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Historical liturgy

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  • Neil Thomsen
    Folks, I am new to this list and have come to enjoy lurking and reading what others have to say. I have been impressed with the level of discussion on this
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 2, 2001
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      Folks,

      I am new to this list and have come to enjoy "lurking" and reading
      what others have to say. I have been impressed with the level of
      discussion on this list and hope I might be able to impose upon your good
      graces for some assistance as I research and construct a couple of liturgies.

      I am a member of a historical re-enactment group dedicated to the
      preservation of the history of the Loyalist soldiers who fought against the
      American rebels during the Rebellion of the American Colonies
      (1775-1783). We are retiring our Regimental and King's Colours in the near
      future due to wear and tear upon these items and will be constructing and
      consecrating new Colours for the Regiment.

      I have found modern liturgies for the consecration of new Colours
      on the Internet and will use those as a starting point for the development
      of the liturgy, but we would like to be able to research liturgies of the
      18th century and see how these ceremonies were conducted in the late
      1770s. Being a pastor in a Lutheran Church in Canada places me at a great
      disadvantage as Regimental Colours have never come near the place. Could
      anyone on the list assist me with resources they may have at their disposal
      or direct me to a source for such information.

      Your assistance is greatly appreciated.

      Neil

      ---------------------------------------
      The Rev. Neil C. Thomsen™
      Cambridge, ON
    • James O'Regan
      ... You mght try here: http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/ here: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/ and for Canada here: http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/ehome.htm here:
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 2, 2001
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        Neil Thomsen requested:

        > I have found modern liturgies for the consecration of new Colours
        > on the Internet and will use those as a starting point for the development
        > of the liturgy, but we would like to be able to research liturgies of the
        > 18th century and see how these ceremonies were conducted in the late
        > 1770s. Being a pastor in a Lutheran Church in Canada places me at a great
        > disadvantage as Regimental Colours have never come near the place. Could
        > anyone on the list assist me with resources they may have at their
        > disposal
        > or direct me to a source for such information.

        You mght try here:
        http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/
        here:
        http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/
        and for Canada here:
        http://www.nlc-bnc.ca/ehome.htm
        here:
        http://www.civilization.ca/cwm/cwmeng/cwmeng.html
        here:
        http://www.archives.ca/00/00_e.html#top
        and here:
        http://www.dnd.ca/dhp/index_e.html

        for the British side, here:
        http://www.cofe.anglican.org/commonworship/
        here:
        http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/
        and here:
        http://portico.bl.uk/





        James O'Regan
        http://www.jamesoregan.com
        tel 613-824-4706
      • fcsenn@aol.com
        In a message dated 2/2/2001 4:23:40 PM Central Standard Time, ... You will probably get more sympathy for this request from British members on the list than
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 2, 2001
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          In a message dated 2/2/2001 4:23:40 PM Central Standard Time,
          thomsen@... writes:


          >
          > I am a member of a historical re-enactment group dedicated to the
          > preservation of the history of the Loyalist soldiers who fought against the
          > American rebels during the Rebellion of the American Colonies
          > (1775-1783). We are retiring our Regimental and King's Colours in the near
          > future due to wear and tear upon these items and will be constructing and
          > consecrating new Colours for the Regiment.
          >

          You will probably get more sympathy for this request from British members on
          the list than American members. I hope the new colours will not be used for
          similar purposes anytime soon! :)

          FCSenn


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • atombomb
          Blessed be God. ... At first I just pressed Delete, as this thread didn t particularly grab me, but then I got to wondering about the propriety of such a
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 3, 2001
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            Blessed be God.

