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Re: [liturgy-l] Singers and Oscars

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  • Tom Poelker
    So why won t they sing for the microphones? People seem to either feel they need to get within an inch, like many Oscar recipients, or they are afraid of
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 5, 2009
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      So why won't they sing for the microphones?

      People seem to either feel they need to get within an inch, like many
      Oscar recipients, or they are afraid of microphones and won't get within
      the 12 to 18 inches a cardioid mic needs to be effective.
      *

      Tom Poelker
      St. Louis. Missouri
      USA

      /-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
      It?s nice to see people smile,
      and it?s good practice. --/

      *


      Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
      >
      > Tom Poelker wrote:
      >
      > > Why is it [and is it only among RCs?] that so many people who
      > > voluntarily sing to others in church do not sing loud enough to be
      > > easily heard?
      >
      > Because they have not been trained to do so. Amplification and sound
      > systems have been so pervasive for so long, that there has been no need
      > to educate people to speak in a manner that they can be heard without
      > microphones and amplifiers.
      >
      > > WHY DO THESE PEOPLE CHOOSE TO SING FOR THE CONGREGATION THEN SING SO
      > > TIMIDLY?
      >
      > They've never been taught to do it correctly.
      >
      > > Is there inexpensive written material which one who is not qualified to
      > > lead music [can't even read music] can share with such people to give
      > > them some indication as to what they should be striving to do?
      >
      > Perhaps, but in my view it would be of limited utility. Better to spend
      > the money on a vocal coach.
      >
      > ns
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ormonde Plater
      The booklet The Cantor by Associated Parishes is now available online at http://www.associatedparishes.org/brochures/thecantor.htm. Ormonde Plater From:
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 6, 2009
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        The booklet "The Cantor" by Associated Parishes is now available online at
        http://www.associatedparishes.org/brochures/thecantor.htm.

        Ormonde Plater



        From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Tom Poelker
        Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 7:57 PM
        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [liturgy-l] Singers and Oscars

        Is there inexpensive written material which one who is not qualified to
        lead music [can't even read music] can share with such people to give
        them some indication as to what they should be striving to do?





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • cantor03@aol.com
        I have more than 50 years of service as an Anglican cantor, and 25? years as cantor in the Roman Catholic Church.? I ve retired from all of it now because I
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 6, 2009
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          I have more than 50 years of service as an Anglican cantor, and
          25? years as cantor in the Roman Catholic Church.? I've retired
          from all of it now because I can't stand for the long periods required,
          especially in the function of a cantor in the RCC.

          The functions of cantor have some overlapping in the two denominations,
          but are mostly very different.

          At least in my Anglican experience, a cantor serves as a fourth musical
          resource along with the clergy, choir, and instruments [organ, etc.].
          A problem for cantors in TEC, at least, is that they are viewed with
          suspicion by choirs, who equate cantors incorrectly with vocal soloists.
          Unfortunately, many Anglican choral directors have the same problem
          differentiating between a cantor leading/proclaiming the Psalm and
          a soloist singing, say, an aria from "Messiah."

          In the RC setting, I was trained to view several functions for cantor:
          (1) Leader of Song - to lead [not dominate!] the singing of hymns and
          the Ordinary.? (2) Animateur:? To encourage congregations to sing
          better and with more energy.? (3) Teacher:? To help congregations learn
          new congregational music.? (4) Proclaimer of the Responsorial Psalm.

          I agree that a cantor is only as helpful as he/she is trained to be for
          all these duties, and a vocal coach who is also well acquainted with
          the Liturgy is essential.

          Although there may be resources for reading about being a cantor,
          there is nothing like having a coach who knows what they are doing,
          and knows well the duties of cantor.


          David Strang.



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ormonde Plater <oplater@...>
          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 7:17 am
          Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Singers and Oscars






          The booklet "The Cantor" by Associated Parishes is now available online at
          http://www.associatedparishes.org/brochures/thecantor.htm.

