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Alb question

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  • WRVinovskis@cs.com
    Congratulations to Art on your ordination. Hallelu-jah! I also am in the process of making a move. I am moving from the West coast to the East cost. I will be
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 29, 2001
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      Congratulations to Art on your ordination. Hallelu-jah! I also am in the
      process of making a move. I am moving from the West coast to the East cost.
      I will be installed as pastor of Concordia Lutheran Church in Macungie, PA
      (rural/suburban Allentown) on February 4th. I would imagine that I am in
      much closer proximity to many on this list than I was before. Perhaps our
      paths will be more likely to cross here or there in the future.

      I have a relatively simple question, yet one to which I do not know the
      answer. In my former congregation, the acolytes wore black cassocks with
      white cottas. Here in the my congregation, the acolytes wear albs with a red
      cincture. Can anyone on the list help me with the color thing? Is there any
      significance to the red cincture (or the red cassocks) that the acolytes
      wear? Thank you for your help on this.

      Pr. Waldemar R. Vinovskis
      Zion Lutheran Church
      Piedmont, CA

      <WRVinovskis@...>



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Dornheim
      ... I can only speculate. At this congregation, the acolytes wear cinctures according to the color of the season/day. They might wear a red cinctures regularly
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 29, 2001
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        WRVinovskis@... wrote:

        > I have a relatively simple question, yet one to which I do not know the
        > answer. In my former congregation, the acolytes wore black cassocks with
        > white cottas. Here in the my congregation, the acolytes wear albs with a red
        > cincture. Can anyone on the list help me with the color thing? Is there any
        > significance to the red cincture (or the red cassocks) that the acolytes
        > wear? Thank you for your help on this.
        >

        I can only speculate. At this congregation, the acolytes wear cinctures
        according to the color of the season/day. They might wear a red cinctures
        regularly if there is an Order of St. John Acolyte in operation.
        A red cassock seems to have been favored here as a children's choir robe.
        John Dornheim
      • Daniel Karlsson
        ... Red is nice. It could also be a way to distinguish between more permanent orders and the teen-age office of acolytes (if such a distinction is wanted).
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 29, 2001
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          > WRVinovskis@... wrote:
          > > I have a relatively simple question, yet one to which I do not know the
          > > answer. In my former congregation, the acolytes wore black cassocks with
          > > white cottas. Here in the my congregation, the acolytes wear albs with a
          > > red
          > > cincture. Can anyone on the list help me with the color thing? Is there
          > > any
          > > significance to the red cincture (or the red cassocks) that the acolytes
          > > wear? Thank you for your help on this.

          Red is nice. It could also be a way to distinguish between more permanent
          "orders" and the teen-age office of acolytes (if such a distinction is wanted).
          As far as I have seen so is it usually young people who's got the red or
          colored cassocks. Red is also a color associated with sacred space in religion,
          as for tabernacles etc. It is a color of presence and energy, sacrifice and
          life. Black is a more grown-up and mature color associated with office and
          solemnity, joyful as well as serious. Blue would of course also be possible,
          some places they have that, sometimes as choir dress. In Sweden though,
          acolytes is a rare thing in the first place, so we usually use the confirmands
          white robes. In my opinion, though, color is one of creations many gifts we
          often tend to ignore in worship, so I would certainly go for red if I could.

          Daniel Karlsson
        • Pastor Robert White
          ... Somebody on the altar guild liked the color? Bob + + + + + + + + + + + The Christian Faith has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 29, 2001
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            On 29 Jan 2001, at 12:10, WRVinovskis@... wrote:

            > Is there any significance to the red cincture (or the red cassocks)
            > that the acolytes wear?

            Somebody on the altar guild liked the color?

