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  • rwhite84@neo.rr.com
    http://www.alban.org/conversation.aspx?id=7544 Will take you to a piece on Maundy Thursday by Craig Saterlee (Lutheran, teaching at Chicago Seminary for the
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 6, 2009
      http://www.alban.org/conversation.aspx?id=7544

      Will take you to a piece on Maundy Thursday by Craig Saterlee (Lutheran, teaching at Chicago Seminary for the non-Lutheran sorts who might receive this). Some will find it provocative, others heretical, others challenging.

      Saterlee's conclusion:

      In our years of ministry together, the people of St. Timothy's and I had grown from needing to understand worship in order to participate in it to needing to participate in worship in order to understand it. The congregation also determined that participation means being actively involved. We learned this together: God taught us when we entered into Christian worship as a mystery and gave God the first word.
    • James O'Regan
      This is exactly Guardini s long-held approach as well. One understands liturgy, not by reading about it or studying it, rather by doing it. Guardini uses the
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 6, 2009
        This is exactly Guardini's long-held approach as well. One understands
        liturgy, not by reading about it or studying it, rather by doing it.
        Guardini uses the same two concepts in 1924 as 1964: Schauen and Tun,
        usually translated as Seeing and Doing. In his famous letter of 1964,
        he again restates that what one needs to learn is not how to read and
        write but to learn how to Schauen.

        Schauen and Tun could have been Sehen and Machen, but they were not.
        Schauen is to see something shown and Tun is to perform an action.
        Both are strong statements of stimulus-response, so that as assembly,
        for example, according to Guardini, the only way to experience liturgy
        is via strong stimulation.

        All the best,

        James O'Regan
        oregan@...


        On 6-Apr-09, at 12:10 PM, <rwhite84@...> <rwhite84@...>
        wrote:

        > Saterlee's conclusion:
        >
        > In our years of ministry together, the people of St. Timothy's and I
        > had grown from needing to understand worship in order to participate
        > in it to needing to participate in worship in order to understand
        > it. The congregation also determined that participation means being
        > actively involved. We learned this together: God taught us when we
        > entered into Christian worship as a mystery and gave God the first
        > word.
      • Tom Poelker
        I could not agree more with these first two threads. However, how do I work around the widespread understanding of participation in the liturgy meaning
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 6, 2009
          I could not agree more with these first two threads.

          However, how do I work around the widespread understanding of
          "participation" in the liturgy meaning taking a ministry, especially a
          ministry that shows one's own talents, including creativity in
          constantly remaking the liturgy?

          It seems to me that settling on and repeatedly partaking of a ritual is
          elementary to liturgy, but the most influential people in our parish
          seem to want to constantly be doing something different, creative,
          contemporary, and invent new rituals or import them from Amerinds,
          Buddhists, Hindus, etc.

          Tom Poelker
          St. Louis, Missouri
          USA
          -- Maybe I don't
          deserve God's love,
          but I'm stuck with it,
          so I might as well
          make the most of it.



          James O'Regan wrote:
          >
          > This is exactly Guardini's long-held approach as well. One understands
          > liturgy, not by reading about it or studying it, rather by doing it.
          > Guardini uses the same two concepts in 1924 as 1964: Schauen and Tun,
          > usually translated as Seeing and Doing. In his famous letter of 1964,
          > he again restates that what one needs to learn is not how to read and
          > write but to learn how to Schauen.
          >
          > Schauen and Tun could have been Sehen and Machen, but they were not.
          > Schauen is to see something shown and Tun is to perform an action.
          > Both are strong statements of stimulus-response, so that as assembly,
          > for example, according to Guardini, the only way to experience liturgy
          > is via strong stimulation.
          >
          > All the best,
          >
          > James O'Regan
          > oregan@... <mailto:oregan%40jamesoregan.com>
          >
          > On 6-Apr-09, at 12:10 PM, <rwhite84@...
          > <mailto:rwhite84%40neo.rr.com>> <rwhite84@...
          > <mailto:rwhite84%40neo.rr.com>>
          > wrote:
          >
          > > Saterlee's conclusion:
          > >
          > > In our years of ministry together, the people of St. Timothy's and I
          > > had grown from needing to understand worship in order to participate
          > > in it to needing to participate in worship in order to understand
          > > it. The congregation also determined that participation means being
          > > actively involved. We learned this together: God taught us when we
          > > entered into Christian worship as a mystery and gave God the first
          > > word.
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Seboldt
          ... I ve heard of the book from which this comes, and it makes me want to read it even more. If indeed it s this kind of story of the power of liturgy from a
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 6, 2009
            rwhite84@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > http://www.alban.org/conversation.aspx?id=7544
            > <http://www.alban.org/conversation.aspx?id=7544>
            >
            > Will take you to a piece on Maundy Thursday by Craig Saterlee (Lutheran,
            > teaching at Chicago Seminary for the non-Lutheran sorts who might
            > receive this). Some will find it provocative, others heretical, others
            > challenging.