          Ormonde Plater

          From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Tom Poelker
          Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 7:57 PM
          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [liturgy-l] Singers and Oscars

          Is there inexpensive written material which one who is not qualified to
          lead music [can't even read music] can share with such people to give
          them some indication as to what they should be striving to do?

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Douglas Cowling
          ... John Bell always says that you should use an average voice who can sing naturally with good intonation and rhythm and who doesn t need to be amplified.
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 6, 2009
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            On 3/6/09 10:11 AM, "cantor03@..." <cantor03@...> wrote:

            > A problem for cantors in TEC, at least, is that they are viewed with
            > suspicion by choirs, who equate cantors incorrectly with vocal soloists.
            > Unfortunately, many Anglican choral directors have the same problem
            > differentiating between a cantor leading/proclaiming the Psalm and
            > a soloist singing, say, an aria from "Messiah

            John Bell always says that you should use an average voice who can sing
            naturally with good intonation and rhythm and who doesn't need to be
            amplified. That's a voice people can recognize and match in their own
            singing. The intensity and vibrato of most "developed" voices cannot be
            matched by Joe PewDweller. I can't abide plainsong or Gelineau being
            rendered by a SOLOIST. One of the most egregious examples I have ever seen
            was a "cantor" at the midnight mass from St. Patrick;s, NYC. She sang a
            very simple psalm verse like it was Tosca. AND she was dressed to the nines
            and made up like a real diva, mugging the camera with 'sad' and 'happy'
            faces depending on the text. I switched over to the sea mammals in the
            Sistine Choir.


            Doug Cowling
            Director of Music
            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
            Toronto
          • Tom Poelker
            what does sea mammals in the Sistine choir mean? * Tom Poelker St. Louis. Missouri USA /-- Do all the easy nice things you can. It?s nice to see people
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 6, 2009
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              what does "sea mammals in the Sistine choir" mean?

              *

              Tom Poelker
              St. Louis. Missouri
              USA

              /-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
              It?s nice to see people smile,
              and it?s good practice. --/

              *


              Douglas Cowling wrote:
              >
              > On 3/6/09 10:11 AM, "cantor03@... <mailto:cantor03%40aol.com>"
              > <cantor03@... <mailto:cantor03%40aol.com>> wrote:
              >
              > > A problem for cantors in TEC, at least, is that they are viewed with
              > > suspicion by choirs, who equate cantors incorrectly with vocal soloists.
              > > Unfortunately, many Anglican choral directors have the same problem
              > > differentiating between a cantor leading/proclaiming the Psalm and
              > > a soloist singing, say, an aria from "Messiah
              >
              > John Bell always says that you should use an average voice who can sing
              > naturally with good intonation and rhythm and who doesn't need to be
              > amplified. That's a voice people can recognize and match in their own
              > singing. The intensity and vibrato of most "developed" voices cannot be
              > matched by Joe PewDweller. I can't abide plainsong or Gelineau being
              > rendered by a SOLOIST. One of the most egregious examples I have ever seen
              > was a "cantor" at the midnight mass from St. Patrick;s, NYC. She sang a
              > very simple psalm verse like it was Tosca. AND she was dressed to the
              > nines
              > and made up like a real diva, mugging the camera with 'sad' and 'happy'
              > faces depending on the text. I switched over to the sea mammals in the
              > Sistine Choir.
              >
              > Doug Cowling
              > Director of Music
              > St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
              > Toronto
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Douglas Cowling
              ... Actually, the sea lions sing more rhythmically than i Sistiniani! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds6Qcrf_Gks Doug Cowling Director of Music St. Philip s
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 6, 2009
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                On 3/6/09 8:51 PM, "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@...> wrote:

                > what does "sea mammals in the Sistine choir" mean?

                Actually, the sea lions sing more rhythmically than i Sistiniani!

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds6Qcrf_Gks


                Doug Cowling
                Director of Music
                St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                Toronto
              • paulweary
                ... John Wesley s Rules for Singing (1761) 1. Sing all. See that you join with the congregation as frequently as you can. Let not a slight degree of weakness
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 7, 2009
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                  --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Is there inexpensive written material which one who is not qualified to
                  > lead music [can't even read music] can share with such people to give
                  > them some indication as to what they should be striving to do?