            Bob


            + + + + + + + + + + +
            The Christian Faith has not been tried and found wanting.
            It has been found difficult and left untried.
            -----G. K. Chesterton

            Pastor Robert White
            Christ the Redeemer Lutheran Church (ELCA)
            863 Silliman Ave.
            Erie, PA USA 16511-2060
            814-899-3264
            email: xrredeem@...
          • Krister Ulmanis
            ... A Pentecostal in Lutheran clothing? Krister
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 29, 2001
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              >On 29 Jan 2001, at 12:10, WRVinovskis@... wrote:
              >
              >> Is there any significance to the red cincture (or the red cassocks)
              >> that the acolytes wear?
              >
              >Somebody on the altar guild liked the color?
              >
              >Bob
              >
              >
              A Pentecostal in Lutheran clothing?
              Krister
            • WRVinovskis@cs.com
              In a message dated 1/29/01 11:08:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Either that, or the red ropes were on sale at the local vestment supply house. ;-) Wally Pr.
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 30, 2001
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                In a message dated 1/29/01 11:08:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                xrredeem@... writes:

                >
                > On 29 Jan 2001, at 12:10, WRVinovskis@... wrote:
                >
                > > Is there any significance to the red cincture (or the red cassocks)
                > > that the acolytes wear?
                >
                > Somebody on the altar guild liked the color?
                >
                > Bob
                >

                Either that, or the red ropes were on sale at the local vestment supply
                house. ;-)

                Wally


                Pr. Waldemar R. Vinovskis
                Zion Lutheran Church
                Piedmont, CA

                <WRVinovskis@...>



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • William Renwick
                Since we are discussing albs, I would appreciate any Theoretical background regarding the use of alb versus cassock and surplice for an Anglican Choir in a
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 30, 2001
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                  Since we are discussing albs, I would appreciate any "Theoretical
                  background" regarding the use of alb versus cassock and surplice for an
                  Anglican Choir in a relatively high liturgical setting.

                  We have albs at the moment, which were purchased in the 1970's,
                  as a replacement and updating of the traditional black and white cassock
                  and surplice--perhaps an ecumenical move and a bringing to
                  prominence of the eucharist over the office at the time.
                  Now the albs are wearing out and we are trying to
                  make a "rational" decision as to what sort of replacement would be best.

                  By the way, our current albs, known to some members as "sackcloth" are an
                  off-white color, and are finished with color-coded cinctures.

                  Any assistance or speculation--or stories--would be appreciated.

                  thanks

                  William Renwick School of Art, Drama, and Music, McMaster University
                  #############Hamilton Ontario CANADA L8S 4M2#######
                  http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~renwick/wr.htm
                • Scott Knitter
                  ... Personally, I think the alb works best as a base garment for the ministers in the chancel at Eucharist. To the alb is added stole and chasuble for
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 30, 2001
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                    At 11.47 am 01/30/2001 -0500, William Renwick wrote:
                    >Since we are discussing albs, I would appreciate any "Theoretical
                    >background" regarding the use of alb versus cassock and surplice for an
                    >Anglican Choir in a relatively high liturgical setting.

                    Personally, I think the alb works best as a base garment for the ministers
                    in the chancel at Eucharist. To the alb is added stole and chasuble for
                    celebrant, stole and perhaps dalmatic for deacon, etc. I think choirs look
                    best (and most Anglican) in cassock and surplice: much more flattering to
                    various figures, connected to tradition, etc. Our choir recently received
                    a generous gift to enable us to replace our wearing-out blue cassocks and
                    white cottas with new burgundy cassocks and white surplices (longer than
                    cottas). I would have voted for black cassocks, had there been a vote, but
                    the committee who decided on these things considered everything carefully
                    and came up with choices that turned out very nice.

