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Re: [liturgy-l] Requiem Changes-theory

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  • dlewisaao@aol.com
    Yes, true, to grant him/her/them rest etc. But was raising the question in terms of the overall matter of the perspective of the atonement. David In a
    Message 1 of 303 , Dec 31, 2008
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      Yes, true, to "grant him/her/them rest" etc.

      But was raising the question in terms of the overall matter of the
      perspective of the atonement.


      In a message dated 12/31/2008 8:01:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      skreed1@... writes:

      --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, dlewisaao@... wrote:
      > Where then would "O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the
      > have mercy upon us ... grant us thy peace" fit in?
      It wouldn't in a Requiem Mass, the words change :)



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    • Father Robert Lyons, SST
      ... If I reject it, it is because it is not supported by Scripture or the Fathers of the Church. ... has ... agree. ... I, for one, do not believe that the
      Message 303 of 303 , Jan 9, 2009
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        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Sean W. Reed" <skreed1@...> wrote:
        > I could certainly explain the teaching on this, but I suspect you
        > would reject it because you don't agree with it.

        If I reject it, it is because it is not supported by Scripture or
        the Fathers of the Church.

        > St. Thomas Aquinas, a canonized saint and Doctor of the Church,
        > done a masterful job, (as always)of treating this subject, as have
        > countless others. Walter Farrell in the mid 20th Century, in his
        > "Companion to Summa" http://stjamescatholic.org/farrell/ has also
        > treated this in great detail. Bishop James P. DeWolfe of the
        > Episcopal Church wrote a great deal about this also. They all
        > It all comes down do we believe what the church teaches or what we
        > prefer to think we modern folks have "restored" in the church.

        I, for one, do not believe that the Church has any authority to
        alter the truth. She may alter her manner of worship (provided it
        doesn't go delve into what the Scriptures forbid) but she may never
        change her theology...

        If the Church has changed her theology on Confirmation/Chrismation,
        an assertion that is readily apparent when reviewing ancient ritual
        traditions and finding no evidence for confirmation/chrismation
        apart from baptism except among those who were recieving folks from
        heterodox traditions, one has to ask, where is the history to prove
        that a Middle Age or Modern theologian can do better than the
        Fathers of the Church?

        > All this seems to be moving pretty far from Liturgy.

        On the contrary, it remains at the heart of Liturgy. Do we do as
        has been modeled for us by the most ancient Fathers of our Church,
        or do we do as someone later suggests - someone who hails from an
        era when the Church in the West was most definately *not* breathing
        from both lungs of her tradition?

        I highly respect Augustine and Thomas Aquinas... but, at the same
        time, I stringently disagree with many of their assertions -
        including their views (together with the generally accepted Western
        view) on Original Sin, embracing instead the Eastern view on the
        matter. The theology I embrace, in turn, affects my liturgical

        Looking back at nearly every historical baptismal liturgy we have,
        the deacons or deaconesses baptize an individual, then bring them
        out of the pool, clothe them, and take them directly to the bishop
        for Chrismation. There is no other confirmation rite... period.
        There is no historical evidence for what we would today call
        Confirmation until, what, the late 4th or early 5th century? How
        can we argue that Confirmation is one of the central Sacraments of
        the Church when Confirmation, in its origins, was simply the
        conclusion of the Baptismal Rite?

        To give a more apt example...

        When I was baptised at the age of 7 1/2 at my own request, after the
        pouring of water, I was anointed with Chrism and a prayer for the
        descent of the Spirit was offered over me. I was standing in a line
        with everyone else who had been baptized that night, the Easter
        Vigil, all adults except me. The same prayer was offered over all
        of us.

        They all recieved certificates for "Christian Initiation" detailing
        all three Sacraments - baptism, confirmation, and communion. I
        recieved a Certificate of Baptism. There was no difference in the
        rite or the prayer (and no, my memory isn't faulty... I have watched
        the video on several occassions and have heard the exact same prayer
        for the Spirit repeated over every person in the line). Yet, when I
        was a Sophomore in High School, I was told I needed to be
        confirmed. What did I need? What more could have been added? The
        Church Fathers seem to agree that nothing could be added. I was
        baptized and chrismated by a Priest with the faculty to confim.

        When can Confirmation rise to the Sacramental importance that has
        classically been linked to it? In my mind, it is only when baptism
        was performed by someone outside of Apostolic Succession - based on
        the Acts example of the Apostles confirming the baptisms in

        Other than that example, I see no scriptural or historical evidence
        that attests to the need for a second Post-Baptismal Anointing.

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