                  John Wesley's Rules for Singing (1761)

                  1. Sing all. See that you join with the congregation as frequently as you can. Let not a slight degree of weakness or weariness hinder you. If it is a cross to you, take it up and you will find a blessing.

                  2. Sing lustily, and with a good courage. Beware of singing as if you were half dead, or half asleep; but lift up your voice with strength. Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of it being heard, then when you sing the songs of Satan.

                  3. Sing modestly. Do not bawl, as to be heard above, or distinct from, the rest of the congregation, that you may not destroy the harmony; but strive to unite your voices together, so as to make one clear melodious sound.

                  4. Sing in time. Whatever time is sung, be sure to keep with it. Do not run before, not stay behind it; but attend closely to the leading voices, and move therewith as exactly as you can. And take care you sing not too slow. This drawling way naturally steals on all who are lazy; and it is high time to drive it out from among us, and sing all our tunes just as quick as we did at first.

                  5. Above all, sing spiritually. Have an eye to God in every word you sing. Aim at pleasing Him more than yourself, or any other creature. In order to do this, attend strictly to the sense of what you sing, and see that your heart is not carried away with the sound, but offered to God continually; so shall your singing be such as the Lord will approve of here, and reward when he cometh in the clouds of heaven.

                  Shalom,

                  --
                  Paul Weary
                  Islington UK
                • James O'Regan
                  May we have the reference please? All the best, James O Regan oregan@jamesoregan.com
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 7, 2009
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                    May we have the reference please?

                    All the best,

                    James O'Regan
                    oregan@...




                    On 7-Mar-09, at 7:34 AM, paulweary wrote:

                    > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Is there inexpensive written material which one who is not
                    >> qualified to
                    >> lead music [can't even read music] can share with such people to give
                    >> them some indication as to what they should be striving to do?
                    >
                    > John Wesley's Rules for Singing (1761)
                    >
                    > 1. Sing all. See that you join with the congregation as frequently
                    > as you can. Let not a slight degree of weakness or weariness hinder
                    > you. If it is a cross to you, take it up and you will find a blessing.
                    >
                    > 2. Sing lustily, and with a good courage. Beware of singing as if
                    > you were half dead, or half asleep; but lift up your voice with
                    > strength. Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of
                    > it being heard, then when you sing the songs of Satan.
                    >
                    > 3. Sing modestly. Do not bawl, as to be heard above, or distinct
                    > from, the rest of the congregation, that you may not destroy the
                    > harmony; but strive to unite your voices together, so as to make one
                    > clear melodious sound.
                    >
                    > 4. Sing in time. Whatever time is sung, be sure to keep with it. Do
                    > not run before, not stay behind it; but attend closely to the
                    > leading voices, and move therewith as exactly as you can. And take
                    > care you sing not too slow. This drawling way naturally steals on
                    > all who are lazy; and it is high time to drive it out from among us,
                    > and sing all our tunes just as quick as we did at first.
                    >
                    > 5. Above all, sing spiritually. Have an eye to God in every word you
                    > sing. Aim at pleasing Him more than yourself, or any other creature.
                    > In order to do this, attend strictly to the sense of what you sing,
                    > and see that your heart is not carried away with the sound, but
                    > offered to God continually; so shall your singing be such as the
                    > Lord will approve of here, and reward when he cometh in the clouds
                    > of heaven.
                    >
                    > Shalom,
                    >
                    > --
                    > Paul Weary
                    > Islington UK
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                    > To write to the moderators, please email: liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo
                    > ! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Tom Poelker
                    wonderful Wesley quote would you please offer the complete citation for those of us who know nothing of his except some hymns * Tom Poelker St. Louis. Missouri
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 7, 2009
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                      wonderful Wesley quote
                      would you please offer the complete citation for those of us who know
                      nothing of his except some hymns
                      *

                      Tom Poelker
                      St. Louis. Missouri
                      USA

                      /-- Do all the easy nice things you can.
                      It?s nice to see people smile,
                      and it?s good practice. --/

