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Re: [liturgy-l] Old notions

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  • James O'Regan
    Tom wrote in another post: I think that a lot of our failure to progress toward full, conscious, and active participation or to develop great enthusiasm for
    Message 1 of 190 , Dec 1, 2008
      Tom wrote in another post:

      "I think that a lot of our failure to progress toward full, conscious,
      and active participation or to develop great enthusiasm for liturgy over
      the past forty years is because we have failed to clearly understand and
      explain what exactly liturgy is and what works or does not work in
      liturgy which may work in other forums."

      This explains as well the observation below. We tend to forget that we
      are dealing with a vernacular and observable liturgy that has not been
      allowed, or experienced, since the end of the Patristic age, circa 700
      +/-. It took the Fathers centuries to develop the theology that they
      did, tied as it was to liturgy. A mere 40 years is hardly anything to
      go by in theologizing about our liturgy. As well, as Tom implies, over
      a millennium of ostension alone has generated quite odd thoughts about
      liturgy, which had been attempts at responding to the event data, and
      did the job as well as could be given the circumstances.

      Those days, that event data and the circumstances are long gone. The
      precedents for vernacular liturgy is not the Latin language rite but
      the vernacular rites, including Latin, found in the Fathers and
      elsewhere. This explains in part, why people are so fascinated with
      Patristic writers: they seem to be speaking about things they have
      witnessed in the sense of full conscious and active participation in
      the liturgies of their day.

      All the best,

      James O'Regan
      oregan@...

      On 1-Dec-08, at 5:45 PM, Tom Poelker wrote:

      > The idea of recollection before prayer or communion is based on
      > thinking
      > of communion as a vertical relationship rather than as a horizontal
      > relationship which includes Jesus as a sibling.
    • Frank Senn
      Gosh! FCS ... From: Gregory Holmes Singleton Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] The Peace To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 8,
      Message 190 of 190 , Dec 8, 2008
        Gosh!

        FCS

        --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Gregory Holmes Singleton <roc1940@...> wrote:
        From: Gregory Holmes Singleton <roc1940@...>
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] The Peace
        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 1:39 AM











        Doug Cowling wrote:



        <<There is no such thing as an "objective liturgical

        standard", rather we see a rite through the prism of its cultural matrix.>>



        Certainly our fellow listmember Frank Senn has done an excellent job of illustrating this point in several of his works. Realizing that a prophet (and/or liturgical scholar--Frank is both) often is not as honored in his/her home town (or discussion list) as he/she ought to be, let me also suggest a thorough reading of the late (the "late" part perhaps suggesting greater authority to some) Cyrille Vogel's Introduction aux sources de l'histoire du culte chretien au moyen age (Spoleto: Centro italiano di studi sull'alto medioevo, 1966)--available in an excellent revision and translation (William G. Storey and Niels Krogh Rasmussen, O.P.) as Medieval Liturgy: An Introduction to the Sources (Washington, DC: The Pastoral Press, 1986). It is worth reading in its entirety, but the brief discussion of "The Peculiar Character of Liturgical Manuscripts" (pp. 62-64) is particular on-point for this thread.



        Personal note to Frank--so far as I am concerned, you can and do still have a place of great honor while living. That's my selfish preference. It's just easier to have a conversation with you that way.



        Peace,



        Greg



        Gregory Holmes Singleton, Ph.D., CSF

        www.neiu.edu/ ~ghsingle/

        Community of St. Francis

        www.communityofstfr ancischicago. com/

        Ecumenical Catholic Communion

        www.ecumenical- catholic- communion. org/



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