Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [liturgy-l] Rehearsals!

Expand Messages
  • dlewisaao@aol.com
    Deconstructionism is pulling apart various essentials of the faith such as not being certain that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life ... questioning
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 6, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      "Deconstructionism" is pulling apart various essentials of the faith such as
      not being certain that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life ...
      questioning the essence of the atonement and the fact of the resurrection ...
      believing that basic Scriptural teachings do not apply in politically incorrect
      situations ... leaders getting into "comparative religions" rather than setting
      an example in terms of the apostolic faith. In such a climate, it is no
      wonder that the sheep go elsewhere to be fed - like to places where the faith is
      being taught in love, without apology or equivocation and with clear growth in
      the numbers of the faithful.

      David


      In a message dated 4/5/2009 11:06:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      lhwhitaker@... writes:

      It's not the forum, but you'll go right ahead and discuss it, eh?

      Just what do you mean by "deconstructionist?" That seems like an awfully
      loaded term. At least as loaded as "tearing the fabric" of the Anglican
      communion.

      Lew

      On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 11:02 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

      > I'm not certain that this is the appropriate list to discuss this, but Bp
      > Iker's diocese (which appears to be both Anglo-Catholic and Evangelical - I
      > know
      > him to be A/C) has left the Episcopal Church and is temporarily a part of
      > another Anglican province, i.e., the Southern Cone. It is probable that
      > this,
      > the other three Episcopal dioceses who have departed TEC and are
      > temporarily
      > affiliated with the Southern Cone Province and other Anglican-type bodies
      > will re-emerge collectively as the Anglican Church of North America and
      > are
      > already getting recognition from the larger provinces of the Anglican
      > Communion.
      >
      > "Tearing the fabric" of the Communion is the behavior of its existing
      > provinces in the US and Canada, which two comparatively small provinces
      > have
      > basically ignored or danced around the collective warnings and teachings of
      > the
      > Communion on a key Scriptural issue or two. This has resulted in parishes
      > and
      > dioceses in these two countries seeking alignment with other Anglican
      > provinces, including (inter alia) 15 parishes in the Diocese of Virginia
      > (in which I
      > live although I belong to a parish in DC) that have realigned accordingly.
      >
      > The whole thing is very sad and I am not on the theological wavelength of
      > either party, but the deconstructionist movement pushed the first buttons
      > and we
      > are seeing a reaction - quite predictable - from the other side of the
      > equation.
      >
      > David
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 4/5/2009 10:15:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      > lhwhitaker@... writes:
      >
      > Wouldn't you consider Bishop Jack Iker, now "tearing the fabric of the
      > Anglican Communion" that he purports to love so much by forming a separate
      > "Orthodox Province" to be an Anglo-Catholic?
      >
      > Lew
      >
      >
      > On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 9:42 PM, <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Most interesting - I read very little anywhere about Anglo-Catholic
      > > parishes, even being a member of a very successful one in DC. The
      > > attention seems to
      > > be on the antics of the "deconstructionist" wing of the Episcopal
      > Church
      > > overall and the reaction to said antics by the Evangelical wing, which
      > is
      > > where
      > > both the growth and the movement to other parts of the Anglican
      > Communion
      > > are
      > > taking place.
      > >
      > > David
      > >
      > >
      > > In a message dated 4/5/2009 8:19:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      > > lhwhitaker@... writes:
      > >
      > > I'd not heard of St. Luke's Evanston. But I googled them. Glad to know
      > > they're of the progressive wing of the Anglo-Catholic church, and not
      > the
      > > nasty reactionary wing that tends to get all of the press.
      > >
      > > Lew
      > >
      > > On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 7:30 PM, <cantor03@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > > I certainly agree that rehearsals are important, especially
      > > > for the great festivals of the church year. We had them
      > > >
      > > > regularly when I was serving as subdeacon at St. Paul's
      on-the-Hill,
      > > > St. Paul, Minnesota USA.
      > > >
      > > > Yet, I recall being just a little amused at witnessing a rehearsal
      > > > for Easter at that Anglocatholic bastion, St. Luke's, Evanston,
      > > > Illinois back in the 1960's. My ex-wife danced ballet
      > professionally,
      > > > and her rehearsals with the Minnesota [then Minneapolis Symphony]
      > > > Orchestra paled in comparison with the elaborate choreography
      > > > at St. Luke's, where every knee was trained to float down to the
      > > > pavement in synchrony, and each spoonful of incense seemed
      > > > timed and measured with precision.
      > > >
      > > > It was too bad I couldn't stay for the Easter Solemn High Mass
      > > > execution of this production.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > David Strang.
      > > > **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner
      > for
      > > $10
      > > > or
      > > > less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
      > > write to the moderators, please email:
      > > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
      > > write to the moderators, please email:
      > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
      > > Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for
      > $10
      > > or
      > > less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
      > write to the moderators, please email:
      > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
      > write to the moderators, please email:
      > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
      > Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10
      > or
      > less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
      write to the moderators, please email:
      > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      ------------------------------------

      Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/ To
      write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
      Groups Links





      **************Feeling the pinch at the grocery store? Make dinner for $10 or
      less. (http://food.aol.com/frugal-feasts?ncid=emlcntusfood00000001)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Morgan
      Since the Orthodox always do everything in the same manner we have always done since time began, we don t need rehearsals...Hah! Rdr. James
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 6, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Since the Orthodox always do everything in the same manner we have always done since time began, we don't need rehearsals...Hah!
        Rdr. James

        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:
        >
        > I nearly wept to see that on the e-news of the Church of the Redeemer, one
        > of our downtown Toronto parishes, not only were there scheduled Holy Week
        > rehearsals, but the clergy were required to attend!
        >
        > Does YOUR church have rehearsals? If it doesn't then, Liturgy-Well-Done is
        > beynd its grasp.
        >
        > Mine doesn't (sigh)
        >
        > Doug Cowling
        > Director of Music
        > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
        > Toronto
        >
      • PETER ROBINSON
        Yes, we have rehearsals before the major feasts, and some of it is even beginning to sink in! The worst difficulty I have is finding a time when I can get
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 6, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Yes, we have rehearsals before the major feasts, and some of it is even beginning to sink in! The worst difficulty I have is finding a time when I can get everyone together. The usual practice now is to meet an hour or an hour and a half before, say, the Maundy Thursday Mass and walk it through. One quirk of our shack is that we use the 1955 rubrics for Palm Sunday and the Easter Vigil, but the pre-1955 rubrics for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday.

          I am also producing a Customary because the standard directions have to be modified a little to work in our sanctuary. We have to take account of such factors as the sedilia being on the north side, the tabernacle not being the high altar, the ablutions being taken after the blessing and the Gloria being in the 1928 BCP position.

          +Peter

          The Right Rev. Peter D. Robinson
          Rector: St Paul's Anglican Church, Prescott, AZ, & Bishop-Suffragan UECNA
          http://www.prescott-anglican.org



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Douglas Cowling
          ... What is your rationale for not restoring the Gloria to its historic Catholic position? Doug Cowling Director of Music St. Philip s Church, Etobicoke
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 7, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            On 4/7/09 1:02 AM, "PETER ROBINSON" <frpeterdr@...> wrote:

            > We have to take account of such factors as the sedilia being on the north
            > side, the tabernacle not being the high altar, the ablutions being taken after
            > the blessing and the Gloria being in the 1928 BCP position.

            What is your rationale for not restoring the Gloria to its historic Catholic
            position?


            Doug Cowling
            Director of Music
            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
            Toronto
          • Lewis Whitaker
            And what is your rationale for using switching rubrics in mid Triduum? Lew ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 7, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              And what is your rationale for using switching rubrics in mid Triduum?