                      *


                      paulweary wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Is there inexpensive written material which one who is not qualified to
                      > > lead music [can't even read music] can share with such people to give
                      > > them some indication as to what they should be striving to do?
                      >
                      > John Wesley's Rules for Singing (1761)
                      >
                      > 1. Sing all. See that you join with the congregation as frequently as
                      > you can. Let not a slight degree of weakness or weariness hinder you.
                      > If it is a cross to you, take it up and you will find a blessing.
                      >
                      > 2. Sing lustily, and with a good courage. Beware of singing as if you
                      > were half dead, or half asleep; but lift up your voice with strength.
                      > Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of it being
                      > heard, then when you sing the songs of Satan.
                      >
                      > 3. Sing modestly. Do not bawl, as to be heard above, or distinct from,
                      > the rest of the congregation, that you may not destroy the harmony;
                      > but strive to unite your voices together, so as to make one clear
                      > melodious sound.
                      >
                      > 4. Sing in time. Whatever time is sung, be sure to keep with it. Do
                      > not run before, not stay behind it; but attend closely to the leading
                      > voices, and move therewith as exactly as you can. And take care you
                      > sing not too slow. This drawling way naturally steals on all who are
                      > lazy; and it is high time to drive it out from among us, and sing all
                      > our tunes just as quick as we did at first.
                      >
                      > 5. Above all, sing spiritually. Have an eye to God in every word you
                      > sing. Aim at pleasing Him more than yourself, or any other creature.
                      > In order to do this, attend strictly to the sense of what you sing,
                      > and see that your heart is not carried away with the sound, but
                      > offered to God continually; so shall your singing be such as the Lord
                      > will approve of here, and reward when he cometh in the clouds of heaven.
                      >
                      > Shalom,
                      >
                      > --
                      > Paul Weary
                      > Islington UK
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Michael Thannisch
                      I think that is hard to beat.  Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach   +Michael Joe Thannisch mjthannisch@sbcglobal.net Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 7, 2009
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                        I think that is hard to beat. 


                        Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach
                         
                        +Michael Joe Thannisch
                        mjthannisch@...
                        Pastor, Congregation Benim Avraham
                        http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/
                        http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Joe-Thannisch/1173094868
                        204 Sylvan St.
                        La Porte, TX 77571
                        281-867-9081

                        --- On Sat, 3/7/09, paulweary <paulweary@...> wrote:

                        From: paulweary <paulweary@...>
                        Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: Singers and Oscars
                        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 6:34 AM






                        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogrou ps.com, Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Is there inexpensive written material which one who is not qualified to
                        > lead music [can't even read music] can share with such people to give
                        > them some indication as to what they should be striving to do?

                        John Wesley's Rules for Singing (1761)

                        1. Sing all. See that you join with the congregation as frequently as you can. Let not a slight degree of weakness or weariness hinder you. If it is a cross to you, take it up and you will find a blessing.

                        2. Sing lustily, and with a good courage. Beware of singing as if you were half dead, or half asleep; but lift up your voice with strength. Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of it being heard, then when you sing the songs of Satan.

                        3. Sing modestly. Do not bawl, as to be heard above, or distinct from, the rest of the congregation, that you may not destroy the harmony; but strive to unite your voices together, so as to make one clear melodious sound.

                        4. Sing in time. Whatever time is sung, be sure to keep with it. Do not run before, not stay behind it; but attend closely to the leading voices, and move therewith as exactly as you can. And take care you sing not too slow. This drawling way naturally steals on all who are lazy; and it is high time to drive it out from among us, and sing all our tunes just as quick as we did at first.

                        5. Above all, sing spiritually. Have an eye to God in every word you sing. Aim at pleasing Him more than yourself, or any other creature. In order to do this, attend strictly to the sense of what you sing, and see that your heart is not carried away with the sound, but offered to God continually; so shall your singing be such as the Lord will approve of here, and reward when he cometh in the clouds of heaven.

                        Shalom,

                        --
                        Paul Weary
                        Islington UK
















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