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RE: [liturgy-l] Re: 4 July prayer

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  • Mar Michael
    Except for our regular Matins, we have no special service for the 4th, but we do have a family liturgy for use on the 4th. It uses prayers and thanksgivings
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 1, 2008
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      Except for our regular Matins, we have no special service for the 4th, but
      we do have a family liturgy for use on the 4th. It uses prayers and
      thanksgivings for the nation from the 1979 BCP. This way those of our
      families who want to add prayer to their celebrations, can.



      Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach,



      +Michael Joe Thannisch



      _____

      From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Pastor Art Hebbeler
      Sent: 01 July 2008 11:06
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Re: 4 July prayer



      OK, as a veteran of the USAF, I come down on this issue a bit differently.

      1. I am an American and don't deny my country its place in my heart and
      loyalty. The Constitution which I swore to uphold and defend allows my
      brother Rob to have his POV.
      2. Having served in the military and attended both a military college and
      prep school, I understand the placing of the flag in the chapel space. I'm
      less bothered by that than some of the language issues we have kicked around
      here over the years. In my parish, there are no flags in the sanctuary
      (well, if we HAD our own sanctuary, it wouldn't be there).
      3. If the 4th of July is enough to remind ALL Christians to lift up our
      national, state, and local leaders in prayer at least one time a year, I
      have no issue with that. The freedom OF religion (not FROM religion) is the
      First Freedom of the First Amendment to our Constitution.
      4. In our school, each academic day begins with prayer, followed by the
      Pledge of Allegiance. Many of our students are immigrants (mostly African),
      and bluntly, their parents have a level of patriotic expression that expects
      the Pledge to be said, and I would do it anyway.

      I do not advocate for prayer in public schools. Whose prayers shall be
      offered? Whose theology shall be taught? Leave that for the church, where
      it belongs. I do not "celebrate" the 4th (or, with my Canadian friends and
      faculty, the 1st) of July liturgically. Yes, we will pray for the leaders of
      the US and Canada on Sunday, and for God to protect our nations. We might
      even sing "America," or "God of Our Fathers" as a hymn if it fits with the
      lectionary appointments, but probably not.

      Back to the very secular task of editing our Personnel Handbook for church
      and school employees.... (now, want to talk about government intrusion????)

      Peace in Christ
      Art

      --This message has been virus-checked prior to sending--


      _____

      From: liturgy-l@yahoogrou <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
      [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogrou <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
      Behalf
      Of Cfortunato@aol. <mailto:Cfortunato%40aol.com> com
      Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:45 AM
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogrou <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: 4 July prayer

      I'm really glad to see this thread. I don't go NEARLY as far as Rob+ does,
      but I DO think National Flags in a church are completely inappropriate. And,
      while I will GLADLY celebrate the 4th of July as a national holiday (unlike
      Rob), I think it has NO place as a Liturgical Feast honestly, I think that's
      a perversion of the liturgical calendar.

      And I'm actually afraid to say so: such sentiments are EXTREMELY unwelcome
      in this culture at this time - such sentiments get you verbally attacked and
      ostracized, in fact -? and I had felt rather alone with my opinion on the
      subject. It's odd that the term "Politically Correct" is used to attack
      people who simply use overly careful speech in an attempt to not offend -
      but NOT used to describe those who attempt to quell and stifle all dissent
      and all criticism of the actions of one's country.

      Thank you, Rob. I don't fully agree with you, but I'm glad you said it.

      Carl Fortunato

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Father Robert Lyons, SST <fatherroblyons@
      <mailto:fatherroblyons%40gmail.com> gmail.com>
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogrou <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
      Sent: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:18 am
      Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: 4 July prayer

      --- In liturgy-l@yahoogrou <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
      "Thomas R Jackson" <thomas@...>

      wrote:

      >

      > Interesting. Thanks for the lengthy reply. Wandering a bit off

      topic, but,

      > when traveling abroad, how were you able to return to the US

      without a

      > passport?

      >

      >

      >

      > Thomas

      Well, my conviction is recent (since 2001), and my last trip

      somewhere I needed a passport (UK) was in 1996. I have family in

      Canada, which, heretofore, has been accessable pretty freely. In

      2009, however, that changes. I am, at this time, exploring my

      options, including applying to the UN as a 'stateless' person.

      Even if I had to get a US passport, I'd still eschew US

      citizenship. I have also considered preparing my own passport just

      to make a point. Not sure yet how I'll handle that.

      I have considered using my ecclesiastical identification card and

      passing it off to a border agent as my 'passport' but I am not sure

      that would work either. Its still a touchy issue - impinging on

      human freedom to travel and connect with society vs. security which

      is a legitimate government concern. I don't have a perfect answer

      to it.