            Neil Thomsen wrote:
            >
            > I am a member of a historical re-enactment group dedicated to the
            > preservation of the history of the Loyalist soldiers who fought against the
            > American rebels during the Rebellion of the American Colonies
            > (1775-1783). We are retiring our Regimental and King's Colours in the near
            > future due to wear and tear upon these items and will be constructing and
            > consecrating new Colours for the Regiment.
            >
            > I have found modern liturgies for the consecration of new Colours
            > on the Internet and will use those as a starting point for the development
            > of the liturgy, but we would like to be able to research liturgies of the
            > 18th century and see how these ceremonies were conducted in the late
            > 1770s. Being a pastor in a Lutheran Church in Canada places me at a great
            > disadvantage as Regimental Colours have never come near the place. Could
            > anyone on the list assist me with resources they may have at their disposal
            > or direct me to a source for such information.

            At first I just pressed Delete, as this thread didn't particularly grab
            me, but then I got to wondering about the propriety of such a ceremony
            and pulled this back out.

            Would the retirement and consecration you propose to do be part of a
            "re-enactment"? If so, can Christians "re-enact", or even "act"
            Christian prayer? Or is there something about this sort of re-enactment
            that's fundamentally at odds in some way with Christian anamnesis?

            Would the fact that "this is the way it would have been done back then"
            be the (primary? only?) reason why (most of?) the participants would
            take part in such "prayer"?

            Is such a "use" of "liturgy" appropriate?

            Isn't this "religion", in the sense that was done away in Christ and the
            Church (but to which we are magnificently prone to turning Christianity
            back into, every chance we get)?

            Curious to know what people think.

            Regards,

            John Burnett
          • Marnie
            ... Interesting point. I belong to the Richard III Society, which in London has an annual Requiem Mass for the repose of the souls of Richard and his family.
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 3, 2001
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              .John Burnett writes:
              > Would the retirement and consecration you propose to do be part of a
              > "re-enactment"? If so, can Christians "re-enact", or even "act"
              > Christian prayer? Or is there something about this sort of re-enactment
              > that's fundamentally at odds in some way with Christian anamnesis?
              >
              > Would the fact that "this is the way it would have been done back then"
              > be the (primary? only?) reason why (most of?) the participants would
              > take part in such "prayer"?

              Interesting point. I belong to the Richard III Society, which in London has
              an annual Requiem Mass for the repose of the souls of Richard and his
              family. They make a point of adhering as far as possible to a liturgical
              procedure and music which would have been familiar in 1485 to Richard. The
              organisers and many participant Society members are christians, but many
              others are there for the interest of the occasion, perhaps with a sense of
              honouring Richard but probably not a particular desire for prayer and
              Eucharist. I don't know if that's any different from the unchurched family
              members who attend baptisms etc. out of respect for the candidate but
              without personal faith, and I guess none of us have a problem with their
              participation. As to the use of Latin and chant from the period, I think
              it's all within the permitted liturgical usage anyway, however unusual these
              days, and certainly the intentions of the organisers are sincerely
              christian. The antiquarian angle is not the reason for doing it in the
              first place but is considered an appropriate and edifying way of celebrating
              this particular Mass. I'd feel differently about it if it were organised by
              members with no christian affiliations as some kind of "cute" thing to do.

              Peace,
              Marnie Barrell
            • Robert J. Riley
              In the Original Message below, Marnie Barrell writes:
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 3, 2001
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                In the Original Message below, Marnie Barrell writes:

                <<<
                I belong to the Richard III Society
                >>>

                A friend of mine belongs to the Charles I Society. Is there a society for
                every English monarch? Is there an Edward II Society? Or one for James II?
                Edward VIII?

                Sincerely,
                Robert J. Riley
                mailto:rriley@...

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Marnie [mailto:marnie@...]
                Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 6:26 AM
                To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Historical liturgy



                .John Burnett writes:
                > Would the retirement and consecration you propose to do be part of a
                > "re-enactment"? If so, can Christians "re-enact", or even "act"
                > Christian prayer? Or is there something about this sort of re-enactment
                > that's fundamentally at odds in some way with Christian anamnesis?
                >
                > Would the fact that "this is the way it would have been done back then"
                > be the (primary? only?) reason why (most of?) the participants would
                > take part in such "prayer"?

