a somewhat
            > > "new-age" group formerly known as the Holy Order of MANS (that's
            > > "mysterion-anthropos-nous-sophia"; you get the picture). This group
            > > was centered in a somewhat important monastery in northern California
            > > founded by Seraphim Rose and Herman Podmozhensky; Rose died around
            > > 1980, and Podmozhensky subsequently got into some kind of trouble with
            > > ROCOR, with which he was associated; he left them and took his group
            > > (now known as the "Christ the Savior Brotherhood") to a splinter group
            > > connected to a "bishop" (no record of whose ordination was ever found)
            > > in new york which i think has since evaporated; anyway when further
            > > troubles occurred, this CSB then split itself up and joined and was
            > > integrated into the various canonical jurisdictions. That, i think,
            > > has been good for all parties.
            > >
            > > All of these jurisdictions except ROCOR belong to what is called the
            > > "Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the
            > > Americas" (SCOBA), which brings together the canonical hierarchs of
            > > Orthodox jurisdictions in the Americas. This is the group addressed by
            > > the Chambesy meeting and told to get its house presentable for further
            > > development. If you're in a strange town looking in the phone book for
            > > a church to go to, and you just want to worship somewhere that's a
            > > canonical part of "world Orthodoxy", this is the clue or cue you look
            > > for. It should be stressed that relations between all the canonical
            > > groups are cordial and we do occasionally celebrate various feast days
            > > and other events together.
            > >
            > > But there are also a number of non-canonical, mostly old-calendarist
            > > groups. These tend to adhere to the "old calendar" (as do some of the
            > > canonical groups), but they also tend to regard themselves as the only
            > > true Orthodox christians, or christians at all:
            > >
            > > Holy Orthodox Church of N America (HOCNA)
            > > Several old calendar Orthodox churches of Greece
            > > The Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church in North
            > > America (THEOCACNA)
            > > etc etc
            > >
            > > they get smaller and smaller, and sometimes whackier and whackier.
            > > This is not, of course, they way they would tell the story. There is
            > > even an "African Orthodox Church" in San Francisco, somewhat well
            > > known, which is devoted to the music of St John Coltrane. (They claim
            > > apostolic succession but that's not how we see things, of course.)
            > >
            > > Orthodoxy in America lacks unity because of the situation that existed
            > > here as a result of the Russian Revolution. Disunity took root because
            > > of sheer phyletism (ethnic pride) and lack of vision. And what
            > > splintering we've undergone has resulted from the "purist" or
            > > "rigorist" or "integrist" stances taken, arguably, as a response to
            > > the final loss in 1917 of any Orthodox empire, and the rudderless
            > > bewilderment of subsequent life in the 20th century. Perhaps, though,
            > > in this century, as we finally adjust to the facts of our new
            > > situation, matters will normalize for all of us.
            > >
            > > regards,
            > >
            > > john burnett.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
            To write to the moderators, please email:
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael Thannisch
            Goodness, they sure move around.  I first saw them on TV in the 1980 s when they were just outside of OK City, ran a bakery, and were for all practical
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 2, 2009
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              Goodness, they sure move around.  I first saw them on TV in the 1980's when they were just outside of OK City, ran a bakery, and were for all practical purposes the local volunteer fire department.

              Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michel Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/ http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan St. La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081

              --- On Wed, 9/2/09, rhawkjmt@... <rhawkjmt@...> wrote:

              From: rhawkjmt@... <rhawkjmt@...>
              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations
              To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 7:50 PM






               





              The Ukrainian monastery which was mentioned has no connections with any of

              the canonical jurisdictions; they claim orders from the "Samo-svjatyj"

              (self-consecrated) Ukrainians of the 1920s.



              The other monastery mentioned as being in Nebraska is now located in

              California. They are the purveyors of "Monastery Icons," and they also have no

              connection with any canonical Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction.



