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Political Baptism

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  • Douglas Cowling
    From today s NY Times: Unlike Mr. Bush, Mr. McCain is decidedly reticent about religion on the stump. Mr. McCain grew up Episcopalian and shifted to a Baptist
    Message 1 of 11 , Jun 9, 2008
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      From today's NY Times:

      "Unlike Mr. Bush, Mr. McCain is decidedly reticent about religion on the
      stump. Mr. McCain grew up Episcopalian and shifted to a Baptist church after
      marrying his second wife, Cindy, but has not been baptized into the
      denomination."

      http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/us/politics/09mccain.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&o
      ref=slogin

      If the Times can't get it right ...


      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Toronto



      .
    • Pastor Art Hebbeler
      Doug Does this really surprise you? The NYT new slogan is, after all, All the news that s fit to our agenda. Add to that the complete lack of theological
      Message 2 of 11 , Jun 9, 2008
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        Doug

        Does this really surprise you? The NYT new slogan is, after all, "All the
        news that's fit to our agenda." Add to that the complete lack of theological
        education in most parts these days, and it's not a surprise that someone
        would (a) write that sentence and (b) miss it in the editing process.

        The Times wouldn't know right if its left arm were cut off...

        Peace in Christ
        Art

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      • Lewis Whitaker
        What does a mistake about theology (or church practice) have to do with a supposed left wing slant? I assume that s the point you re making, Art? I don t get
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 9, 2008
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          What does a mistake about theology (or church practice) have to do with a
          supposed left wing slant? I assume that's the point you're making, Art? I
          don't "get" the claim that the Times is leftist....

          Lew


          On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 9:26 AM, Pastor Art Hebbeler <
          pastor@...> wrote:

          > Doug
          >
          > Does this really surprise you? The NYT new slogan is, after all, "All the
          > news that's fit to our agenda." Add to that the complete lack of
          > theological
          > education in most parts these days, and it's not a surprise that someone
          > would (a) write that sentence and (b) miss it in the editing process.
          >
          > The Times wouldn't know right if its left arm were cut off...
          >
          > Peace in Christ
          > Art
          >
          > --This message has been virus-checked prior to sending--
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
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        • Pastor Art Hebbeler
          Lew: I wasn t clear...there were two thoughts in the message. One that the Times is clueless and the other referred to its leanings in content. Mea culpa. I
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 9, 2008
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            Lew:

            I wasn't clear...there were two thoughts in the message. One that the Times
            is clueless and the other referred to its leanings in content.

            Mea culpa. I should have left of the political commentary.

            Peace in Christ
            Art

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          • Cfortunato@aol.com
            It s worded wrong, but it seems to be making a valid observation: If Senator McCain was baptized as an infant in the Episcopal Church, his wife s Baptist
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 9, 2008
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              It's worded wrong, but it seems to be making a valid observation: If Senator McCain was baptized as an infant in the Episcopal Church, his wife's Baptist Church would not regard him as being baptized at all, and would require rebaptism by immersion in order to fully include him as a member.

              -----Original Message-----

              From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
              Subj: [liturgy-l] Political Baptism
              Date: Mon Jun 9, 2008 9:02 am
              Size: 11K
              To: Liturgy-Well-Done <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>

              From today's NY Times:

              "Unlike Mr. Bush, Mr. McCain is decidedly reticent about religion on the
              stump. Mr. McCain grew up Episcopalian and shifted to a Baptist church after
              marrying his second wife, Cindy, but has not been baptized into the
              denomination."

              http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/us/politics/09mccain.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&o
              ref=slogin

              If the Times can't get it right ...

              Doug Cowling
              Director of Music
              St. Philip's Church, Toronto

              .
            • dlewisaao@aol.com
              There is little doubt per its reputation that the Times is leftist, but in this case I don t think that their political slant is at issue. The more I think of
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 9, 2008
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                There is little doubt per its reputation that the Times is leftist, but in
                this case I don't think that their political slant is at issue.

                The more I think of it, there are some Protestant churches that do not
                baptize infants, and in Sen McCain's case he was probably baptized in the
                Episcopal Church as an infant and it would not surprise me that the Baptists do not
                recognize baptisms other than those of adults who make their covenant on their
                own. And, from what I'm told, until recent years Roman Catholics did not
                recognize baptisms from other denominations, witness the Luci Johnson Nugent
                situation.

                David Lewis


                In a message dated 6/9/2008 10:00:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                lhwhitaker@... writes:

                What does a mistake about theology (or church practice) have to do with a
                supposed left wing slant? I assume that's the point you're making, Art? I
                don't "get" the claim that the Times is leftist....





