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RE: [liturgy-l] BCP Latin Mass in San Fran - YouTube

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  • George Carlson
    Somehow, a Latin version of a BCP Mass seems like an ultimate oxymoron . unless, of course, you have a LOT of VERY old Romans (from Rome, not RC) in your
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 5, 2007
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      Somehow, a Latin version of a BCP Mass seems like an ultimate oxymoron .
      unless, of course, you have a LOT of VERY old Romans (from Rome, not RC) in
      your parish.

      In omnibus pax,

      George Carlson

      St. Paul's (TEC), Murfreesboro, TN





      _____

      From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Scott Knitter
      Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 11:32 AM
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [liturgy-l] BCP Latin Mass in San Fran - YouTube



      The liturgy of the Word in two parts:

      http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcdfVbKmFkY>
      com/watch?v=EcdfVbKmFkY
      http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POgylDNW5PY>
      com/watch?v=POgylDNW5PY

      Texts here: pp. 209ff.
      http://justus.
      <http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Latin1979/LPP_07_Eucharist.doc>
      anglican.org/resources/bcp/Latin1979/LPP_07_Eucharist.doc

      --
      Scott R. Knitter
      Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
      http://glenwoodplac <http://glenwoodplace.blogspot.com> e.blogspot.com





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Steve Benner
      The rest has been posted if you follow the link to Cantuariensis (the poster). Truly interesting. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 5, 2007
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        The rest has been posted if you follow the link to Cantuariensis (the
        poster). Truly interesting.


        At 10/5/2007 12:32 PM, Scott Knitter wrote:

        >The liturgy of the Word in two parts:
        >
        ><http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcdfVbKmFkY>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcdfVbKmFkY
        >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POgylDNW5PY
        >
        >Texts here: pp. 209ff.
        ><http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Latin1979/LPP_07_Eucharist.doc>http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Latin1979/LPP_07_Eucharist.doc
        >
        >--
        >Scott R. Knitter
        >Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
        ><http://glenwoodplace.blogspot.com>http://glenwoodplace.blogspot.com
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sean Ferrell
        (sarcasm) Seems to be really drawing a crowd. (/sarcasm) If you watch some of the other videos it looks like there are about 10 folks in the congregation. As I
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 5, 2007
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          (sarcasm) Seems to be really drawing a crowd. (/sarcasm)

          If you watch some of the other videos it looks like there are about 10
          folks in the congregation.

          As I recall, the only circumstances Anglicans have traditionally been
          allowed to use Latin liturgically according to church law, was in the
          context of a university.

          Sean+

          The Rev. Sean Ferrell, Rector
          Saint Luke's Episcopal Church
          Jackson, TN

          Sent from my iPhone

          On Oct 5, 2007, at 11:32 AM, "Scott Knitter" <scottknitter@...>
          wrote:

          > The liturgy of the Word in two parts:
          >
          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcdfVbKmFkY
          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POgylDNW5PY
          >
          > Texts here: pp. 209ff.
          > http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Latin1979/
          > LPP_07_Eucharist.doc
          >
          > --
          > Scott R. Knitter
          > Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
          > http://glenwoodplace.blogspot.com
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Douglas Cowling
          ... The Latin BCP was first issued in 1562 and intended primarily for royal and collegiate churches. There is still an annual Latin service in St. Mary the
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 5, 2007
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            On 10/5/07 2:59 PM, "George Carlson" <vistantn@...> wrote:

            > Somehow, a Latin version of a BCP Mass seems like an ultimate oxymoron .
            > unless, of course, you have a LOT of VERY old Romans (from Rome, not RC) in
            > your parish.

            The Latin BCP was first issued in 1562 and intended primarily for royal and
            collegiate churches. There is still an annual Latin service in St. Mary the
            Virgin, the University Church of Oxford. Several Oxbridge colleges have
            continous traditions of occasional services in Latin, the rationale being
            that Latin was a "vernacular" lanaguage at the universities. I've never
            seen any evidence the Greek BCP was ever used liturgically. There are
            several settings of Renaissance Latin texts which are now recognized as
            being used with the Latin BCP rather than the Sarum rite (the Tallis
            Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis is the best example).


            Doug Cowling
            Director of Music
            St. Philip's Church, Toronto
          • Ormonde Plater
            As I recall, one or more of the 16th century BCPs had a Latin version for the guys at Oxford and Cambridge, since Latin was the vernacular (at least
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 5, 2007
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              As I recall, one or more of the 16th century BCPs had a Latin version for
              the guys at Oxford and Cambridge, since Latin was the vernacular (at least
              officially) in those places.



              Ormonde Plater





              From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of George Carlson
              Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 1:59 PM
              To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] BCP Latin Mass in San Fran - YouTube



              Somehow, a Latin version of a BCP Mass seems like an ultimate oxymoron .
              unless, of course, you have a LOT of VERY old Romans (from Rome, not RC) in
              your parish.

