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Luminous Liturgy

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  • MMonty
    The final Mass for World Youth Day in Sydney Australia last Sunday was extraordinarily beautiful. The music was magnificent. The setting was composed by an
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 21, 2008
      The final Mass for World Youth Day in Sydney Australia last Sunday was
      extraordinarily beautiful.
      The music was magnificent. The setting was composed by an Australian Judge
      and played and sung by the Australian Youth orchestra and choirs of both
      children and adults.
      During the Gloria I noted that the Holy Father was moved to tears by the
      whole occasion. He is very human after all. ~):-)
      I must admit that I too was very moved by the excellence of the whole
      liturgy and the youth of the world apparently had the same reaction. They
      loved it.
      It struck me that on an occasion like this with people from 167 countries
      and several languages the use of easily sung greek and latin responses as
      well as english helped the very real sense of unity.
      It reinforced my feeling from way back that we had lost one important
      element when the Mass changed to the vernacular. If you travelled to another
      country back when latin was the common language of the Mass you could always
      participate fully because you knew the language of the Mass no matter what
      country you were in. That gave a sense of belonging to the universal Church
      no matter where you were.
      Just my 2 cents worth....
      Peace...
      MaryM (the former liturgical terrorist from Australia.
    • Tom Poelker
      Why oh why, with such a mixed assembly from so many places, why introduce a new musical composition for the commons of the Mass? If the objective is full,
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 22, 2008
        Why oh why, with such a mixed assembly from so many places, why
        introduce a new musical composition for the commons of the Mass?

        If the objective is full, conscious, and active participation, why have
        opening night for a cultural event instead of using the most familiar
        music, most likely to get the broadest participation?

        Also, saw one newspaper article which described how crowd "adored" the
        pope. Heretical, to say the least.

        I hate how these events become personality cult, campaign stops for the
        individual who holds the papacy. It seems they encourage the old
        attitude of attending the Mass said by the pope rather than encouraging
        participation in the Eucharist.

        Tom Poelker
        St. Louis, Missouri
        USA
        -- When you were born, you were crying
        and everyone around you was smiling.
        -- Live your life so at the end,
        you're the one who is smiling and
        everyone around you is crying.



        mmonty@... wrote:

        > The final Mass for World Youth Day in Sydney Australia last Sunday was
        > extraordinarily beautiful.
        > The music was magnificent. The setting was composed by an Australian
        > Judge
        > and played and sung by the Australian Youth orchestra and choirs of both
        > children and adults.
        > During the Gloria I noted that the Holy Father was moved to tears by the
        > whole occasion. He is very human after all. ~):-)
        > I must admit that I too was very moved by the excellence of the whole
        > liturgy and the youth of the world apparently had the same reaction. They
        > loved it.
        > It struck me that on an occasion like this with people from 167 countries
        > and several languages the use of easily sung greek and latin responses as
        > well as english helped the very real sense of unity.
        > It reinforced my feeling from way back that we had lost one important
        > element when the Mass changed to the vernacular. If you travelled to
        > another
        > country back when latin was the common language of the Mass you could
        > always
        > participate fully because you knew the language of the Mass no matter
        > what
        > country you were in. That gave a sense of belonging to the universal
        > Church
        > no matter where you were.
        > Just my 2 cents worth....
        > Peace...
        > MaryM (the former liturgical terrorist from Australia.
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • MMonty
        ... From: Tom Poelker To: Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 23, 2008
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@...>
          To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:59 PM
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy


          > Why oh why, with such a mixed assembly from so many places, why introduce
          > a new musical composition for the commons of the Mass?>

          Because it was a special occasion.

          >
          > If the objective is full, conscious, and active participation, why have
          > opening night for a cultural event instead of using the most familiar
          > music, most likely to get the broadest participation?>

          Because most parishes have their own favourite setting for the Mass and it
          is very likely unknown to most of the visiting participants. All the
          participants had books in their own language and the responses for mass were
          very easily picked up by the congregation.
          As for full and active participation --- if you had seen the faces and
          attitudes of all those young people you would know they wer very actively
          involved in the whole event.

          > > Also, saw one newspaper article which described how crowd "adored" the
          > > pope. Heretical, to say the least.>

          That is just the typical press comment that shows the press hasn't much of a
          clue about the religious issues that kind of wording can bring up.
          The young people responded to everything they were being taught in the daily
          catechetical sessions and in the teaching of the Bishops and the Holy
          Father. They found it very easy to relate to him and showed their
          appreciation in the way young people do for someone they love.
          >
          > I hate how these events become personality cult, campaign stops for the
          > individual who holds the papacy. It seems they encourage the old
          > attitude of attending the Mass said by the pope rather than encouraging
          > participation in the Eucharist.>

          I wouldn't say that that applied to Benedict. His whole attitude was that
          of a pastoral visit to his flock. That it was such a big public event
          because of the numbers proved to be a blessing. All the Sydney siders were
          very impressed with the good behaviour of the pilgrims. Even the Police
          noted that the crime rate during that week was the lowest it had been for a
          long time.

          Overall the Christian witness given was excellent and the locals who hosted
          the pilgrims were very happy to have them. That included accomodation in
          various denominational schools and halls and even being guests in an Islamic
          school.

          The public witness to the Christian faith during that week made quite an
          impression on all. The cultural exchange can only be a source of peaceful
          co-operation in the future.

          Anyway, we will following up in the parish with the young people who
          attended the weeklong event. Will be interesting to see what the future
          brings.
          Peace...
          MaryM
        • Tom Poelker
          Most important sentence of original message which drew no response: It seems they encourage the old attitude of attending the Mass said by the pope rather
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 23, 2008
            Most important sentence of original message which drew no response:
            "It seems they encourage the old attitude of attending the Mass said by
            the pope rather than encouraging participation in the Eucharist."
            -----------------------
            Why should a special occasion mean new music?
            I'm willing to bet that at most arena liturgies one could find a Mass
            setting already known to most with a common language on that continent
            and a few months' notice for that it would be enough time to give those
            unfamiliar a chance to brush up on the well-known piece. In Australia
            and North America, the commons should be in English. In Europe or
            Africa, why not use one of the classic Latin settings of the Kyriale?

            Going back to Pius XII at least, the RCC has clearly taught that the
            purpose of liturgical music is to enhance communal participation in the
            texts. I suspect the arena Mass also encouraged the assembly to listen
            to musicians a lot rather than encouraging musicians to accompany
            congregational singing. In what ratio, at the arena Mass, was music
            prepared ahead of time and presented by music ministers for the assembly
            to hear versus music being sung by the entire assembly?

            Enhanced accompaniment is certainly called for in an Arena Mass, but why
            show off new music? Unnecessary expense and obstacle to full,
            conscious, and active participation, it seems to me. The church is not
            in the business of subsidizing musicians but of involving people in
            public prayer.

            I can say nothing about the other objectives of the trip, but it seems
            to me that the liturgical practices described continue the pressure away
            from all celebrating the Eucharist together and back toward the priest
            being the only celebrant and others observing the specialists instead of
            participating.