                Interesting point. I belong to the Richard III Society, which in London has
                an annual Requiem Mass for the repose of the souls of Richard and his
                family. They make a point of adhering as far as possible to a liturgical
                procedure and music which would have been familiar in 1485 to Richard. The
                organisers and many participant Society members are christians, but many
                others are there for the interest of the occasion, perhaps with a sense of
                honouring Richard but probably not a particular desire for prayer and
                Eucharist. I don't know if that's any different from the unchurched family
                members who attend baptisms etc. out of respect for the candidate but
                without personal faith, and I guess none of us have a problem with their
                participation. As to the use of Latin and chant from the period, I think
                it's all within the permitted liturgical usage anyway, however unusual these
                days, and certainly the intentions of the organisers are sincerely
                christian. The antiquarian angle is not the reason for doing it in the
                first place but is considered an appropriate and edifying way of celebrating
                this particular Mass. I'd feel differently about it if it were organised by
                members with no christian affiliations as some kind of "cute" thing to do.

                Peace,
                Marnie Barrell



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              • Simon Kershaw
                ... The Society of King Charles the Martyr, perhaps? This society was, IIRC, founded in the 19C wit the aim of restoring Charles I to the calendar after the
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 3, 2001
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                  "Robert J. Riley" wrote:
                  >
                  > In the Original Message below, Marnie Barrell writes:
                  >
                  > <<<
                  > I belong to the Richard III Society
                  > >>>
                  >
                  > A friend of mine belongs to the Charles I Society.

                  The Society of King Charles the Martyr, perhaps? This society was, IIRC,
                  founded in the 19C wit the aim of restoring Charles I to the calendar
                  after the Victorians had removed his sommemoration from being annexed to
                  the Book of Common Prayer. It effectively achieved its objective with
                  the authorization of the Alternative Service Book in 1980, and it
                  ensured that the commemoration remained in the 1997 revision of the
                  Calendar for Common Worship.

                  > Is there a society for
                  > every English monarch? Is there an Edward II Society? Or one for James II?
                  > Edward VIII?

                  These two monarchs, Richard III and Charles I, seem to attract a
                  diversity of views, with the majority view -- certainly of the former --
                  that they were Bad. Pretty much everyone agrees that the others you
                  mention were Bad so there's little call for societies aimed at reetoring
                  their reputations.

                  --
                  Simon Kershaw
                  simon@...
                  Cambridge, England
                • Douglas Cowling
                  ... I want to join the Edward VII Society! Doug Cowling Toronto
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 3, 2001
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                    on 2/3/01 10:37 AM, Robert J. Riley at rriley@... wrote:

                    > A friend of mine belongs to the Charles I Society. Is there a society for
                    > every English monarch? Is there an Edward II Society? Or one for James II?
                    > Edward VIII?
                    >
                    > Sincerely,
                    > Robert J. Riley


                    I want to join the Edward VII Society!

                    Doug Cowling
                    Toronto
                  • atombomb
                    Blessed be God. ... I wouldn t have any trouble with this-- I d probably even like it, if the basic and main, if not only purpose were really to pray for the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 3, 2001
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                      Blessed be God.

                      Marnie wrote:
                      >
                      > > Would the retirement and consecration you propose to do be part of a
                      > > "re-enactment"? If so, can Christians "re-enact", or even "act"
                      > > Christian prayer? Or is there something about this sort of re-enactment
                      > > that's fundamentally at odds in some way with Christian anamnesis?
                      > >
                      > > Would the fact that "this is the way it would have been done back then"
                      > > be the (primary? only?) reason why (most of?) the participants would
                      > > take part in such "prayer"?
                      >
                      > Interesting point. I belong to the Richard III Society, which in London has
                      > an annual Requiem Mass for the repose of the souls of Richard and his
                      > family. They make a point of adhering as far as possible to a liturgical
                      > procedure and music which would have been familiar in 1485 to Richard.