                    So I vote for cassock/surplice for choirs and for
                    acolytes/thurifers/crucifers, with albs for participating clergy and lay
                    eucharistic ministers.
                  • John Dornheim
                    ... Do the clergy and lay Eucharistic ministers wear their cassocks under their albs? John Dornheim
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 30, 2001
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                      Scott Knitter wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > Personally, I think the alb works best as a base garment for the ministers
                      > in the chancel at Eucharist. To the alb is added stole and chasuble for
                      > celebrant, stole and perhaps dalmatic for deacon, etc. I think choirs look
                      > best (and most Anglican) in cassock and surplice: much more flattering to
                      > various figures, connected to tradition, etc. Our choir recently received
                      > a generous gift to enable us to replace our wearing-out blue cassocks and
                      > white cottas with new burgundy cassocks and white surplices (longer than
                      > cottas). I would have voted for black cassocks, had there been a vote, but
                      > the committee who decided on these things considered everything carefully
                      > and came up with choices that turned out very nice.
                      >
                      > So I vote for cassock/surplice for choirs and for
                      > acolytes/thurifers/crucifers, with albs for participating clergy and lay
                      > eucharistic ministers.
                      >
                      >

                      Do the clergy and lay Eucharistic ministers wear their cassocks under their
                      albs?

                      John Dornheim
                    • Scott Knitter
                      ... Nope...those with albs would wear them instead of cassock/surplice.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 30, 2001
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                        At 01.18 pm 01/30/2001 -0500, John Dornheim wrote:
                        > > So I vote for cassock/surplice for choirs and for
                        > > acolytes/thurifers/crucifers, with albs for participating clergy and lay
                        > > eucharistic ministers.
                        >
                        >Do the clergy and lay Eucharistic ministers wear their cassocks under their
                        >albs?


                        Nope...those with albs would wear them instead of cassock/surplice.
                      • Ben Baldus
                        To absolutely correct, one should consider the cassock to be ecclesiastical underwear. Therefore the one should wear cassock, under the alb and then add the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 30, 2001
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                          To absolutely correct, one should consider the cassock to be ecclesiastical
                          underwear. Therefore the one should wear cassock, under the alb and then add the
                          remaining garb according to one's office.

                          Ben Baldus

                          John Dornheim wrote:

                          > Scott Knitter wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Personally, I think the alb works best as a base garment for the ministers
                          > > in the chancel at Eucharist. To the alb is added stole and chasuble for
                          > > celebrant, stole and perhaps dalmatic for deacon, etc. I think choirs look
                          > > best (and most Anglican) in cassock and surplice: much more flattering to
                          > > various figures, connected to tradition, etc. Our choir recently received
                          > > a generous gift to enable us to replace our wearing-out blue cassocks and
                          > > white cottas with new burgundy cassocks and white surplices (longer than
                          > > cottas). I would have voted for black cassocks, had there been a vote, but
                          > > the committee who decided on these things considered everything carefully
                          > > and came up with choices that turned out very nice.
                          > >
                          > > So I vote for cassock/surplice for choirs and for
                          > > acolytes/thurifers/crucifers, with albs for participating clergy and lay
                          > > eucharistic ministers.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > Do the clergy and lay Eucharistic ministers wear their cassocks under their
                          > albs?
                          >
                          > John Dornheim
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > liturgy-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        • Robert J. Riley
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 30, 2001
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                            <<<
                            To absolutely correct, one should consider the cassock to be ecclesiastical
                            underwear.
                            >>>

                            Well, maybe *liturgical* underwear. I should hardly think that a priest
                            dressed in his cassock, outside the time for liturgy, is in his underwear!
                            Quite the opposite. The cassock is really just a conservative holding on to
                            (and formalized adaptation of) a medieval form of dress that preceded pants
                            (and modern dresses). Formal religious dress, whether liturgical or
                            extraliturgical, tends to be conservative -- just as religious language
                            tends to be conservative or even archaic. (As far as language, this was
                            true even in the Roman pagan relgion, for example. Today, preference for
                            1928 Prayer Book language etc. is a modern example -- this is not said in
                            criticism, only as an observation, and it is not intended as a complete
                            explanation.)

                            When I first saw priests saying Mass without a chasuble, i.e., in alb,
                            stole, and cincture, with alb providing the dominant visual effect, I
                            thought *that* was saying Mass in liturgical underwear.

                            Sincerely,
                            Robert J. Riley
                            mailto:rriley@...

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Ben Baldus [mailto:bbaldus@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 12:51 PM
                            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Alb question


                            To absolutely correct, one should consider the cassock to be ecclesiastical
                            underwear. Therefore the one should wear cassock, under the alb and then
                            add the
                            remaining garb according to one's office.