            Tom Poelker
            St. Louis, Missouri
            USA
            -- When you were born, you were crying
            and everyone around you was smiling.
            -- Live your life so at the end,
            you're the one who is smiling and
            everyone around you is crying.



            mmonty@... wrote:

            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@... <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>>
            > To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:59 PM
            > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy
            >
            > > Why oh why, with such a mixed assembly from so many places, why
            > introduce
            > > a new musical composition for the commons of the Mass?>
            >
            > Because it was a special occasion.
            >
            > >
            > > If the objective is full, conscious, and active participation, why have
            > > opening night for a cultural event instead of using the most familiar
            > > music, most likely to get the broadest participation?>
            >
            > Because most parishes have their own favourite setting for the Mass
            > and it
            > is very likely unknown to most of the visiting participants. All the
            > participants had books in their own language and the responses for
            > mass were
            > very easily picked up by the congregation.
            > As for full and active participation --- if you had seen the faces and
            > attitudes of all those young people you would know they wer very actively
            > involved in the whole event.
            >
            > > > Also, saw one newspaper article which described how crowd "adored"
            > the
            > > > pope. Heretical, to say the least.>
            >
            > That is just the typical press comment that shows the press hasn't
            > much of a
            > clue about the religious issues that kind of wording can bring up.
            > The young people responded to everything they were being taught in the
            > daily
            > catechetical sessions and in the teaching of the Bishops and the Holy
            > Father. They found it very easy to relate to him and showed their
            > appreciation in the way young people do for someone they love.
            > >
            > > I hate how these events become personality cult, campaign stops for the
            > > individual who holds the papacy. It seems they encourage the old
            > > attitude of attending the Mass said by the pope rather than encouraging
            > > participation in the Eucharist.>
            >
            > I wouldn't say that that applied to Benedict. His whole attitude was that
            > of a pastoral visit to his flock. That it was such a big public event
            > because of the numbers proved to be a blessing. All the Sydney siders
            > were
            > very impressed with the good behaviour of the pilgrims. Even the Police
            > noted that the crime rate during that week was the lowest it had been
            > for a
            > long time.
            >
            > Overall the Christian witness given was excellent and the locals who
            > hosted
            > the pilgrims were very happy to have them. That included accomodation in
            > various denominational schools and halls and even being guests in an
            > Islamic
            > school.
            >
            > The public witness to the Christian faith during that week made quite an
            > impression on all. The cultural exchange can only be a source of peaceful
            > co-operation in the future.
            >
            > Anyway, we will following up in the parish with the young people who
            > attended the weeklong event. Will be interesting to see what the future
            > brings.
            > Peace...
            > MaryM
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Frank Senn
            The other side of the argument is that young people learn new music quite readily. If the mass setting had a winsome character, the pilgrims may want to be
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 24, 2008
              The other side of the argument is that young people learn new music quite readily. If the mass setting had a winsome character, the pilgrims may want to be implementing it in their home parishes and dioceses. An event like this can produce musical settings that soon gain global use. Durability is related to quality, but quality is not related to difficulty.

              Frank C. Senn

              Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...> wrote: Most important sentence of original message which drew no response:
              "It seems they encourage the old attitude of attending the Mass said by
              the pope rather than encouraging participation in the Eucharist."
              -----------------------
              Why should a special occasion mean new music?
              I'm willing to bet that at most arena liturgies one could find a Mass
              setting already known to most with a common language on that continent
              and a few months' notice for that it would be enough time to give those
              unfamiliar a chance to brush up on the well-known piece. In Australia
              and North America, the commons should be in English. In Europe or
              Africa, why not use one of the classic Latin settings of the Kyriale?

              Going back to Pius XII at least, the RCC has clearly taught that the
              purpose of liturgical music is to enhance communal participation in the
              texts. I suspect the arena Mass also encouraged the assembly to listen
              to musicians a lot rather than encouraging musicians to accompany
              congregational singing. In what ratio, at the arena Mass, was music
              prepared ahead of time and presented by music ministers for the assembly
              to hear versus music being sung by the entire assembly?

              Enhanced accompaniment is certainly called for in an Arena Mass, but why
              show off new music? Unnecessary expense and obstacle to full,
              conscious, and active participation, it seems to me. The church is not
              in the business of subsidizing musicians but of involving people in
              public prayer.

              I can say nothing about the other objectives of the trip, but it seems
              to me that the liturgical practices described continue the pressure away
              from all celebrating the Eucharist together and back toward the priest
              being the only celebrant and others observing the specialists instead of
              participating.

              Tom Poelker
              St. Louis, Missouri
              USA
              -- When you were born, you were crying
              and everyone around you was smiling.
              -- Live your life so at the end,
              you're the one who is smiling and
              everyone around you is crying.

              mmonty@... wrote:

              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@... <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>>
              > To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
              > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:59 PM
              > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy
              >
              > > Why oh why, with such a mixed assembly from so many places, why
              > introduce
              > > a new musical composition for the commons of the Mass?>
              >
              > Because it was a special occasion.
              >
              > >
              > > If the objective is full, conscious, and active participation, why have
              > > opening night for a cultural event instead of using the most familiar
              > > music, most likely to get the broadest participation?>
              >
              > Because most parishes have their own favourite setting for the Mass
              > and it
              > is very likely unknown to most of the visiting participants. All the
              > participants had books in their own language and the responses for
              > mass were
              > very easily picked up by the congregation.
              > As for full and active participation --- if you had seen the faces and
              > attitudes of all those young people you would know they wer very actively
              > involved in the whole event.
              >
              > > > Also, saw one newspaper article which described how crowd "adored"
              > the
              > > > pope. Heretical, to say the least.>
              >
              > That is just the typical press comment that shows the press hasn't
              > much of a
              > clue about the religious issues that kind of wording can bring up.
              > The young people responded to everything they were being taught in the
              > daily
              > catechetical sessions and in the teaching of the Bishops and the Holy
              > Father. They found it very easy to relate to him and showed their
              > appreciation in the way young people do for someone they love.
              > >
              > > I hate how these events become personality cult, campaign stops for the
              > > individual who holds the papacy. It seems they encourage the old
              > > attitude of attending the Mass said by the pope rather than encouraging
              > > participation in the Eucharist.>
              >
              > I wouldn't say that that applied to Benedict. His whole attitude was that
              > of a pastoral visit to his flock. That it was such a big public event
              > because of the numbers proved to be a blessing. All the Sydney siders
              > were
              > very impressed with the good behaviour of the pilgrims. Even the Police
              > noted that the crime rate during that week was the lowest it had been
              > for a
              > long time.
              >
              > Overall the Christian witness given was excellent and the locals who
              > hosted
              > the pilgrims were very happy to have them. That included accomodation in
              > various denominational schools and halls and even being guests in an
              > Islamic
              > school.
              >
              > The public witness to the Christian faith during that week made quite an
              > impression on all. The cultural exchange can only be a source of peaceful
              > co-operation in the future.
              >
              > Anyway, we will following up in the parish with the young people who
              > attended the weeklong event. Will be interesting to see what the future
              > brings.
              > Peace...
              > MaryM
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Poelker
              If the mass setting had a winsome character, the pilgrims may want to be implementing it in their home parishes and dioceses. An event like this can produce
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 24, 2008
                "If the mass setting had a winsome character, the pilgrims may want to
                be implementing it in their home parishes and dioceses. An event like
                this can produce musical settings that soon gain global use."