                **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
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              • ferrellsd@mindspring.com
                I have seen this story before. McCain s Baptist pastor has been pressuring him to be baptized. He believes one has to be baptized as an adult for the baptism
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 9, 2008
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                  I have seen this story before. McCain's Baptist pastor has been pressuring him to be baptized. He believes one has to be baptized as an adult for the baptism to be valid. McCain hasn't done so. "Baptized into the denomination" is clumsy, and doesn't convey what needs to be said. That said, even if The Times leans left, I shouldn't think it has anything to do with their left leaning posture. Its more likely a case of the media not understanding religion, which happens all the time. Take for example Tom Brokaw talking about the "Episcopalian Church" and "Episcopals." They can't even call us by the right names. Hauerwas and Willimon were right. We are "Resident Aliens."

                  Perhaps part of the difficulty is that the story is in the politics section and not the religion section.....

                  Sean+


                  -----Original Message-----
                  >From: Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...>
                  >Sent: Jun 9, 2008 8:02 AM
                  >To: Liturgy-Well-Done <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Subject: [liturgy-l] Political Baptism
                  >
                  >From today's NY Times:
                  >
                  >"Unlike Mr. Bush, Mr. McCain is decidedly reticent about religion on the
                  >stump. Mr. McCain grew up Episcopalian and shifted to a Baptist church after
                  >marrying his second wife, Cindy, but has not been baptized into the
                  >denomination."
                  >
                  >http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/us/politics/09mccain.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&o
                  >ref=slogin
                  >
                  >If the Times can't get it right ...
                  >
                  >
                  >Doug Cowling
                  >Director of Music
                  >St. Philip's Church, Toronto
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Douglas Cowling
                  On 6/9/08 11:17 AM, ferrellsd@mindspring.com ... I thought Episcopals was an online dating service ... Doug Cowling Director of
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 9, 2008
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                    On 6/9/08 11:17 AM, "ferrellsd@..." <ferrellsd@...>
                    wrote:

                    > Take for example Tom Brokaw talking about the "Episcopalian Church" and
                    > "Episcopals."


                    I thought "Episcopals" was an online dating service ...


                    Doug Cowling
                    Director of Music
                    St. Philip's Church, Toronto
                  • asteresplanetai
                    +++ Posted by: Douglas Cowling cowling.douglas@gmail.com ... yeah but only for bishops. regards, john burnett
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 9, 2008
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                      +++

                      Posted by: "Douglas Cowling" cowling.douglas@...

                      >> Take for example Tom Brokaw talking about the "Episcopalian Church"
                      >> and
                      >> "Episcopals."
                      >
                      > I thought "Episcopals" was an online dating service ...


                      yeah but only for bishops.



                      regards,

                      john burnett
                    • bpglenn
                      Awkward wording but still correct. Most Baptist churches only recognize immersion done after a person reaches an age to understand the rite. Baptist theology
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 12, 2008
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                        Awkward wording but still correct. Most Baptist churches only recognize
                        immersion done after a person reaches an age to understand the rite.
                        Baptist theology simplified: 1. Understand that one is a sinner. 2. Make
                        a decision to follow Christ and accept him as personal saviour. 3.
                        Request baptism by immersion from a Baptist congregation.

                        Almost all of the Baptist churches I belonged to even "baptized" persons
                        who had been immersed by other denominations such as Disciples of Christ.

                        Glenn

                        Douglas Cowling wrote:
                        >>From today's NY Times:
                        >
                        > "Unlike Mr. Bush, Mr. McCain is decidedly reticent about religion on the
                        > stump. Mr. McCain grew up Episcopalian and shifted to a Baptist church after
                        > marrying his second wife, Cindy, but has not been baptized into the
                        > denomination."
                        >
                        > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/us/politics/09mccain.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&o
                        > ref=slogin
                        >
                        > If the Times can't get it right ...
                        >
                        >
                        > Doug Cowling
                        > Director of Music
                        > St. Philip's Church, Toronto
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > .
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                        > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
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                      • Nathan Nettleton
                        ... While there are certainly Baptists who have been that isolationist, such a practice would be more common in the USA and especially among the churches of
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 17, 2008
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                          On 12/06/2008, at 11:27 PM, bpglenn wrote:

                          > Almost all of the Baptist churches I belonged to even "baptized"
                          > persons
                          > who had been immersed by other denominations such as Disciples of
                          > Christ.

                          While there are certainly Baptists who have been that isolationist,
                          such a practice would be more common in the USA and especially among
                          the churches of the Southern Baptist Convention than it would
                          elsewhere in the Baptist world.

                          Elsewhere it would be unusual for baptists not to recognise an adult
                          immersion baptism. Many would also have no qualms about an adult
                          baptism by another mode, and a growing minority would also now
                          recognise a baptism carried out in infancy, especially if followed by
                          adequate catechesis and a mature profession of faith (the reformed
                          understanding of confirmation?).

                          Peace and hope,

                          Nathan
                          ______________________________________
                          Nathan Nettleton
                          Pastor, South Yarra Community Baptist Church
                          Melbourne, Australia
                          nathan@...
                          ______________________________________



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