              J. Michael Thompson

              Pittsburgh, PA





              In a message dated 9/2/2009 8:48:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

              mjthannisch@ sbcglobal. net writes:



              They don't seem to be linked in any way to any of the Orthodox

              Jurisdictions.



              Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach +Mar Michel Abportus

              _mjthannisch@ mjthanniscmjt_ (mailto:mjthannisch@ sbcglobal. net) Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham

              _http://www.freewebs http://www. freewhttp: //_

              (http://www.freewebs .com/childrenofa braham/)

              _http://www.facebook http://www. fhttp://www. fhttp://wwwhttp: //www_ (http://www.facebook .com/people/ Michael-Joe- Thannisch/ 1173094868)

              204 Sylvan St. La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081



              --- On Wed, 9/2/09, Lewis Whitaker <_lhwhitaker@ gmail.lhw_

              (mailto:lhwhitaker@gmail. com) > wrote:



              From: Lewis Whitaker <_lhwhitaker@ gmail.lhw_ (mailto:lhwhitaker@gmail. com) >

              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations

              To: _liturgy-l@yahoogro uliturg_ (mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogrou ps.com)

              Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 7:15 PM



              How do you define "questionable, " Mar Michel Abportus?



              Lew



              On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@ sbcglobal.

              net



              > wrote:



              > There is an "Orthodox" monastery here in Houston of questionable



              > provenance, although they do a good job helping the street people.

              Another



              > Monastery in Nebraska, which used to be in OK City, also questionable.

              Some



              > of you may get emails or brochures from them, Monastery Icons.



              >



              > Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach +Mar Michel Abportus



              > mjthannisch@ sbcglobal. net Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham



              > _http://www.freewebs _ (http://www.freewebs /) .com/childrenofa braham/



              > _http://www.facebook _ (http://www.facebook /) .com/people/ Michael-Joe-

              Thannisch/ 1173094868 204



              > Sylvan St. La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081



              >



              > --- On Wed, 9/2/09, cantor03@aol. com <cantor03@aol. com> wrote:



              >



              > From: cantor03@aol. com <cantor03@aol. com>



              > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations



              > To: liturgy-l@yahoogrou ps.com



              > Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009, 5:28 PM



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              > In a message dated 9/2/2009 16:00:55 Eastern Daylight



              > Time,



              >



              > rdrjames@comcast. net writes:



              >



              >



              >



              > Gets complicated. >>>>



              >



              >



              >



              > Anglicans don't have the corner on small splinter groups.



              >



              >



              >



              > Some years ago there was a period of publicity via the



              >



              > local newspapers and television stations about a small, actually



              >



              > two person, Orthodox Order in the village over the next mountain



              >



              > here in Pennsylvania at the edge of the Poconos.



              >



              >



              >



              > This Orthodox establishment/ church was in the spotlight



              >



              > because the neighbors were up in arms at cars of church



              >



              > goers clogging the streets in the neighborhood.



              >



              >



              >



              > The church was constructed out of what had been a rather



              >



              > spacious two car garage in an older neighborhood.



              >



              >



              >



              > It became apparent that one of the monks was a bishop,



              >



              > and the other a priest. An OCA deacon I know mentioned



              >



              > that the monks didn't belong to any Orthodox jurisdiction



              >



              > he could find, and appeared to be self-educated and self-



              >



              > ordained.



              >



              >



              >



              > A few weeks after the start of this parking scenario, it



              >



              > became apparent that the bishop had now become an



              >



              > archbishop --- at least that's the way he wished to be



              >



              > addressed.



              >



              >



              >



              > A compromise of sorts was reached regarding the parking



              >



              > situation, and, to my knowledge, they still are a going



              >



              > congregation.



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              > David Strang.