                True, but why is this a good thing?

                OTOH, one of the two Mass settings I would suggest for any N. Amer. RC
                national gathering was introduced at a Eucharistic Congress. Twenty
                years ago, I would have sworn that 80% of US RCs would have known it and
                it worked well a capella and with full orchestration.

                Tom Poelker
                St. Louis, Missouri
                USA
                -- When you were born, you were crying
                and everyone around you was smiling.
                -- Live your life so at the end,
                you're the one who is smiling and
                everyone around you is crying.



                fcsenn@... wrote:

                > The other side of the argument is that young people learn new music
                > quite readily. If the mass setting had a winsome character, the
                > pilgrims may want to be implementing it in their home parishes and
                > dioceses. An event like this can produce musical settings that soon
                > gain global use. Durability is related to quality, but quality is not
                > related to difficulty.
                >
                > Frank C. Senn
                >
                > Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@... <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>> wrote:
                > Most important sentence of original message which drew no response:
                > "It seems they encourage the old attitude of attending the Mass said by
                > the pope rather than encouraging participation in the Eucharist."
                > -----------------------
                > Why should a special occasion mean new music?
                > I'm willing to bet that at most arena liturgies one could find a Mass
                > setting already known to most with a common language on that continent
                > and a few months' notice for that it would be enough time to give those
                > unfamiliar a chance to brush up on the well-known piece. In Australia
                > and North America, the commons should be in English. In Europe or
                > Africa, why not use one of the classic Latin settings of the Kyriale?
                >
                > Going back to Pius XII at least, the RCC has clearly taught that the
                > purpose of liturgical music is to enhance communal participation in the
                > texts. I suspect the arena Mass also encouraged the assembly to listen
                > to musicians a lot rather than encouraging musicians to accompany
                > congregational singing. In what ratio, at the arena Mass, was music
                > prepared ahead of time and presented by music ministers for the assembly
                > to hear versus music being sung by the entire assembly?
                >
                > Enhanced accompaniment is certainly called for in an Arena Mass, but why
                > show off new music? Unnecessary expense and obstacle to full,
                > conscious, and active participation, it seems to me. The church is not
                > in the business of subsidizing musicians but of involving people in
                > public prayer.
                >
                > I can say nothing about the other objectives of the trip, but it seems
                > to me that the liturgical practices described continue the pressure away
                > from all celebrating the Eucharist together and back toward the priest
                > being the only celebrant and others observing the specialists instead of
                > participating.
                >
                > Tom Poelker
                > St. Louis, Missouri
                > USA
                > -- When you were born, you were crying
                > and everyone around you was smiling.
                > -- Live your life so at the end,
                > you're the one who is smiling and
                > everyone around you is crying.
                >
                > mmonty@... <mailto:mmonty%40halenet.com.au> wrote:
                >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@...
                > <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com> <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>>
                > > To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                > <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
                > > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:59 PM
                > > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy
                > >
                > > > Why oh why, with such a mixed assembly from so many places, why
                > > introduce
                > > > a new musical composition for the commons of the Mass?>
                > >
                > > Because it was a special occasion.
                > >
                > > >
                > > > If the objective is full, conscious, and active participation, why
                > have
                > > > opening night for a cultural event instead of using the most familiar
                > > > music, most likely to get the broadest participation?>
                > >
                > > Because most parishes have their own favourite setting for the Mass
                > > and it
                > > is very likely unknown to most of the visiting participants. All the
                > > participants had books in their own language and the responses for
                > > mass were
                > > very easily picked up by the congregation.
                > > As for full and active participation --- if you had seen the faces and
                > > attitudes of all those young people you would know they wer very
                > actively
                > > involved in the whole event.
                > >
                > > > > Also, saw one newspaper article which described how crowd "adored"
                > > the
                > > > > pope. Heretical, to say the least.>
                > >
                > > That is just the typical press comment that shows the press hasn't
                > > much of a
                > > clue about the religious issues that kind of wording can bring up.
                > > The young people responded to everything they were being taught in the
                > > daily
                > > catechetical sessions and in the teaching of the Bishops and the Holy
                > > Father. They found it very easy to relate to him and showed their
                > > appreciation in the way young people do for someone they love.
                > > >
                > > > I hate how these events become personality cult, campaign stops
                > for the
                > > > individual who holds the papacy. It seems they encourage the old
                > > > attitude of attending the Mass said by the pope rather than
                > encouraging
                > > > participation in the Eucharist.>
                > >
                > > I wouldn't say that that applied to Benedict. His whole attitude was
                > that
                > > of a pastoral visit to his flock. That it was such a big public event
                > > because of the numbers proved to be a blessing. All the Sydney siders
                > > were
                > > very impressed with the good behaviour of the pilgrims. Even the Police
                > > noted that the crime rate during that week was the lowest it had been
                > > for a
                > > long time.
                > >
                > > Overall the Christian witness given was excellent and the locals who
                > > hosted
                > > the pilgrims were very happy to have them. That included accomodation in
                > > various denominational schools and halls and even being guests in an
                > > Islamic
                > > school.
                > >
                > > The public witness to the Christian faith during that week made quite an
                > > impression on all. The cultural exchange can only be a source of
                > peaceful
                > > co-operation in the future.
                > >
                > > Anyway, we will following up in the parish with the young people who
                > > attended the weeklong event. Will be interesting to see what the future
                > > brings.
                > > Peace...
                > > MaryM
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • cantor03@aol.com
                What Mass setting was that? David Strang. ... From: Tom Poelker To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 2:29 pm Subject: Re:
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 24, 2008
                  What Mass setting was that?


                  David Strang.


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...>
                  To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 2:29 pm
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy






                  "If the mass setting had a winsome character, the pilgrims may want to
                  be implementing it in their home parishes and dioceses. An event like
                  this can produce musical settings that soon gain global use."

                  True, but why is this a good thing?

                  OTOH, one of the two Mass settings I would suggest for any N. Amer. RC
                  national gathering was introduced at a Eucharistic Congress. Twenty
                  years ago, I would have sworn that 80% of US RCs would have known it and
                  it worked well a capella and with full orchestration.