              Lew


              On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 1:02 AM, PETER ROBINSON <frpeterdr@...> wrote:

              > Yes, we have rehearsals before the major feasts, and some of it is even
              > beginning to sink in! The worst difficulty I have is finding a time when I
              > can get everyone together. The usual practice now is to meet an hour or an
              > hour and a half before, say, the Maundy Thursday Mass and walk it through.
              > One quirk of our shack is that we use the 1955 rubrics for Palm Sunday and
              > the Easter Vigil, but the pre-1955 rubrics for Maundy Thursday and Good
              > Friday.
              >
              > I am also producing a Customary because the standard directions have to be
              > modified a little to work in our sanctuary. We have to take account of such
              > factors as the sedilia being on the north side, the tabernacle not being the
              > high altar, the ablutions being taken after the blessing and the Gloria
              > being in the 1928 BCP position.
              >
              > +Peter
              >
              > The Right Rev. Peter D. Robinson
              > Rector: St Paul's Anglican Church, Prescott, AZ, & Bishop-Suffragan UECNA
              > http://www.prescott-anglican.org
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • PETER ROBINSON
              I was guilty of an unholy typo as we do the Easter Vigil is done according to the four lesson version of the Traditional Rite given in the American Missal. We
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 8, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                I was guilty of an unholy typo as we do the Easter Vigil is done according to the four lesson version of the Traditional Rite given in the American Missal. We do use the 1955 rubrics for Palm Sunday, as there is a general feeling that to do the unreformed Rite would make the Sung Mass too long.

                The Pre-1955 rubrics are use for the Triduum as the Missals that we use - the American Missal and the Anglican Missal (American Edition) do not contain the revised Holy Week. I have considered using the Tridum as given in the 1958 English Missal, but frankly the Good Friday service as revised under Pius XII is a bit of a donkey's breakfast.

                The Right Rev. Peter D. Robinson
                Rector: St Paul's Anglican Church, Prescott, AZ, & Bishop-Suffragan UECNA
                http://www.prescott-anglican.org



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lewis Whitaker
                OK, I googled donkey s breakfast but don t have a clue about what this has to do with the Good Friday service. What is wrong with the Pius XII Good Friday
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 8, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  OK, I googled "donkey's breakfast" but don't have a clue about what this has
                  to do with the Good Friday service. What is wrong with the Pius XII Good
                  Friday service?

                  Lew

                  On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:15 PM, PETER ROBINSON <frpeterdr@...> wrote:

                  > I was guilty of an unholy typo as we do the Easter Vigil is done according
                  > to the four lesson version of the Traditional Rite given in the American
                  > Missal. We do use the 1955 rubrics for Palm Sunday, as there is a general
                  > feeling that to do the unreformed Rite would make the Sung Mass too long.
                  >
                  > The Pre-1955 rubrics are use for the Triduum as the Missals that we use -
                  > the American Missal and the Anglican Missal (American Edition) do not
                  > contain the revised Holy Week. I have considered using the Tridum as given
                  > in the 1958 English Missal, but frankly the Good Friday service as revised
                  > under Pius XII is a bit of a donkey's breakfast.
                  >
                  > The Right Rev. Peter D. Robinson
                  > Rector: St Paul's Anglican Church, Prescott, AZ, & Bishop-Suffragan UECNA
                  > http://www.prescott-anglican.org
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the moderators, please email:
                  > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • PETER ROBINSON
                  OK, let me begin by saying what I think they got right in the Pius XII Good Friday service. Firstly, it restored the ancient practice of holding the service
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 9, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    OK, let me begin by saying what I think they got right in the Pius XII Good Friday service. Firstly, it restored the ancient practice of holding the service in the afternoon - or should that be after None? Secondly, they made the pastorally sensible move of allowing the communion of the laity. John XXIII, and Benedict XVI's revisions of the Prayer for the Jews were also steps in the right direction.

                    Now for the things that seem to have no logial justification.

                    Firstly, the addition of the opening and closing prayers rather fudges the one liturgy in three parts feel to the traditional Triduum.

                    Secondly, there is an awful lot of faffing around with vestments. We usually run on celebrant plus three or four servers here. The 1956 version requires me to vest in alb and stole, then add the cope, remove the cope and then finally change from black to purple Mass vestments for the administration of Communion. The old rite was chasuble on, chasuble off, chasuble on - or something like that.

                    Thirdly, the redesign of the old Mass of the Presanctified into a Communion Rite was probably more vandalism than restoration considering that the old form was used from at least the time of Gregory VII.

                    Yours,
                    +Peter

                    The Right Rev. Peter D. Robinson
                    Rector: St Paul's Anglican Church, Prescott, AZ, & Bishop-Suffragan UECNA
                    http://www.prescott-anglican.org



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.