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              >



              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              >



              >



              >



              > ------------ --------- --------- ------



              >



              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at _http://groups. _ (http://groups. /)

              yahoo.com/ group/liturgy- l/To write to the moderators, please email:



              > liturgy-l-owner@ yahoogroups. comYahoo! Groups Links



              >



              >



              >



              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Daniel Lawson
              ... I believe there was a poster on this list a few years ago who had a lot to say about Monastary Icons but that particular persona is not still around, as
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 3, 2009
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                On Sep 2, 2009, at 8:50 PM, rhawkjmt@... wrote:

                > The other monastery mentioned as being in Nebraska is now located in
                > California. They are the purveyors of "Monastery Icons," and they
                > also have no
                > connection with any canonical Eastern Orthodox jurisdiction.
                >>
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                I believe there was a poster on this list a few years ago who had a
                lot to say about "Monastary Icons" but that particular persona is not
                still around, as far as I know. Probably in the archives, though.

                Peace, Daniel Lawson
              • Michael Thannisch
                I don t remember anyone in particular, but it seems we had a discussion on them in which we talked about purchasing icons from a group which might not actually
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 3, 2009
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                  I don't remember anyone in particular, but it seems we had a discussion on them in which we talked about purchasing icons from a group which might not actually be "catholic" (as in believing in the Trinity, etc.. 

                  Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach   +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/ http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan St. La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081

                  --- On Thu, 9/3/09, Daniel Lawson <k95dl01@...> wrote:

                  From: Daniel Lawson <k95dl01@...>
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations
                  To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 6:30 AM






                   









                  I believe there was a poster on this list a few years ago who had a

                  lot to say about "Monastary Icons" but that particular persona is not

                  still around, as far as I know. Probably in the archives, though.



                  Peace, Daniel Lawson


























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • skreed1@cox.net
                  They sell a couple of rather good varieties of incense - particularly their pure frankincense and their sweet myrr (a 50/50 mix of these two is excellent) We
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 3, 2009
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                    They sell a couple of rather good varieties of incense - particularly their pure frankincense and their sweet myrr (a 50/50 mix of these two is excellent)

                    We have heard the same stories about them, that they are knostic etc - we simply give what we buy a nice sprinkling of holy water upon receipt and use it.

                    I have heard anecdotally of "some" places that refuse to purchase or use their products because of the questions.


                    SWR




                    Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Michael Thannisch <mjthannisch@...>

                    Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 05:57:02
                    To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations


                    I don't remember anyone in particular, but it seems we had a discussion on them in which we talked about purchasing icons from a group which might not actually be "catholic" (as in believing in the Trinity, etc..�

                    Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach � +Mar Michael Abportus mjthannisch@... Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/ http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868 204 Sylvan St. La Porte, TX 77571 281-867-9081

                    --- On Thu, 9/3/09, Daniel Lawson <k95dl01@...> wrote:

                    From: Daniel Lawson <k95dl01@...>
                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Varieties of Denominations
                    To: "liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Thursday, September 3, 2009, 6:30 AM
















                    I believe there was a poster on this list a few years ago who had a

                    lot to say about "Monastary Icons" but that particular persona is not

                    still around, as far as I know. Probably in the archives, though.



                    Peace, Daniel Lawson


























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • asteresplanetai
                    ... the western rite consists of people who have gone into the antiochian orthodox church (aforementioned AOC), but who retain an attachment to the BCP in some
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 3, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      +++

                      > Posted by: "John Schultz" pukne@... pukne

                      > Very informative post John. I do have a question: Where do Western
                      > rite
                      > Orthodox Churches fit in this mix?


                      the western rite consists of people who have gone into the antiochian
                      orthodox church (aforementioned AOC), but who retain an attachment to
                      the BCP in some rather edited form. I really don't know much about it
                      directly, since i've never even been to such a church. They're
                      legitimately Orthodox, but I think it was a mistake to allow that
                      (even if the precedent goes to an experiment by Ss Tikhon and John
                      Maximovitch), because the people in the western rite have no
                      liturgical connection with the rest of the Orthodox Church, and their
                      so-called "western rite" (which is not really traditional but rather
                      "cooked up") has none of the breadth, richness, or depth of the long-
                      established byzantine rite. But the idea was that it should be easier
                      for people who are scared or put off by all the complicated
                      "byzantineness" of the orthodox church to find a home where they can
                      adhere to orthodox faith and doctrine.