                  Tom Poelker
                  St. Louis, Missouri
                  USA
                  -- When you were born, you were crying
                  and everyone around you was smiling.
                  -- Live your life so at the end,
                  you're the one who is smiling and
                  everyone around you is crying.

                  fcsenn@... wrote:

                  > The other side of the argument is that young people learn new music
                  > quite readily. If the mass setting had a winsome character, the
                  > pilgrims may want to be implementing it in their home parishes and
                  > dioceses. An event like this can produce musical settings that soon
                  > gain global use. Durability is related to quality, but quality is not
                  > related to difficulty.
                  >
                  > Frank C. Senn
                  >
                  > Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@... <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>> wrote:
                  > Most important sentence of original message which drew no response:
                  > "It seems they encourage the old attitude of attending the Mass said by
                  > the pope rather than encouraging participation in the Eucharist."
                  > -----------------------
                  > Why should a special occasion mean new music?
                  > I'm willing to bet that at most arena liturgies one could find a Mass
                  > setting already known to most with a common language on that continent
                  > and a few months' notice for that it would be enough time to give those
                  > unfamiliar a chance to brush up on the well-known piece. In Australia
                  > and North America, the commons should be in English. In Europe or
                  > Africa, why not use one of the classic Latin settings of the Kyriale?
                  >
                  > Going back to Pius XII at least, the RCC has clearly taught that the
                  > purpose of liturgical music is to enhance communal participation in the
                  > texts. I suspect the arena Mass also encouraged the assembly to listen
                  > to musicians a lot rather than encouraging musicians to accompany
                  > congregational singing. In what ratio, at the arena Mass, was music
                  > prepared ahead of time and presented by music ministers for the assembly
                  > to hear versus music being sung by the entire assembly?
                  >
                  > Enhanced accompaniment is certainly called for in an Arena Mass, but why
                  > show off new music? Unnecessary expense and obstacle to full,
                  > conscious, and active participation, it seems to me. The church is not
                  > in the business of subsidizing musicians but of involving people in
                  > public prayer.
                  >
                  > I can say nothing about the other objectives of the trip, but it seems
                  > to me that the liturgical practices described continue the pressure away
                  > from all celebrating the Eucharist together and back toward the priest
                  > being the only celebrant and others observing the specialists instead of
                  > participating.
                  >
                  > Tom Poelker
                  > St. Louis, Missouri
                  > USA
                  > -- When you were born, you were crying
                  > and everyone around you was smiling.
                  > -- Live your life so at the end,
                  > you're the one who is smiling and
                  > everyone around you is crying.
                  >
                  > mmonty@... <mailto:mmonty%40halenet.com.au> wrote:
                  >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@...
                  > <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com> <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>>
                  > > To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:59 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy
                  > >
                  > > > Why oh why, with such a mixed assembly from so many places, why
                  > > introduce
                  > > > a new musical composition for the commons of the Mass?>
                  > >
                  > > Because it was a special occasion.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > If the objective is full, conscious, and active participation, why
                  > have
                  > > > opening night for a cultural event instead of using the most familiar
                  > > > music, most likely to get the broadest participation?>
                  > >
                  > > Because most parishes have their own favourite setting for the Mass
                  > > and it
                  > > is very likely unknown to most of the visiting participants. All the
                  > > participants had books in their own language and the responses for
                  > > mass were
                  > > very easily picked up by the congregation.
                  > > As for full and active participation --- if you had seen the faces and
                  > > attitudes of all those young people you would know they wer very
                  > actively
                  > > involved in the whole event.
                  > >
                  > > > > Also, saw one newspaper article which described how crowd "adored"
                  > > the
                  > > > > pope. Heretical, to say the least.>
                  > >
                  > > That is just the typical press comment that shows the press hasn't
                  > > much of a
                  > > clue about the religious issues that kind of wording can bring up.
                  > > The young people responded to everything they were being taught in the
                  > > daily
                  > > catechetical sessions and in the teaching of the Bishops and the Holy
                  > > Father. They found it very easy to relate to him and showed their
                  > > appreciation in the way young people do for someone they love.
                  > > >
                  > > > I hate how these events become personality cult, campaign stops
                  > for the
                  > > > individual who holds the papacy. It seems they encourage the old
                  > > > attitude of attending the Mass said by the pope rather than
                  > encouraging
                  > > > participation in the Eucharist.>
                  > >
                  > > I wouldn't say that that applied to Benedict. His whole attitude was
                  > that
                  > > of a pastoral visit to his flock. That it was such a big public event
                  > > because of the numbers proved to be a blessing. All the Sydney siders
                  > > were
                  > > very impressed with the good behaviour of the pilgrims. Even the Police
                  > > noted that the crime rate during that week was the lowest it had been
                  > > for a
                  > > long time.
                  > >
                  > > Overall the Christian witness given was excellent and the locals who
                  > > hosted
                  > > the pilgrims were very happy to have them. That included accomodation in
                  > > various denominational schools and halls and even being guests in an
                  > > Islamic
                  > > school.
                  > >
                  > > The public witness to the Christian faith during that week made quite an
                  > > impression on all. The cultural exchange can only be a source of
                  > peaceful
                  > > co-operation in the future.
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, we will following up in the parish with the young people who
                  > > attended the weeklong event. Will be interesting to see what the future
                  > > brings.
                  > > Peace...
                  > > MaryM
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Frank Senn
                  Symbolic identification with a significant event. Frank C. Senn Tom Poelker wrote: If the mass setting had a
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 24, 2008
                    Symbolic identification with a significant event.

                    Frank C. Senn

                    Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...> wrote: "If the mass setting had a winsome character, the pilgrims may want to
                    be implementing it in their home parishes and dioceses. An event like
                    this can produce musical settings that soon gain global use."

                    True, but why is this a good thing?

                    OTOH, one of the two Mass settings I would suggest for any N. Amer. RC
                    national gathering was introduced at a Eucharistic Congress. Twenty
                    years ago, I would have sworn that 80% of US RCs would have known it and
                    it worked well a capella and with full orchestration.

                    Tom Poelker
                    St. Louis, Missouri
                    USA
                    -- When you were born, you were crying
                    and everyone around you was smiling.
                    -- Live your life so at the end,
                    you're the one who is smiling and
                    everyone around you is crying.

                    fcsenn@... wrote:

