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RE: Fw: Re: [liturgy-l] Advent Wreath Direction?

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  • Ormonde Plater
    This reminds me of something Thomas Talley once said, that the introduction of Advent wreaths with their colored candles was a plot by candle-manufacturers. We
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 3, 2007
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      This reminds me of something Thomas Talley once said, that the introduction
      of Advent wreaths with their colored candles was a plot by
      candle-manufacturers.



      We have this discussion every Advent, but I guess it's necessary.



      Ormonde Plater

      oplater@...



      From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Frank Senn
      Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:35 AM
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: Fw: Re: [liturgy-l] Advent Wreath Direction?



      This is beginning to sound like the Sarum Use had Advent wreaths that used
      blue candles. I don't think that is what is intended by the writers. I doubt
      that medieval Salisbury knew about Advent wreaths. Moreover, bringing
      wreaths into churches and doing something with them is a relatively recent
      development, maybe since the 1950s. They were home decorations. I don't know
      how much this custom was known outside of Germany before modern times. I've
      been in Sweden during Advent and didn't see any wreaths. They have their own
      Yule candles in their homes. German Lutherans and Catholics took the custom
      with them when they emigrated. Maybe Queen Victoria's Prince Albert brought
      Advent wreaths to England along with the Christmas tree (a Rhenish custom).

      Frank C. Senn





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    • Ormonde Plater
      I just remembered: The church where I currently serve has those fake candles for the Advent wreath. So you don t have to buy new candles every year. You re
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 3, 2007
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        I just remembered: The church where I currently serve has those fake candles
        for the Advent wreath. So you don't have to buy new candles every year.
        You're just hooked for life in buying the liquid stuff that goes in them.



        Ormonde Plater

        oplater@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Janet Roth
        Ick. Is the Pascal Candle also a liquid oil thingie? One of the neighboring parishes has one. I guess I understand the reasoning, but it s not the
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 3, 2007
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          Ick. Is the Pascal Candle also a liquid oil thingie? One of the
          neighboring parishes has one. I guess I understand the reasoning,
          but it's not the same....
          Janet

          On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:15 AM, Ormonde Plater wrote:

          > I just remembered: The church where I currently serve has those
          > fake candles
          > for the Advent wreath. So you don't have to buy new candles every
          > year.
          > You're just hooked for life in buying the liquid stuff that goes in
          > them.
          >
          > Ormonde Plater



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tom Poelker
          I suspect that the bringing the advent wreath into the churches came with the tendency of seeing the interior decoration of the church as a ministry and the
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 3, 2007
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            I suspect that the bringing the advent wreath into the churches came
            with the tendency of seeing the interior decoration of the church as a
            ministry and the subsequent formation of environment committees. There
            seems to be a bureaucratic genetic need of people in organizations to
            multiply the things they do. It was no longer enough to place the
            pendiments (sp?) with the proper color and elaboration for the feast and
            season. There was a feeling of need to do something "more". All
            seasons experienced the searching around for "traditional" "symbols" of
            the seasons which could be elaborated in "decorations."

            If it is not already clear, I dislike the home decorator approach to
            liturgical furnishings almost as much as I hate the artistic self
            expression approach.

            Regardless, the Jesse Tree and the Advent Wreath were seized as usable
            "traditions" by those who wanted to "decorate" the church and they were
            imported into the sanctuary from the school and home, or so do I see it.

            Tom Poelker
            St. Louis, Missouri
            USA
            -- When you were born, you were crying
            and everyone around you was smiling.
            -- Live your life so at the end,
            you're the one who is smiling and
            everyone around you is crying.



            fcsenn@... wrote:

            > This is beginning to sound like the Sarum Use had Advent wreaths that
            > used blue candles. I don't think that is what is intended by the
            > writers. I doubt that medieval Salisbury knew about Advent wreaths.
            > Moreover, bringing wreaths into churches and doing something with them
            > is a relatively recent development, maybe since the 1950s. They were
            > home decorations. I don't know how much this custom was known outside
            > of Germany before modern times. I've been in Sweden during Advent and
            > didn't see any wreaths. They have their own Yule candles in their
            > homes. German Lutherans and Catholics took the custom with them when
            > they emigrated. Maybe Queen Victoria's Prince Albert brought Advent
            > wreaths to England along with the Christmas tree (a Rhenish custom).
            >
            > Frank C. Senn
            >
            > dlewisaao@... <mailto:dlewisaao%40aol.com> wrote: Sarum is blue
            > for all four Sundays.
            >
            > That being said, one can certainly use the historic Introits,
            > including the
            > one for Gaudete Sunday, even if one uses Sarum color. For that matter, is
            > there is any reason not to?
            >
            > David Lewis
            >
            >
            > In a message dated 12/2/2007 7:15:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            > aspern@... <mailto:aspern%40mindspring.com> writes:
            >
            > The Sarum sequence didn't use a rose candle for Advent III?
            >
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            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sean W. Reed
            ... I share your feelings. Our parish is (always has been) a rather high Anglo-Catholic parish. After factoring in the labor to keep up with the oil filled
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 3, 2007
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              --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Janet Roth <jproth@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ick. Is the Pascal Candle also a liquid oil thingie? One of the
              > neighboring parishes has one. I guess I understand the reasoning,
              > but it's not the same....
              > Janet
              >


              I share your feelings. Our parish is (always has been) a rather high
              Anglo-Catholic parish. After factoring in the labor to keep up with
              the oil filled candles, we have found them simply not worth the effort
              except in limited places.

              For our acolyte's torches and the weekday Low Mass candles they work
              well for us. The ones we have, are the same size as the candle
              followers, so one really can not tell other than these never get shorter.

              For the rest of the candles (and we have a lot) the long term payback
              we decided was not worth the labor of keeping up with them. The six
              large candles can not really even be reached without taking them down.
              Using 51% beeswax we figured we could pay for the change in about 2
              years, but could not "afford" the labor to keep them all filled 2-3
              times a month for some, others weekly.

              With the regular candles, there is never a problem with knowing how
              long they will burn.

              Have any others considered the oil filled and chosen not to use them?


              Faithfully,

              Sean W. Reed
              http://www.saintbarnabas.net
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