            I've heard of the book from which this comes, and it makes me want to
            read it even more. If indeed it's this kind of story of the power of
            liturgy from a "story" approach and not just from a "head",
            "historical", or "rubrical" approach, it's just what a lot of people (my
            congregation included) need.

            On Maundy Thursday in particular, I found it interesting that, while
            we've done footwashing sometimes in the past, for some reason it wasn't
            done last year. In the discussion for *this* year, the pastor was
            initially using the argument, "well, the [ELCA Evangelical Lutheran
            Worship] rubrics say the footwashing is optional..."... While this may
            be strictly speaking true, a little reflection would show that the
            "rubrics" in a Lutheran resource are often worded to dodge many
            different sensitivities and sensibilities about ritual actions that
            could be perceived as overly "Catholic" or "high-church" in some
            less-liturgical strands of Lutheranism.

            So you can imagine that the idea of using such a rubric seemingly as a
            dodge to not take the trouble of doing an action with such a long
            history on this day evoked a bit of the prophet in me at that meeting
            ;-) ... apparently whatever humble attempt at prophetic utterance I made
            at that moment was effective enough to move us to actually DO it this
            year... but of course, a piece like this would have been even more
            effective persuasion.

            John Seboldt
            Milwaukee, WI
          • dlewisaao@aol.com
            All I can say is that the original footwashing is one of the key features of what Maundy Thursday commemorates. But I know that I am preaching to the choir!
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 6, 2009
              All I can say is that the original footwashing is one of the key features of
              what Maundy Thursday commemorates. But I know that I am preaching to the
              choir!

              David


              In a message dated 4/6/2009 5:13:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              rohrwerk@... writes:

              rwhite84@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > http://www.alban.org/conversation.aspx?id=7544
              > <http://www.alban.org/conversation.aspx?id=7544>
              >
              > Will take you to a piece on Maundy Thursday by Craig Saterlee (Lutheran,
              > teaching at Chicago Seminary for the non-Lutheran sorts who might
              > receive this). Some will find it provocative, others heretical, others
              > challenging.

              I've heard of the book from which this comes, and it makes me want to
              read it even more. If indeed it's this kind of story of the power of
              liturgy from a "story" approach and not just from a "head",
              "historical", or "rubrical" approach, it's just what a lot of people (my
              congregation included) need.

              On Maundy Thursday in particular, I found it interesting that, while
              we've done footwashing sometimes in the past, for some reason it wasn't
              done last year. In the discussion for *this* year, the pastor was
              initially using the argument, "well, the [ELCA Evangelical Lutheran
              Worship] rubrics say the footwashing is optional..."... While this may
              be strictly speaking true, a little reflection would show that the
              "rubrics" in a Lutheran resource are often worded to dodge many
              different sensitivities and sensibilities about ritual actions that
              could be perceived as overly "Catholic" or "high-church" in some
              less-liturgical strands of Lutheranism.

              So you can imagine that the idea of using such a rubric seemingly as a
              dodge to not take the trouble of doing an action with such a long
              history on this day evoked a bit of the prophet in me at that meeting
              ;-) ... apparently whatever humble attempt at prophetic utterance I made
              at that moment was effective enough to move us to actually DO it this
              year... but of course, a piece like this would have been even more
              effective persuasion.