                    > The other side of the argument is that young people learn new music
                    > quite readily. If the mass setting had a winsome character, the
                    > pilgrims may want to be implementing it in their home parishes and
                    > dioceses. An event like this can produce musical settings that soon
                    > gain global use. Durability is related to quality, but quality is not
                    > related to difficulty.
                    >
                    > Frank C. Senn
                    >
                    > Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@... <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>> wrote:
                    > Most important sentence of original message which drew no response:
                    > "It seems they encourage the old attitude of attending the Mass said by
                    > the pope rather than encouraging participation in the Eucharist."
                    > -----------------------
                    > Why should a special occasion mean new music?
                    > I'm willing to bet that at most arena liturgies one could find a Mass
                    > setting already known to most with a common language on that continent
                    > and a few months' notice for that it would be enough time to give those
                    > unfamiliar a chance to brush up on the well-known piece. In Australia
                    > and North America, the commons should be in English. In Europe or
                    > Africa, why not use one of the classic Latin settings of the Kyriale?
                    >
                    > Going back to Pius XII at least, the RCC has clearly taught that the
                    > purpose of liturgical music is to enhance communal participation in the
                    > texts. I suspect the arena Mass also encouraged the assembly to listen
                    > to musicians a lot rather than encouraging musicians to accompany
                    > congregational singing. In what ratio, at the arena Mass, was music
                    > prepared ahead of time and presented by music ministers for the assembly
                    > to hear versus music being sung by the entire assembly?
                    >
                    > Enhanced accompaniment is certainly called for in an Arena Mass, but why
                    > show off new music? Unnecessary expense and obstacle to full,
                    > conscious, and active participation, it seems to me. The church is not
                    > in the business of subsidizing musicians but of involving people in
                    > public prayer.
                    >
                    > I can say nothing about the other objectives of the trip, but it seems
                    > to me that the liturgical practices described continue the pressure away
                    > from all celebrating the Eucharist together and back toward the priest
                    > being the only celebrant and others observing the specialists instead of
                    > participating.
                    >
                    > Tom Poelker
                    > St. Louis, Missouri
                    > USA
                    > -- When you were born, you were crying
                    > and everyone around you was smiling.
                    > -- Live your life so at the end,
                    > you're the one who is smiling and
                    > everyone around you is crying.
                    >
                    > mmonty@... <mailto:mmonty%40halenet.com.au> wrote:
                    >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@...
                    > <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com> <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>>
                    > > To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:59 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy
                    > >
                    > > > Why oh why, with such a mixed assembly from so many places, why
                    > > introduce
                    > > > a new musical composition for the commons of the Mass?>
                    > >
                    > > Because it was a special occasion.
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > If the objective is full, conscious, and active participation, why
                    > have
                    > > > opening night for a cultural event instead of using the most familiar
                    > > > music, most likely to get the broadest participation?>
                    > >
                    > > Because most parishes have their own favourite setting for the Mass
                    > > and it
                    > > is very likely unknown to most of the visiting participants. All the
                    > > participants had books in their own language and the responses for
                    > > mass were
                    > > very easily picked up by the congregation.
                    > > As for full and active participation --- if you had seen the faces and
                    > > attitudes of all those young people you would know they wer very
                    > actively
                    > > involved in the whole event.
                    > >
                    > > > > Also, saw one newspaper article which described how crowd "adored"
                    > > the
                    > > > > pope. Heretical, to say the least.>
                    > >
                    > > That is just the typical press comment that shows the press hasn't
                    > > much of a
                    > > clue about the religious issues that kind of wording can bring up.
                    > > The young people responded to everything they were being taught in the
                    > > daily
                    > > catechetical sessions and in the teaching of the Bishops and the Holy
                    > > Father. They found it very easy to relate to him and showed their
                    > > appreciation in the way young people do for someone they love.
                    > > >
                    > > > I hate how these events become personality cult, campaign stops
                    > for the
                    > > > individual who holds the papacy. It seems they encourage the old
                    > > > attitude of attending the Mass said by the pope rather than
                    > encouraging
                    > > > participation in the Eucharist.>
                    > >
                    > > I wouldn't say that that applied to Benedict. His whole attitude was
                    > that
                    > > of a pastoral visit to his flock. That it was such a big public event
                    > > because of the numbers proved to be a blessing. All the Sydney siders
                    > > were
                    > > very impressed with the good behaviour of the pilgrims. Even the Police
                    > > noted that the crime rate during that week was the lowest it had been
                    > > for a
                    > > long time.
                    > >
                    > > Overall the Christian witness given was excellent and the locals who
                    > > hosted
                    > > the pilgrims were very happy to have them. That included accomodation in
                    > > various denominational schools and halls and even being guests in an
                    > > Islamic
                    > > school.
                    > >
                    > > The public witness to the Christian faith during that week made quite an
                    > > impression on all. The cultural exchange can only be a source of
                    > peaceful
                    > > co-operation in the future.
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, we will following up in the parish with the young people who
                    > > attended the weeklong event. Will be interesting to see what the future
                    > > brings.
                    > > Peace...
                    > > MaryM
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Father Robert Lyons
                    Tom, One thing I noticed, and that several bloggers commented upon, was the fact that the sung portions of the Mass in English were all drawn from the newly
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 25, 2008
                      Tom,

                      One thing I noticed, and that several bloggers commented upon, was the fact
                      that the sung portions of the Mass in English were all drawn from the newly
                      revised translation of the Ordinary of the Mass that is forthcoming. The
                      Vatican gave permission to use the new translation in this setting, quite
                      possibly as a full-scale test (though, since the Ordinary is approved, I
                      don't know for the life of me what they would change in the wake of actually
                      using it...)

                      Since this was the new translation, and none of the old translations
                      (particularlly of the Gloria) are close enough to transpose the new words to
                      the old music, a new setting was needed.

                      One commenter, I think at NLM, noted his aggrivation about yet another score
                      for the Mass, to which another poster replied "Why on earth would you bother
                      with rearranging a subpar setting to a better translation?" While a lot of
                      us may disagree with the assertion that the new translation is better than
                      the existing one, the poster had a point.

                      Rob+

                      --
                      Father Robert Lyons
                      www.stellarcross.org

                      "Too many people try to conform the Christian message to themselves instead
                      of embracing the Christian message and letting it conform them to Christ."


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • MMonty
                      ... From: Tom Poelker Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy ... I was under the impression
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 25, 2008
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@...>
                        Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:21 PM
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy


                        > Most important sentence of original message which drew no response:
                        > "It seems they encourage the old attitude of attending the Mass said by
                        > the pope rather than encouraging participation in the Eucharist."?>

                        I was under the impression that this comment was answered by my remarks
                        about the obvious involvement of the youth in the prayers of the Mass etc.
                        Apart from the fact that for the whole week there was daily Mass celebrated
                        by the Priest's accompanying each group of pilgrims from their own country
                        involving them in "full, conscious participation" in each of the liturgical
                        events of the week.

                        > > Why should a special occasion mean new music?
                        > I'm willing to bet that at most arena liturgies one could find a Mass
                        > setting already known to most with a common language on that continent and
                        > a few months' notice for that it would be enough time to give those
                        > unfamiliar a chance to brush up on the well-known piece.
                        In Australia and North America, the commons should be in English. In
                        Europe or Africa, why not use one of the classic Latin settings of the
                        Kyriale?>

                        Since we had people here for WYD from the areas you mention then obviously
                        we did a good job of covering "all: the language groups you mention. You
                        seem to have missed out on the fact that the largest groups of pilgrims here
                        came from the Phillipines, Oceania, (Fiji, New Guinea, Samoa etc).

                        The Kyriale was sung to a very traditional music---Gregorian Chant. Does
                        that fit in with your view.
                        >
                        > Going back to Pius XII at least, the RCC has clearly taught that the
                        > purpose of liturgical music is to enhance communal participation in the
                        > texts. I suspect the arena Mass also encouraged the assembly to listen
                        > to musicians a lot rather than encouraging musicians to accompany
                        > congregational singing. In what ratio, at the arena Mass, was music
                        > prepared ahead of time and presented by music ministers for the assembly
                        > to hear versus music being sung by the entire assembly?

                        All the common responses were sung by the congregation
                        led by a cantor. Easily repeatable texts are also easily learned. All the
                        pilgrims had copies of the liturgy in their own language with the music
                        printed as well.
                        >
                        > Enhanced accompaniment is certainly called for in an Arena Mass, but why
                        > show off new music? Unnecessary expense and obstacle to full, conscious,
                        > and active participation, it seems to me. The church is not in the
                        > business of subsidizing musicians but of involving people in
                        public prayer.>

                        None of the musicians were being subsidised but came from various Catholic
                        organisations and choirs. The person who wrote the setting did so as a
                        labour of love. Not requiring payment.

                        > I can say nothing about the other objectives of the trip, but it seems to
                        > me that the liturgical practices described continue the pressure away
                        > from all celebrating the Eucharist together and back toward the priest
                        > being the only celebrant and others observing the specialists instead of
                        > participating.>

                        From my observation (and I have observed very closely believe me) this was
                        not the effect at all.