                      I wouldn't have any trouble with this-- I'd probably even like it, if
                      the basic and main, if not only purpose were really to pray for the
                      repose of Richard III and family, towards whom I felt some personal
                      connection and therefore concern-- and if the antique ceremonial was
                      considered a legitimate undertaking within the context of the living
                      tradition of the local church.

                      But if it were in any way just a kind of curiosity-- anathema!

                      > The
                      > organisers and many participant Society members are christians, but many
                      > others are there for the interest of the occasion, perhaps with a sense of
                      > honouring Richard but probably not a particular desire for prayer and
                      > Eucharist. I don't know if that's any different from the unchurched family
                      > members who attend baptisms etc. out of respect for the candidate but
                      > without personal faith, and I guess none of us have a problem with their
                      > participation.

                      Which might or might not be a good thing. The early Church excluded even
                      catechumens-- and in some places, they still do. Native Americans don't
                      permit non-Indians to participate in some of their rites. Are we more
                      "inclusive", or do we just not take ours as seriously?

                      > As to the use of Latin and chant from the period, I think
                      > it's all within the permitted liturgical usage anyway, however unusual these
                      > days, and certainly the intentions of the organisers are sincerely
                      > christian. The antiquarian angle is not the reason for doing it in the
                      > first place but is considered an appropriate and edifying way of celebrating
                      > this particular Mass. I'd feel differently about it if it were organised by
                      > members with no christian affiliations as some kind of "cute" thing to do.

                      I'm curious-- has this been a continuous memorial since the repose of R3
                      (I suspect not) or what is its history? Why R3 in particular, and why a
                      memorial eucharist?

                      Having services for the repose of someone can't be anything but
                      laudable. On the other hand pastoral discernment might have to be
                      exercised even here. Gurdjieff died in the bosom of the Church, as the
                      saying goes-- but he's behind a lot of newage-ism. A coterie of devotees
                      recently tried to get our priest to serve a memorial service for him--
                      though none of them are even Christian, much less Orthodox. It's
                      apparently a sort of "thing" they like to do-- have these nice Russian
                      services (preferably even in Slavonic sometimes!) on the anniversary of
                      Gurdjieff's death. Our priest decided not to do it for them because it
                      wouldn't really have been about faith in Jesus Christ. They're still
                      kind of upset about this, but still have no thought of becoming Christian.

                      Christianity becomes a comforting, or perhaps amusing ceremony where
                      everything is done (fill in the blank-- "neatly", "according to the
                      rules", "cutting edge", "traditionally", "experimentally",
                      "beautifully", "movingly"-- you name it)-- all very comfortable,
                      somehow, and somehow centered, finally, on "me".

                      What is it that fills us in these historical re-enactments and
                      ceremonies?

                      And is there anything that distinguishes us from the Buddhists or
                      Hindus, beyond our "rituals", our way of "enacting the sacred"?

                      Questions, not judgments-- I'd like to know what people think.

                      Regards,

                      John Burnett
                    • Theodore R. Lorah, Jr.
                      ... Charles I was martyred primarily becuase he woulds not give up a Catholic understanding of the Anglican Church, whereas Parliament insisted on it being
                      Message 10 of 10 , Feb 6, 2001
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                        "Robert J. Riley" wrote:

                        > In the Original Message below, Marnie Barrell writes:
                        >
                        > <<<
                        > I belong to the Richard III Society
                        > >>>
                        >
                        > A friend of mine belongs to the Charles I Society. Is there a society for
                        > every English monarch? Is there an Edward II Society? Or one for James II?
                        > Edward VIII?
                        >
                        > Sincerely,
                        > Robert J. Riley
                        >

                        Charles I was martyred primarily becuase he woulds not give up a Catholic
                        understanding of the Anglican Church, whereas Parliament insisted on it being
                        Reformed. Therefore, Anglocatholics revere him as a martyr and would like to
                        see him as a saint. I have been to two Charles the Martyr services. They are
                        very interesting.

                        Ted Lorah
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