      In liturgy and in life, I have learned, there are few absolutes on

      this side of the grave - just best laid plans...

      Rob+

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Pastor Art Hebbeler
      OK, as a veteran of the USAF, I come down on this issue a bit differently. 1. I am an American and don t deny my country its place in my heart and loyalty.
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 1, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        OK, as a veteran of the USAF, I come down on this issue a bit differently.

        1. I am an American and don't deny my country its place in my heart and
        loyalty. The Constitution which I swore to uphold and defend allows my
        brother Rob to have his POV.
        2. Having served in the military and attended both a military college and
        prep school, I understand the placing of the flag in the chapel space. I'm
        less bothered by that than some of the language issues we have kicked around
        here over the years. In my parish, there are no flags in the sanctuary
        (well, if we HAD our own sanctuary, it wouldn't be there).
        3. If the 4th of July is enough to remind ALL Christians to lift up our
        national, state, and local leaders in prayer at least one time a year, I
        have no issue with that. The freedom OF religion (not FROM religion) is the
        First Freedom of the First Amendment to our Constitution.
        4. In our school, each academic day begins with prayer, followed by the
        Pledge of Allegiance. Many of our students are immigrants (mostly African),
        and bluntly, their parents have a level of patriotic expression that expects
        the Pledge to be said, and I would do it anyway.

        I do not advocate for prayer in public schools. Whose prayers shall be
        offered? Whose theology shall be taught? Leave that for the church, where
        it belongs. I do not "celebrate" the 4th (or, with my Canadian friends and
        faculty, the 1st) of July liturgically. Yes, we will pray for the leaders of
        the US and Canada on Sunday, and for God to protect our nations. We might
        even sing "America," or "God of Our Fathers" as a hymn if it fits with the
        lectionary appointments, but probably not.

        Back to the very secular task of editing our Personnel Handbook for church
        and school employees.... (now, want to talk about government intrusion????)

        Peace in Christ
        Art

        --This message has been virus-checked prior to sending--



        _____

        From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Cfortunato@...
        Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:45 AM
        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: 4 July prayer




        I'm really glad to see this thread. I don't go NEARLY as far as Rob+ does,
        but I DO think National Flags in a church are completely inappropriate. And,
        while I will GLADLY celebrate the 4th of July as a national holiday (unlike
        Rob), I think it has NO place as a Liturgical Feast honestly, I think that's
        a perversion of the liturgical calendar.

        And I'm actually afraid to say so: such sentiments are EXTREMELY unwelcome
        in this culture at this time - such sentiments get you verbally attacked and
        ostracized, in fact -? and I had felt rather alone with my opinion on the
        subject. It's odd that the term "Politically Correct" is used to attack
        people who simply use overly careful speech in an attempt to not offend -
        but NOT used to describe those who attempt to quell and stifle all dissent
        and all criticism of the actions of one's country.

        Thank you, Rob. I don't fully agree with you, but I'm glad you said it.

        Carl Fortunato

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Father Robert Lyons, SST <fatherroblyons@
        <mailto:fatherroblyons%40gmail.com> gmail.com>
        To: liturgy-l@yahoogrou <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
        Sent: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:18 am
        Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: 4 July prayer

        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogrou <mailto:liturgy-l%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
        "Thomas R Jackson" <thomas@...>

        wrote:

        >

        > Interesting. Thanks for the lengthy reply. Wandering a bit off

        topic, but,

        > when traveling abroad, how were you able to return to the US

        without a

        > passport?

        >

        >

        >

        > Thomas

        Well, my conviction is recent (since 2001), and my last trip

        somewhere I needed a passport (UK) was in 1996. I have family in

        Canada, which, heretofore, has been accessable pretty freely. In

        2009, however, that changes. I am, at this time, exploring my

        options, including applying to the UN as a 'stateless' person.

        Even if I had to get a US passport, I'd still eschew US

        citizenship. I have also considered preparing my own passport just

        to make a point. Not sure yet how I'll handle that.

        I have considered using my ecclesiastical identification card and

        passing it off to a border agent as my 'passport' but I am not sure

        that would work either. Its still a touchy issue - impinging on

        human freedom to travel and connect with society vs. security which

        is a legitimate government concern. I don't have a perfect answer

        to it.

        In liturgy and in life, I have learned, there are few absolutes on

        this side of the grave - just best laid plans...