                        Peace..
                        MaryM (the odd Aussie)
                      • Frank Senn
                        And I can testify that Mary M the Aussie is a very sharp observer indeed. Greetings, Mary. I remember your visit to the Lutheran church in Eight Mile Plain
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 25, 2008
                          And I can testify that Mary M the Aussie is a very sharp observer indeed. Greetings, Mary. I remember your visit to the Lutheran church in Eight Mile Plain near Brisbain when I preached there several years ago.

                          Frank C. Senn

                          MMonty <mmonty@...> wrote: From my observation (and I have observed very closely believe me) this was
                          not the effect at all.

                          Peace..
                          MaryM (the odd Aussie)






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Michael
                          Your comments bring back memories of when the Bishop would come. The choir would do unknown glorias, sanctus, etc. I would have felt much more comfortable
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 25, 2008
                            Your comments bring back memories of when the Bishop would come. The choir
                            would do unknown glorias, sanctus, etc. I would have felt much more
                            comfortable participating with something we all new, or being taught the new
                            settings before the Bishop's arrival.





                            Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach,



                            +Michael Joe Thannisch

                            Pastor: Congregation Benim Avraham

                            mjthannisch@...

                            http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/

                            http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1929216

                            281-867-9081



                            _____

                            From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of Tom Poelker
                            Sent: 23 July 2008 21:22
                            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy



                            Most important sentence of original message which drew no response:
                            "It seems they encourage the old attitude of attending the Mass said by
                            the pope rather than encouraging participation in the Eucharist."
                            -----------------------
                            Why should a special occasion mean new music?
                            I'm willing to bet that at most arena liturgies one could find a Mass
                            setting already known to most with a common language on that continent
                            and a few months' notice for that it would be enough time to give those
                            unfamiliar a chance to brush up on the well-known piece. In Australia
                            and North America, the commons should be in English. In Europe or
                            Africa, why not use one of the classic Latin settings of the Kyriale?

                            Going back to Pius XII at least, the RCC has clearly taught that the
                            purpose of liturgical music is to enhance communal participation in the
                            texts. I suspect the arena Mass also encouraged the assembly to listen
                            to musicians a lot rather than encouraging musicians to accompany
                            congregational singing. In what ratio, at the arena Mass, was music
                            prepared ahead of time and presented by music ministers for the assembly
                            to hear versus music being sung by the entire assembly?

                            Enhanced accompaniment is certainly called for in an Arena Mass, but why
                            show off new music? Unnecessary expense and obstacle to full,
                            conscious, and active participation, it seems to me. The church is not
                            in the business of subsidizing musicians but of involving people in
                            public prayer.

                            I can say nothing about the other objectives of the trip, but it seems
                            to me that the liturgical practices described continue the pressure away
                            from all celebrating the Eucharist together and back toward the priest
                            being the only celebrant and others observing the specialists instead of
                            participating.

                            Tom Poelker
                            St. Louis, Missouri
                            USA
                            -- When you were born, you were crying
                            and everyone around you was smiling.
                            -- Live your life so at the end,
                            you're the one who is smiling and
                            everyone around you is crying.

                            mmonty@halenet. <mailto:mmonty%40halenet.com.au> com.au wrote:

                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@aim. <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com> com
                            <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>>
                            > To: <liturgy-l@yahoogrou <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                            <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com>>
                            > Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 10:59 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy
                            >
                            > > Why oh why, with such a mixed assembly from so many places, why
                            > introduce
                            > > a new musical composition for the commons of the Mass?>
                            >
                            > Because it was a special occasion.
                            >
                            > >
                            > > If the objective is full, conscious, and active participation, why have
                            > > opening night for a cultural event instead of using the most familiar
                            > > music, most likely to get the broadest participation?>
                            >
                            > Because most parishes have their own favourite setting for the Mass
                            > and it
                            > is very likely unknown to most of the visiting participants. All the
                            > participants had books in their own language and the responses for
                            > mass were
                            > very easily picked up by the congregation.
                            > As for full and active participation --- if you had seen the faces and
                            > attitudes of all those young people you would know they wer very actively
                            > involved in the whole event.
                            >
                            > > > Also, saw one newspaper article which described how crowd "adored"
                            > the
                            > > > pope. Heretical, to say the least.>
                            >
                            > That is just the typical press comment that shows the press hasn't
                            > much of a
                            > clue about the religious issues that kind of wording can bring up.
                            > The young people responded to everything they were being taught in the
                            > daily
                            > catechetical sessions and in the teaching of the Bishops and the Holy
                            > Father. They found it very easy to relate to him and showed their
                            > appreciation in the way young people do for someone they love.
                            > >
                            > > I hate how these events become personality cult, campaign stops for the
                            > > individual who holds the papacy. It seems they encourage the old
                            > > attitude of attending the Mass said by the pope rather than encouraging
                            > > participation in the Eucharist.>
                            >
                            > I wouldn't say that that applied to Benedict. His whole attitude was that
                            > of a pastoral visit to his flock. That it was such a big public event
                            > because of the numbers proved to be a blessing. All the Sydney siders
                            > were
                            > very impressed with the good behaviour of the pilgrims. Even the Police
                            > noted that the crime rate during that week was the lowest it had been
                            > for a
                            > long time.
                            >
                            > Overall the Christian witness given was excellent and the locals who
                            > hosted
                            > the pilgrims were very happy to have them. That included accomodation in
                            > various denominational schools and halls and even being guests in an
                            > Islamic
                            > school.
                            >
                            > The public witness to the Christian faith during that week made quite an
                            > impression on all. The cultural exchange can only be a source of peaceful
                            > co-operation in the future.
                            >
                            > Anyway, we will following up in the parish with the young people who
                            > attended the weeklong event. Will be interesting to see what the future
                            > brings.
                            > Peace...
                            > MaryM
                            >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Father Robert Lyons, SST
                            Earlier in this thread, I wrote: One thing I noticed, and that several bloggers commented upon, was the fact that the sung portions of the Mass in English
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 25, 2008
                              Earlier in this thread, I wrote:
                              "One thing I noticed, and that several bloggers commented upon, was the
                              fact that the sung portions of the Mass in English were all drawn from
                              the newly revised translation of the Ordinary of the Mass that is
                              forthcoming. The Vatican gave permission to use the new translation in
                              this setting, quite possibly as a full-scale test (though, since the
                              Ordinary is approved, I don't know for the life of me what they would
                              change in the wake of actually using it...)"

                              The New Liturgical Movement is reporting this afternoon that the NCCB
                              has recieved official word from Rome that the new translation of the
                              Order of the Mass has now been promulgated.

                              No word yet on when it will be put into widespread use, but it is now
                              the official translation.

                              Rob+
                            • Tom Poelker
                              The Kyriale was sung to a very traditional music---Gregorian Chant. Does that fit in with your view.? Yes, if the assembly majority can not be expected to
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 25, 2008
                                "The Kyriale was sung to a very traditional music---Gregorian Chant.
                                Does that fit in with your view.?"