                      i want to stress again that i pay little attention to any of this
                      stuff, and so you will need to check my facts if you use what i wrote
                      in any context but informally-- or with anyone who cares. As James
                      Morgan pointed out, there are several flavors of Carpatho-Russians,
                      and so forth, which i didn't mention. But beyond such negligence,
                      people are likely to come *unglued* if what i wrote contradicts their
                      version of the facts. And maybe they would have reason for doing so.

                      the canon i mentioned that gave jurisdiction of the "barbarian lands"
                      to the ecumenical patriarch is canon 28 of chalcedon. Of course, back
                      then, the "barbarian lands" were mostly bulgaria, i.e., nearby.

                      regarding "Monastery Icons", no that group is not canonical. Or even
                      Orthodox, except in name. Practice shifts over time among such groups,
                      but at least some years ago, they were dedicating their icons to both
                      Jesus and Shiva or something like that. I have an article about it
                      somewhere, but you might find it online before i find it on my disc.

                      Regarding "questionable provenance", for us, the priesthood is not
                      simply a question of "apostolic succession" but also one of
                      "communion". That's the significance we place on canonical order. If
                      your bishop is not in communion with anyone else, he is not part of
                      the church of Christ and does not have the priesthood. He may have
                      been ordained by five reigning patriarchs and may call himself a
                      "patriarch"-- and though i'm aware of none who have been so ordained,
                      some do thus call themselves-- but it doesn't change the fact that he
                      is outside the church, and there is no priesthood outside the church.

                      i do wish people would TRIM their posts. What i wrote was rather long,
                      and i had to scroll through all of it some TEN times this morning.

                      regards,

                      john burnett
                    • Lewis Whitaker
                      Just what are you talking about here, John? Lew On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 11:44 AM, asteresplanetai
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 3, 2009
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                        Just what are you talking about here, John?
                        Lew


                        On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 11:44 AM, asteresplanetai <
                        asteresplanetai@...> wrote:

                        > But beyond such negligence,
                        > people are likely to come *unglued* if what i wrote contradicts their
                        > version of the facts. And maybe they would have reason for doing so.
                        > regards,
                        >
                        > john burnett
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • asteresplanetai
                        ... only that some people take this stuff very, very seriously and get quite upset if you tell the story in some way that they don t agree with, inadvertently
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 4, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          +++

                          > Posted by: "Lewis Whitaker" lhwhitaker@... lhwatl

                          > Just what are you talking about here, John?
                          > Lew

                          >> But beyond such negligence,
                          >> people are likely to come *unglued* if what i wrote contradicts their
                          >> version of the facts. And maybe they would have reason for doing so.


                          only that some people take this stuff very, very seriously and get
                          quite upset if you tell the story in some way that they don't agree
                          with, inadvertently or not. And there are several versions out there,
                          of some of the stories of how some groups got started. And that some
                          people are ultra-concerned that you make their particular microdoxy
                          (calendar or whatever) as important to the picture as they do. And
                          that some are using their microdoxies to cover up some kind of
                          misbehavior that led to their departure.

                          But as i say, i don't spend much time on any of it, so i am likely
                          *not* to have written a fully accurate, much less "correct" view on
                          any of it. What i wrote is my understanding, which i believe is at
                          least generally true, at least at a distance of 100 yards!

                          it's a sad fact of our church life today and possibly even yesterday
                          and tomorrow that we often distract ourselves with stories of
                          ecclesiastical disputes and yet don't know the stories in the four
                          gospels very well. This might sometimes even be true in some of your
                          churches as well, no?

                          but of course there are.... liturgical paraments--- now *that's* an
                          issue we could come to blows over!!

                          regards,

                          john burnett
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