                            Ben Baldus

                            John Dornheim wrote:

                            > Scott Knitter wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Personally, I think the alb works best as a base garment for the
                            ministers
                            > > in the chancel at Eucharist. To the alb is added stole and chasuble for
                            > > celebrant, stole and perhaps dalmatic for deacon, etc. I think choirs
                            look
                            > > best (and most Anglican) in cassock and surplice: much more flattering
                            to
                            > > various figures, connected to tradition, etc. Our choir recently
                            received
                            > > a generous gift to enable us to replace our wearing-out blue cassocks
                            and
                            > > white cottas with new burgundy cassocks and white surplices (longer than
                            > > cottas). I would have voted for black cassocks, had there been a vote,
                            but
                            > > the committee who decided on these things considered everything
                            carefully
                            > > and came up with choices that turned out very nice.
                            > >
                            > > So I vote for cassock/surplice for choirs and for
                            > > acolytes/thurifers/crucifers, with albs for participating clergy and lay
                            > > eucharistic ministers.
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > Do the clergy and lay Eucharistic ministers wear their cassocks under
                            their
                            > albs?
                            >
                            > John Dornheim
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > liturgy-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com


                            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            liturgy-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          • Daniel Karlsson
                            Från: Robert J. Riley [SMTP:rriley@kc.rr.com] ... Yes, and what is wrong with that? We need reminders that our time is not an absolute . Of course, medieval
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 30, 2001
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                              Från: Robert J. Riley [SMTP:rriley@...]

                              >The cassock is really just a conservative holding on to
                              >(and formalized adaptation of) a medieval form of dress that preceded pants
                              >(and modern dresses). Formal religious dress, whether liturgical or
                              >extraliturgical, tends to be conservative -- just as religious language
                              >tends to be conservative or even archaic.

                              Yes, and what is wrong with that? We need reminders that our time is not an
                              "absolute". Of course, medieval fashion and values are not either. Inspiration
                              could just as well come from Star Trek, if that would be the case. Too many
                              pastors look just like members of the local Rotary Club. As its best,
                              liturgical clothing function as a reminder of human limitedness, as amnesia and
                              as doxology, maybe even as epiclesis. (the aspect of tradition would then fall
                              into the category of amnesia).

                              Daniel Karlsson
                            • John Dornheim
                              ... Maybe it s more like a slip... John Dornheim
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                "Robert J. Riley" wrote:

                                > <<<
                                > To absolutely correct, one should consider the cassock to be ecclesiastical
                                > underwear.
                                > >>>
                                >
                                > Well, maybe *liturgical* underwear. I should hardly think that a priest
                                > dressed in his cassock, outside the time for liturgy, is in his underwear!
                                > Quite the opposite.

                                Maybe it's more like a slip...

                                John Dornheim
                              • Dave Hedges
                                ... It seems to me that choirs would be most properly vested in cassock and surplice, because they are not Eucharistic ministers. Of course, this is coming
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 30, 2001
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                                  On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, William Renwick wrote:

                                  > Since we are discussing albs, I would appreciate any "Theoretical
                                  > background" regarding the use of alb versus cassock and surplice for an
                                  > Anglican Choir in a relatively high liturgical setting.
                                  >
                                  > Any assistance or speculation--or stories--would be appreciated.

                                  It seems to me that choirs would be most properly vested in cassock and
                                  surplice, because they are not Eucharistic ministers.

                                  Of course, this is coming from a man who attends a church where the choir
                                  wear albs and the Lay Eucharistic Ministers wear cassock & surplice! It
                                  looks nice either way, I suppose. It seems to me that in every Cathedral
                                  service I have seen (cathedrals having among their duties setting an
                                  example for liturgical practice) the choir wore cassocks and surplices.

                                  Regarding red cassocks on young choristers (someone was talking about this
                                  earlier), while red is frequently used in that way in the US, in England
                                  red cassocks are used in Royal Peculiars, that is, churches under the
                                  direct purview of the crown, not affiliated with any diocese.