                                Yes, if the assembly majority can not be expected to share one
                                vernacular language.

                                Tom Poelker
                                St. Louis, Missouri
                                USA
                                -- When you were born, you were crying
                                and everyone around you was smiling.
                                -- Live your life so at the end,
                                you're the one who is smiling and
                                everyone around you is crying.



                                mmonty@... wrote:

                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@... <mailto:TomPoelker%40aim.com>>
                                > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:21 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy
                                >
                                > > Most important sentence of original message which drew no response:
                                > > "It seems they encourage the old attitude of attending the Mass said by
                                > > the pope rather than encouraging participation in the Eucharist."?>
                                >
                                > I was under the impression that this comment was answered by my remarks
                                > about the obvious involvement of the youth in the prayers of the Mass etc.
                                > Apart from the fact that for the whole week there was daily Mass
                                > celebrated
                                > by the Priest's accompanying each group of pilgrims from their own
                                > country
                                > involving them in "full, conscious participation" in each of the
                                > liturgical
                                > events of the week.
                                >
                                > > > Why should a special occasion mean new music?
                                > > I'm willing to bet that at most arena liturgies one could find a Mass
                                > > setting already known to most with a common language on that
                                > continent and
                                > > a few months' notice for that it would be enough time to give those
                                > > unfamiliar a chance to brush up on the well-known piece.
                                > In Australia and North America, the commons should be in English. In
                                > Europe or Africa, why not use one of the classic Latin settings of the
                                > Kyriale?>
                                >
                                > Since we had people here for WYD from the areas you mention then
                                > obviously
                                > we did a good job of covering "all: the language groups you mention. You
                                > seem to have missed out on the fact that the largest groups of
                                > pilgrims here
                                > came from the Phillipines, Oceania, (Fiji, New Guinea, Samoa etc).
                                >
                                > The Kyriale was sung to a very traditional music---Gregorian Chant. Does
                                > that fit in with your view.
                                > >
                                > > Going back to Pius XII at least, the RCC has clearly taught that the
                                > > purpose of liturgical music is to enhance communal participation in the
                                > > texts. I suspect the arena Mass also encouraged the assembly to listen
                                > > to musicians a lot rather than encouraging musicians to accompany
                                > > congregational singing. In what ratio, at the arena Mass, was music
                                > > prepared ahead of time and presented by music ministers for the
                                > assembly
                                > > to hear versus music being sung by the entire assembly?
                                >
                                > All the common responses were sung by the congregation
                                > led by a cantor. Easily repeatable texts are also easily learned. All the
                                > pilgrims had copies of the liturgy in their own language with the music
                                > printed as well.
                                > >
                                > > Enhanced accompaniment is certainly called for in an Arena Mass, but
                                > why
                                > > show off new music? Unnecessary expense and obstacle to full,
                                > conscious,
                                > > and active participation, it seems to me. The church is not in the
                                > > business of subsidizing musicians but of involving people in
                                > public prayer.>
                                >
                                > None of the musicians were being subsidised but came from various
                                > Catholic
                                > organisations and choirs. The person who wrote the setting did so as a
                                > labour of love. Not requiring payment.
                                >
                                > > I can say nothing about the other objectives of the trip, but it
                                > seems to
                                > > me that the liturgical practices described continue the pressure away
                                > > from all celebrating the Eucharist together and back toward the priest
                                > > being the only celebrant and others observing the specialists
                                > instead of
                                > > participating.>
                                >
                                > From my observation (and I have observed very closely believe me) this
                                > was
                                > not the effect at all.
                                >
                                > Peace..
                                > MaryM (the odd Aussie)
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Tom Poelker
                                NCCB transformed itself several years ago into the USCCB by combining the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 25, 2008
                                  NCCB transformed itself several years ago into the USCCB by combining the
                                  National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the
                                  United States Catholic Conference into the
                                  United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, thus allowing themselves
                                  to consider all issues in meetings of one organization.

                                  Tom Poelker
                                  St. Louis, Missouri
                                  USA
                                  -- When you were born, you were crying
                                  and everyone around you was smiling.
                                  -- Live your life so at the end,
                                  you're the one who is smiling and
                                  everyone around you is crying.



                                  fatherroblyons@... wrote:

                                  > Earlier in this thread, I wrote:
                                  > "One thing I noticed, and that several bloggers commented upon, was the
                                  > fact that the sung portions of the Mass in English were all drawn from
                                  > the newly revised translation of the Ordinary of the Mass that is
                                  > forthcoming. The Vatican gave permission to use the new translation in
                                  > this setting, quite possibly as a full-scale test (though, since the
                                  > Ordinary is approved, I don't know for the life of me what they would
                                  > change in the wake of actually using it...)"
                                  >
                                  > The New Liturgical Movement is reporting this afternoon that the NCCB
                                  > has recieved official word from Rome that the new translation of the
                                  > Order of the Mass has now been promulgated.
                                  >
                                  > No word yet on when it will be put into widespread use, but it is now
                                  > the official translation.
                                  >
                                  > Rob+
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Simon Kershaw
                                  ... http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-108.shtml simon -- Simon Kershaw simon@kershaw.org.uk Saint Ives, Cambridgeshire
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 25, 2008
                                    Robert Lyons wrote:
                                    > The New Liturgical Movement is reporting this afternoon that the NCCB
                                    > has recieved official word from Rome that the new translation of the
                                    > Order of the Mass has now been promulgated.

                                    http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-108.shtml

                                    simon

                                    --
                                    Simon Kershaw
                                    simon@...
                                    Saint Ives, Cambridgeshire
                                  • MMonty
                                    I also recall it with fondness. Your sermon on the occasion was one of the best I have heard. Peace... MaryM ... From: Frank Senn To:
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 26, 2008
                                      I also recall it with fondness. Your sermon on the occasion was one of the
                                      best I have heard.
                                      Peace...
                                      MaryM

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...>
                                      To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 11:52 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Luminous Liturgy


                                      > And I can testify that Mary M the Aussie is a very sharp observer indeed.
                                      > Greetings, Mary. I remember your visit to the Lutheran church in Eight
                                      > Mile Plain near Brisbain when I preached there several years ago.
                                      >
                                      > Frank C. Senn
                                      >
                                      > MMonty <mmonty@...> wrote: From my
                                      > observation (and I have observed very closely believe me) this was
                                      > not the effect at all.
                                      >
                                      > Peace..
                                      > MaryM (the odd Aussie)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                                      > write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                                      > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • MMonty
                                      Father Robert, I doubt that the new translation was used at WYD as a test run. As far as I know the Aussie Bishops don t seem to have the problems with it
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jul 26, 2008
                                        Father Robert,
                                        I doubt that the new translation was used at WYD as a "test" run. As far as
                                        I know the Aussie Bishops don't seem to have the problems with it that the
                                        US Bishops seem to have.
                                        In any case it went very well and I have heard no complaints from any Aussie
                                        Catholics about it all.
                                        Peace..
                                        MaryM

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Father Robert Lyons, SST" <fatherroblyons@...>
                                        To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 6:41 AM
                                        Subject: [liturgy-l] New English Translation of the Roman Mass, was Re:
                                        Luminous Liturgy