              In omnibus pax,

              George Carlson

              St. Paul's (TEC), Murfreesboro, TN





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Scott Knitter
              The schola is chanting way too slowly. They ve been watching too much EWTN. This is in my category of I m glad someone is doing this, but I don t think
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 5, 2007
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                The schola is chanting way too slowly. They've been watching too much EWTN.

                This is in my category of "I'm glad someone is doing this, but I don't
                think anyone else needs to do it." I feel that way about some of the
                things done in liturgies at St Gregory of Nyssa, San Fran, as well.

                On 10/5/07, Sean Ferrell <ferrellsd@...> wrote:

                > If you watch some of the other videos it looks like there are about 10
                > folks in the congregation.

                --
                Scott R. Knitter
                Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
                http://glenwoodplace.blogspot.com
              • Chris McConnell
                ... version for ... least ... The 1549 also had to be translated into Latin so Bucer could read it and give his evaluation of it in the Censura. He taught at
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 5, 2007
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                  --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ormonde Plater" <oplater@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > As I recall, one or more of the 16th century BCPs had a Latin
                  version for
                  > the guys at Oxford and Cambridge, since Latin was the vernacular (at
                  least
                  > officially) in those places.

                  The 1549 also had to be translated into Latin so Bucer could read it
                  and give his evaluation of it in the Censura. He taught at Cambridge,
                  but couldn't speak any English.

                  Chris
                • Chris McConnell
                  ... much EWTN. Amen that ... not just way too slowly, but way too evenly. You can practically put stems on those notes and make them straight quarter notes
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 5, 2007
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                    --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Knitter" <scottknitter@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > The schola is chanting way too slowly. They've been watching too
                    much EWTN.

                    Amen that ... not just way too slowly, but way too evenly. You can
                    practically put stems on those notes and make them straight quarter
                    notes and half notes. It makes it absolutely dreary, IMHO.

                    Chris
                  • DJP4LAW@aol.com
                    Doug, if you told me that there s an Old Byzantine BCP setting or that St. John Chrysostom wrote one, I d believe it without question. You - with so many
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 5, 2007
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                      Doug, if you told me that there's an Old Byzantine BCP setting or that St. John Chrysostom wrote one, I'd believe it without question. You - with so many others - are an inestimable gift to this list.





                      Peace
                      Dwight Penas
                      Minneapolis
                      ____________________________
                      I DISTRUST those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. -- Susan B. Anthony






                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Douglas Cowling <dcowling@...>
                      To: Liturgy-Well-Done <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 4:00 pm
                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] BCP Latin Mass in San Fran - YouTube

























                      On 10/5/07 2:59 PM, "George Carlson" <vistantn@...> wrote:



                      > Somehow, a Latin version of a BCP Mass seems like an ultimate oxymoron .

                      > unless, of course, you have a LOT of VERY old Romans (from Rome, not RC) in

                      > your parish.



                      The Latin BCP was first issued in 1562 and intended primarily for royal and

                      collegiate churches. There is still an annual Latin service in St. Mary the

                      Virgin, the University Church of Oxford. Several Oxbridge colleges have

                      continous traditions of occasional services in Latin, the rationale being

                      that Latin was a "vernacular" lanaguage at the universities. I've never

                      seen any evidence the Greek BCP was ever used liturgically. There are

                      several settings of Renaissance Latin texts which are now recognized as

                      being used with the Latin BCP rather than the Sarum rite (the Tallis

                      Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis is the best example).



                      Doug Cowling

                      Director of Music

                      St. Philip's Church, Toronto





















                      ________________________________________________________________________
                      Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Frank Senn
                      This translation of the 1549 Prayer Book was important because it also served as the basis of the Latin version used in the universities AND in Ireland. The
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 6, 2007
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                        This translation of the 1549 Prayer Book was important because it also served as the basis of the Latin version used in the universities AND in Ireland. The Irish complained that English wasn't their vernacular. So until a Gaelic translation of the Bible and Prayer Book could be made available (both were needed for Protestant worship), permission was given to use the Latin version of the Prayer Book. Countless priests then "counterfeited" the Roman Mass, which helped the people remain Catholic until priests educated at Louvain could return to Ireland and hold the true Roman Mass in barns and cellars.

                        Frank C. Senn

                        Chris McConnell <cdmcconnell@...> wrote: --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ormonde Plater" <oplater@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > As I recall, one or more of the 16th century BCPs had a Latin
                        version for
                        > the guys at Oxford and Cambridge, since Latin was the vernacular (at
                        least
                        > officially) in those places.

                        The 1549 also had to be translated into Latin so Bucer could read it
                        and give his evaluation of it in the Censura. He taught at Cambridge,
                        but couldn't speak any English.

                        Chris






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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