                                  =========================================================
                                  Dave Hedges dhedges@... Student of History
                                  Berkeley, California San Francisco State University
                                  ** http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~dhedges/ **
                                • Ormonde Plater
                                  It seems to me that the main reason for choir and servers to dress, whether in cassock and surplice/cotta or in alb, is that they like to dress up and the
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                    It seems to me that the main reason for choir and servers to dress, whether
                                    in cassock and surplice/cotta or in alb, is that they like to dress up and
                                    the people like to see them dress up. It's part of the dressiness or
                                    celebratory costuming we expect in liturgy, our wearing garments suitably
                                    festal for a wedding. I only question them when their garments look drab,
                                    dirty, or shoddy. The main question is why everyone else in our culture is
                                    dressing down these days.

                                    Ormonde Plater
                                    oplater@...
                                  • rriley@kc.rr.com
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                      <<<
                                      The main question is why everyone else in our culture is dressing
                                      down these days.
                                      >>>

                                      The answer is simple. Cars. Everyone is in his car. There is no
                                      visible public anymore. So why bother to dress up?

                                      Sincerely,
                                      Robert J. Riley
                                      mailto:rriley@...

                                      --- In liturgy-l@y..., "Ormonde Plater" <oplater@h...> wrote:
                                      > It seems to me that the main reason for choir and servers to dress,
                                      whether
                                      > in cassock and surplice/cotta or in alb, is that they like to dress
                                      up and
                                      > the people like to see them dress up. It's part of the dressiness or
                                      > celebratory costuming we expect in liturgy, our wearing garments
                                      suitably
                                      > festal for a wedding. I only question them when their garments look
                                      drab,
                                      > dirty, or shoddy. The main question is why everyone else in our
                                      culture is
                                      > dressing down these days.
                                      >
                                      > Ormonde Plater
                                      > oplater@h...
                                    • fcsenn@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 1/29/01 11:21:19 AM Central Standard Time, WRVinovskis@cs.com writes:
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                        In a message dated 1/29/01 11:21:19 AM Central Standard Time,
                                        WRVinovskis@... writes:

                                        <<
                                        I have a relatively simple question, yet one to which I do not know the
                                        answer. In my former congregation, the acolytes wore black cassocks with
                                        white cottas. Here in the my congregation, the acolytes wear albs with a
                                        red
                                        cincture. Can anyone on the list help me with the color thing? Is there
                                        any
                                        significance to the red cincture (or the red cassocks) that the acolytes
                                        wear? Thank you for your help on this. >>

                                        There's no significance. Sometimes churches and cathedrals choose a color as
                                        a mark of identity. While cassocks of ordinary clergy were ordinarily black,
                                        some churches sometimes had special colors. E.g. Westminster Abbey clergy
                                        (priests, choir, vergers, etc), wear red cassocks; I think the color I saw at
                                        Truro was maroon. I have seen brown, blue, and even purple. These were
                                        usually not ordinary parish churches, however. My personal opinion is that
                                        it would be pretentious for humble parish churches to affect regal colors.

                                        FCSenn
                                      • fcsenn@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 1/29/01 2:30:32 PM Central Standard Time, dpost@home.se writes:
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                          In a message dated 1/29/01 2:30:32 PM Central Standard Time, dpost@...
                                          writes:

                                          << In Sweden though,
                                          acolytes is a rare thing in the first place, so we usually use the
                                          confirmands
                                          white robes. In my opinion, though, color is one of creations many gifts we
                                          often tend to ignore in worship, so I would certainly go for red if I could.
                                          >>

                                          While on a previous post I indicated that cassocks in various colors may be
                                          used, it is usually a consistent color worn by everyone in the church or
                                          cathedral. I would think that when the practice of using acolytes is
                                          instituted or changes are made in vestments, it would be better to put
                                          everyone in albs (which, by definition, are white). The symbolism of
                                          everyone wearing the baptismal robe provides easy catechesis.