                                        > Earlier in this thread, I wrote:
                                        > "One thing I noticed, and that several bloggers commented upon, was the
                                        > fact that the sung portions of the Mass in English were all drawn from
                                        > the newly revised translation of the Ordinary of the Mass that is
                                        > forthcoming. The Vatican gave permission to use the new translation in
                                        > this setting, quite possibly as a full-scale test (though, since the
                                        > Ordinary is approved, I don't know for the life of me what they would
                                        > change in the wake of actually using it...)"
                                        >
                                        > The New Liturgical Movement is reporting this afternoon that the NCCB
                                        > has recieved official word from Rome that the new translation of the
                                        > Order of the Mass has now been promulgated.
                                        >
                                        > No word yet on when it will be put into widespread use, but it is now
                                        > the official translation.
                                        >
                                        > Rob+
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                                        > write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                                        > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Douglas Cowling
                                        ... The oddest thing about recent papal liturgies has been the pope s innovation in using what commentators are calling basilica style : the pope celebrates
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jul 26, 2008
                                          On 7/23/08 10:21 PM, "Tom Poelker" <TomPoelker@...> wrote:

                                          > I can say nothing about the other objectives of the trip, but it seems
                                          > to me that the liturgical practices described continue the pressure away
                                          > from all celebrating the Eucharist together and back toward the priest
                                          > being the only celebrant and others observing the specialists instead of
                                          > participating.

                                          The oddest thing about recent papal liturgies has been the pope's innovation
                                          in using what commentators are calling "basilica style": the pope celebrates
                                          facing the people, no matter what the east-west orinetation of the altar,
                                          with a row of seven papal candlesticks and smaller cross between him and the
                                          assembly.

                                          I don't know who is advising him, but this altar arrangement was unknown
                                          outside the Roman basilicas which are oriented to the west not the east. In
                                          all other churches and always at outdoor masses, the celebrant faced east
                                          and the tall candles were against the wall.

                                          This new arrangement is a complete novelty in liturgical history. Worse,
                                          the pope now faces the people through what looks like prison bars. Frankly,
                                          I'd rather see him abandon ad populum completely and face east in Tridentine
                                          style.

                                          However there are very odd things afoot in Rome. At one extraordinatry mass
                                          in a westward-oriented basilica, the congregation crowded into the transepts
                                          so that they could have the celebrant with his back to them.

                                          Someone doesn't know their Roman history.


                                          Doug Cowling
                                          Director of Music
                                          St. Philip's Church, Toronto
                                        • James O'Regan
                                          McCall reconstructs an Ordo Romanus I and Gregorian sacramentary stationary papal mass in Do This. In his reconstruction and supported by ORI and Gregorian
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jul 26, 2008
                                            McCall reconstructs an Ordo Romanus I and Gregorian sacramentary
                                            stationary papal mass in Do This. In his reconstruction and supported
                                            by ORI and Gregorian evidence, the pope, in the 7th century to perhaps
                                            the 1oth century, faces the people behind the bars of a row of deacons
                                            who stand between the pope and the assembly, acting as a living rood
                                            screen of sorts and who also reply to the papal prayers in the prefatio.

                                            That would appear to be pretty good evidence of what Douglas is
                                            describing perhaps?

                                            I don't think McCall raises the question of orientation, since, as
                                            Doug notes, the basilicas are not oriented.

                                            All the best,

                                            James O'Regan
                                            oregan@...

                                            On 26-Jul-08, at 10:51 PM, Douglas Cowling wrote:

                                            > "basilica style": the pope celebrates
                                            > facing the people, no matter what the east-west orinetation of the
                                            > altar,
                                            > with a row of seven papal candlesticks and smaller cross between him
                                            > and the
                                            > assembly.
                                            >
                                            > ... this altar arrangement was unknown
                                            > outside the Roman basilicas which are oriented to the west not the
                                            > east. In
                                            > all other churches and always at outdoor masses, the celebrant faced
                                            > east
                                            > and the tall candles were against the wall.
                                            >
                                            > This new arrangement is a complete novelty in liturgical history.
                                            > Worse,
                                            > the pope now faces the people through what looks like prison bars.
                                            > Frankly,
                                            > I'd rather see him abandon ad populum completely and face east in
                                            > Tridentine
                                            > style.
                                          • cantor03@aol.com
                                            In a message dated 7/26/2008 10:50:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cowling.douglas@gmail.com writes: The oddest thing about recent papal liturgies has been the
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jul 27, 2008
                                              In a message dated 7/26/2008 10:50:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                              cowling.douglas@... writes:

                                              The oddest thing about recent papal liturgies has been the pope's innovation
                                              in using what commentators are calling "basilica style": the pope celebrates
                                              facing the people, no matter what the east-west orientation of the altar,
                                              with a row of seven papal candlesticks and smaller cross between him and the
                                              assembly. >>>>>>

                                              This fits in with his comments in his book, "The Spirit of the Liturgy,"
                                              in which he describes the versus populum style of celebration "a mistake,"
                                              but one that is sadly well established in the RCC. In that book he advises
                                              building new churches with ad orientem celebrations in mind, and to
                                              ameliorate the current "problem" with versus populum celebrations, a
                                              crucifix should be placed on the altar between the presider and the
                                              assembly so that there is a focal point other than the presider.

                                              In the book, he describes current versus populum celebrations as
                                              "a circle turned in on itself," and that versus populum celebrations
                                              can seem to be "all about the presider," since the congregation is
                                              staring at him and watching his every move.

                                              The book pretty well explains where the Pope is "coming from."


                                              David Strang.








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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Douglas Cowling
                                              ... You still see concelebrants in Eastern rites gathered in a circle around the altar. I don t think this what the pope is intending since he has already
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jul 27, 2008
                                                On 7/27/08 2:30 AM, "James O'Regan" <oregan@...> wrote:

                                                > In his reconstruction and supported
                                                > by ORI and Gregorian evidence, the pope, in the 7th century to perhaps
                                                > the 1oth century, faces the people behind the bars of a row of deacons
                                                > who stand between the pope and the assembly, acting as a living rood
                                                > screen of sorts and who also reply to the papal prayers in the prefatio.
                                                >
                                                > That would appear to be pretty good evidence of what Douglas is
                                                > describing perhaps?

                                                You still see concelebrants in Eastern rites gathered in a circle around the
                                                altar. I don't think this what the pope is intending since he has already
                                                reduced the number of concelebrants at papal masses.

                                                This use of the so-called "basilica style" is a novelty in liturgical
                                                history, unless you can show that medieval popes celebrated in like fashion.
                                                I'm pretty sure there was no "basilica style" at Avignon. Pius VII
                                                celebrated Tridentine-style at Napoleon's coronation.

                                                I assume that this is a transition to a return to eastward facing at all
                                                papal masses. He already has in the Sistine Chapel. It will be interesting
                                                to see when he also abandons the Pauline portable throne for the Liturgy of
                                                the Word. Last Good Friday, a Tridentine throne with cloth of honour was
                                                erected on the Gospel side. That too was a novelty in St. Peter's as papal
                                                masses were always celebrated from the throne in the apse.

                                                Doug Cowling
                                                Director of Music
                                                St. Philip's Church, Toronto
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