        Rob+

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Providence Presbyterian Church
        Yes, I would like to second Carl s gratitude for Fr. Rob & this thread. Even though I have spent 20 years in the U.S. Air Force (retired in 1999-& would do it
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 1, 2008
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          Yes, I would like to second Carl's gratitude for Fr. Rob & this thread. Even though I have spent 20 years in the U.S. Air Force (retired in 1999-& would do it again if called upon!) I still agree that this is a needful point. Neither would I go as far as Fr. Rob has gone, but I do think that we must remind our folks (by word, sign, symbol & action) that our national citizenship is secondary to our Kingdom of Christ citizenship (for Scriptural background see Philippians 1.27 in the Greek [politeuesthe], coupled with 3.20). & ensuring that no national flag is in the nave or sanctuary is one way to do so.

          Our Scottish Presbyterian background [officially] doesn't allow for celebration of *any* extra holy-days except Sunday [see Westminster Confession of Faith 21.5-8]. So that's how I get away with not having any special services for Mother's Day, Father's Day, 4th of July, etc. As long as I'm consistent, there's been no real difficulty (at least none really voiced).

          Mike
          Pastor Michael Philliber
          Providence Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
          www.providencepca.net
          "Only a disciplined Church under a disciplined leadership can survive & meet the challenge of our times" [Ronald S. Wallace, "Calvin, Geneva & the Reformation", 301]
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Cfortunato@...
          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 10:45 AM
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: 4 July prayer



          I'm really glad to see this thread. I don't go NEARLY as far as Rob+ does, but I DO think National Flags in a church are completely inappropriate. And, while I will GLADLY celebrate the 4th of July as a national holiday (unlike Rob), I think it has NO place as a Liturgical Feast honestly, I think that's a perversion of the liturgical calendar.

          And I'm actually afraid to say so: such sentiments are EXTREMELY unwelcome in this culture at this time - such sentiments get you verbally attacked and ostracized, in fact -? and I had felt rather alone with my opinion on the subject. It's odd that the term "Politically Correct" is used to attack people who simply use overly careful speech in an attempt to not offend - but NOT used to describe those who attempt to quell and stifle all dissent and all criticism of the actions of one's country.

          Thank you, Rob. I don't fully agree with you, but I'm glad you said it.

          Carl Fortunato

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Father Robert Lyons, SST <fatherroblyons@...>
          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:18 am
          Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: 4 July prayer

          --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas R Jackson" <thomas@...>

          wrote:

          >

          > Interesting. Thanks for the lengthy reply. Wandering a bit off

          topic, but,

          > when traveling abroad, how were you able to return to the US

          without a

          > passport?

          >

          >

          >

          > Thomas

          Well, my conviction is recent (since 2001), and my last trip

          somewhere I needed a passport (UK) was in 1996. I have family in

          Canada, which, heretofore, has been accessable pretty freely. In

          2009, however, that changes. I am, at this time, exploring my

          options, including applying to the UN as a 'stateless' person.

          Even if I had to get a US passport, I'd still eschew US

          citizenship. I have also considered preparing my own passport just

          to make a point. Not sure yet how I'll handle that.

          I have considered using my ecclesiastical identification card and

          passing it off to a border agent as my 'passport' but I am not sure

          that would work either. Its still a touchy issue - impinging on

          human freedom to travel and connect with society vs. security which

          is a legitimate government concern. I don't have a perfect answer

          to it.

          In liturgy and in life, I have learned, there are few absolutes on

          this side of the grave - just best laid plans...

          Rob+

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Frank Senn
          The statement politicians have no more business sitting on a vestry than clergy of the Church have sitting in Oval Office is a little too restrictive for a
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 1, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            The statement "politicians have no more business sitting on a vestry than clergy of the Church have sitting in Oval Office" is a little too restrictive for a democratic republic. Undoubtedly during the times Washington was able to serve on church vestries, he was a gentleman farmer in the parish, not commander-in-chief. I would note that clergymen have, in fact, served in Congresses, beginning with the Continental, and not all resigned their calls to do so. Any of them could have been tapped to run for election to the Oval Office.

            One way or another, we do have to pray for rulers and those in authority, as the apostle admonishes us to do (1 Timothy 2).

            Frank C. Senn

            "Father Robert Lyons, SST" <fatherroblyons@...> wrote: --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Mar Michael" <mjthannisch@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I don't think we could call George Washington strictly a secular
            leader. He
            > founded several churches and was on the vestry of several
            churches, and was
            > a man of intense faith.
            >

            Perhaps, but with all due respect to Mr. Washington, politicians
            have no more business sitting on a vestry than clergy of the Church
            have sitting in Oval Office. The Church is the spiritual and
            liturgical home of the people of God, and their true home.

            If I was going to remotely consider a state prayer, it would be the
            Canadian one, not the American one, but that's not on my radar
            screen today or on the 4th.

            Just my point of view, of course.
            Rob+







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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