                                          In my opinion, having a rainbow assortment of colored cassocks would serve no
                                          purpose beyond promoting mindless ceremonialism.
                                          FCSenn
                                        • fcsenn@aol.com
                                          In a message dated 1/30/01 1:08:44 PM Central Standard Time, bbaldus@voyager.net writes:
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                            In a message dated 1/30/01 1:08:44 PM Central Standard Time,
                                            bbaldus@... writes:

                                            << To absolutely correct, one should consider the cassock to be ecclesiastical
                                            underwear. Therefore the one should wear cassock, under the alb and then
                                            add the
                                            remaining garb according to one's office.
                                            >>

                                            I think you have this backwards. The cassock is street clothing, not
                                            liturgical vesture. I don't run around in public in my underwear. The linen
                                            alb, however, was like a basic tunic, over which Roman gentlemen would add
                                            other tunics for dress-up occasions.

                                            FCSenn
                                          • Scott Knitter
                                            ... Unless the parish church is in a place where such a color is not associated with things regal nor peculiar. :)
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                              At 05.57 pm 01/31/2001 -0500, fcsenn@... wrote:
                                              >My personal opinion is that
                                              >it would be pretentious for humble parish churches to affect regal colors.

                                              Unless the parish church is in a place where such a color is not associated
                                              with things regal nor peculiar. :)
                                            • Art Hebbeler
                                              ... At the same time, the alb is also the basic garment of the baptized, so it would be appropriate for all those serving/leading worship. Peace Art Hebbeler
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                                At 09:46 PM 1/30/2001 -0800, you wrote:
                                                >On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, William Renwick wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > Since we are discussing albs, I would appreciate any "Theoretical
                                                > > background" regarding the use of alb versus cassock and surplice for an
                                                > > Anglican Choir in a relatively high liturgical setting.
                                                > >
                                                > > Any assistance or speculation--or stories--would be appreciated.
                                                >
                                                >It seems to me that choirs would be most properly vested in cassock and
                                                >surplice, because they are not Eucharistic ministers.
                                                >
                                                >Of course, this is coming from a man who attends a church where the choir
                                                >wear albs and the Lay Eucharistic Ministers wear cassock & surplice! It
                                                >looks nice either way, I suppose. It seems to me that in every Cathedral
                                                >service I have seen (cathedrals having among their duties setting an
                                                >example for liturgical practice) the choir wore cassocks and surplices.
                                                >
                                                >Regarding red cassocks on young choristers (someone was talking about this
                                                >earlier), while red is frequently used in that way in the US, in England
                                                >red cassocks are used in Royal Peculiars, that is, churches under the
                                                >direct purview of the crown, not affiliated with any diocese.

                                                At the same time, the alb is also the basic garment of the baptized, so it
                                                would be appropriate for all those serving/leading worship.

                                                Peace
                                                Art Hebbeler
                                              • Scott Knitter
                                                ... That may be, but I certainly wish I looked better in one.
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jan 31, 2001
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                                                  At 09.03 pm 01/31/2001 -0500, Art Hebbeler wrote:
                                                  >At the same time, the alb is also the basic garment of the baptized, so it
                                                  >would be appropriate for all those serving/leading worship.

                                                  That may be, but I certainly wish I looked better in one.
                                                • Ormonde Plater
                                                  ... it ... As I have remarked to our diocesan clergy (without their amusement), girdles make the fat look fatter. The most attractive alb is a long, flowing
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Feb 1 5:50 AM
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                                                    > >At the same time, the alb is also the basic garment of the baptized, so
                                                    it
                                                    > >would be appropriate for all those serving/leading worship.
                                                    >
                                                    > That may be, but I certainly wish I looked better in one.

                                                    As I have remarked to our diocesan clergy (without their amusement), girdles
                                                    make the fat look fatter. The most attractive alb is a long, flowing
                                                    garment, such as those sold by several vestment makers. I have a couple from
                                                    Holy Rood Guild that hide my avoirdupois.

                                                    Ormonde Plater
                                                    oplater@...
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