              John Seboldt
              Milwaukee, WI


              ------------------------------------

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              write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
              Groups Links





              **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or
              less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • dlewisaao@aol.com
              Could it be that the people in question are expressing their comparative powerlessness in RC decision-making and seeking an outlet for the creative side of
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 6, 2009
                Could it be that the people in question are expressing their comparative
                powerlessness in RC decision-making and seeking an outlet for the creative side
                of their frustrations? Interestingly, in my Anglo-Catholic parish which has
                all sorts of "type A" people, there is little interest in tinkering with the
                liturgy (which actually does get tinkered with on an ongoing basis, which
                really should happen, and in which there is excellent participation) but there is
                a lot of interest in doing the work of the Church. Is the work of the
                Church outside the liturgy regarded as not that important in your parish? If so,
                is there any way to turn it around? Is the liturgy the only place where
                your parishioners believe that they can involve themselves in shaping? Or is
                the pastor too territorial and the response you are describing is coming from
                "type A" people who want to make this their territory too?

                David


                In a message dated 4/6/2009 4:47:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                TomPoelker@... writes:

                I could not agree more with these first two threads.

                However, how do I work around the widespread understanding of
                "participation" in the liturgy meaning taking a ministry, especially a
                ministry that shows one's own talents, including creativity in
                constantly remaking the liturgy?

                It seems to me that settling on and repeatedly partaking of a ritual is
                elementary to liturgy, but the most influential people in our parish
                seem to want to constantly be doing something different, creative,
                contemporary, and invent new rituals or import them from Amerinds,
                Buddhists, Hindus, etc.

                Tom Poelker
                St. Louis, Missouri
                USA
                -- Maybe I don't
                deserve God's love,
                but I'm stuck with it,
                so I might as well
                make the most of it.



                James O'Regan wrote:
                >
                > This is exactly Guardini's long-held approach as well. One understands
                > liturgy, not by reading about it or studying it, rather by doing it.
                > Guardini uses the same two concepts in 1924 as 1964: Schauen and Tun,
                > usually translated as Seeing and Doing. In his famous letter of 1964,
                > he again restates that what one needs to learn is not how to read and
                > write but to learn how to Schauen.
                >
                > Schauen and Tun could have been Sehen and Machen, but they were not.
                > Schauen is to see something shown and Tun is to perform an action.
                > Both are strong statements of stimulus-response, so that as assembly,
                > for example, according to Guardini, the only way to experience liturgy
                > is via strong stimulation.
                >
                > All the best,
                >
                > James O'Regan
                > oregan@... <mailto:oregan%40jamesoregan.com>
                >
                > On 6-Apr-09, at 12:10 PM, <rwhite84@...
                > <mailto:rwhite84%40neo.rr.com>> <rwhite84@...
                > <mailto:rwhite84%40neo.rr.com>>
                > wrote:
                >
                > > Saterlee's conclusion:
                > >
                > > In our years of ministry together, the people of St. Timothy's and I
                > > had grown from needing to understand worship in order to participate
                > > in it to needing to participate in worship in order to understand
                > > it. The congregation also determined that participation means being
                > > actively involved. We learned this together: God taught us when we
                > > entered into Christian worship as a mystery and gave God the first
                > > word.
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To
                write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
                Groups Links





                **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or
                less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James O'Regan
                The fast answer is to employ, mutatis mutandis, the exact same protocols of a long Broadway run to liturgical speech. I m sure you know what to do. Other may
                Message 7 of 7 , Apr 6, 2009
                  The fast answer is to employ, mutatis mutandis, the exact same
                  protocols of a long Broadway run to liturgical speech. I'm sure you
                  know what to do. Other may await my research on the subject matter,
                  but if one is bored with repetition, then one has not yet opened the
                  door to seeing and doing. Since we are not getting new info every
                  Sunday per the books - liturgy is not the nine o'clock news (great UK
                  series) - there is place for enjoying the sound of the words we speak,
                  for in those sounds, God speaks.

                  All the best,

                  James O'Regan
                  oregan@...




                  On 6-Apr-09, at 4:45 PM, Tom Poelker wrote:

                  > However, how do I work around the widespread understanding of
                  > "participation" in the liturgy meaning taking a ministry, especially a
                  > ministry that shows one's own talents, including creativity in
                  > constantly remaking the liturgy?
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