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Re: [liturgy-l] Jesuita non cantat

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  • Frank Senn
    The Society of Jesus was the first religious order to explicitly give up the choral recitation of the Divine Office in favor of private recitation. The Jesuits
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 6, 2007
      The Society of Jesus was the first religious order to explicitly give up the choral recitation of the Divine Office in favor of private recitation.

      The Jesuits were into popular devotions during Holy Week rather than the historic liturgies of the Triduum. If I'm not mistaken, Jesuits in Peru in the 17th century invented the Three Hour Good Friday devotion based on the Seven Words of Jesus on the Cross.

      As the Benedictines were in the forefront of the recovery of the more ancient practices in the 19th and early 20th centuries, the Jesuits were clinging to Counter-Reformation practices. And why not? The Jesuits WERE the Counter-Reformation.

      Frank C. Senn

      Douglas Cowling <dcowling@...> wrote: Does anyone know the source of the Benedictine jokes:

      "Jesuita non cantat" -- Jesuits can't sing (loose translation)

      and ...

      "As lost as a Jesuit in Holy Week"

      Douglas Cowling
      Director of Music
      St. Philip's Church, Toronto

      "Yes, I am haunted as it were, by phantoms of the past; I have inoculated
      myself with the seductive poison of the Liturgy; it now runs through my
      spiritual veins and I shall never be rid of it. Church services affect me
      as morphine affects a drug taker."

      Jori-Karl Huysmans, novel: "L'Oblat"

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Douglas Cowling
      ... The popular Good Friday devotions such as the Three Hours with its preaching tradition and Tenebrae with its incomparable musical tradition had enormous
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 6, 2007
        On 8/6/07 9:16 PM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...> wrote:

        > The Jesuits were into popular devotions during Holy Week rather than the
        > historic liturgies of the Triduum. If I'm not mistaken, Jesuits in Peru in
        > the 17th century invented the Three Hour Good Friday devotion based on the
        > Seven Words of Jesus on the Cross.


        The popular Good Friday devotions such as the Three Hours with its preaching
        tradition and Tenebrae with its incomparable musical tradition had enormous
        indirect influence on Protestant Holy Week worship. Even today, many
        Protestant churches have services which emphasize preaching and major
        musical events.

        Haydn wrote an exquiste series of string quartet movements to be played
        after each of the seven sermons on the Last Words. One very cold and damp
        Good Friday, I sat in Avignon Cathedral when the devotion was given a
        modern reconstruction, albeit with poetry and prose selcetions replacing the
        sermons. I think it is the perfect non-liturgical devotion.

        Even Luther inherited a tradition for preaching non-stop for eight hours on
        Good Friday and large-scale Passion music. Bach's four-hour services were
        no novelty.

        Douglas Cowling
        Director of Music
        St. Philip's Church, Toronto

        "Yes, I am haunted as it were, by phantoms of the past; I have inoculated
        myself with the seductive poison of the Liturgy; it now runs through my
        spiritual veins and I shall never be rid of it. Church services affect me
        as morphine affects a drug taker."

        Jori-Karl Huysmans, novel: "L'Oblat"



        "




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael
        There is also a Swedish Litany (presumably Lutheran) for use after the lessons or sermons of the 7 last words. Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach, +Mar Michael
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 6, 2007
          There is also a Swedish Litany (presumably Lutheran) for use after the
          lessons or sermons of the 7 last words.





          Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach,



          +Mar Michael Abportus

          Bishop of La Porte

          Pastor: Congregation Benim Avraham

          mjthannisch@...

          http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/

          281-303-3671

          _____

          From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Douglas Cowling
          Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 8:44 PM
          To: Liturgy-Well-Done
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Jesuita non cantat



          On 8/6/07 9:16 PM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@sbcglobal.
          <mailto:fcsenn%40sbcglobal.net> net> wrote:

          > The Jesuits were into popular devotions during Holy Week rather than the
          > historic liturgies of the Triduum. If I'm not mistaken, Jesuits in Peru in
          > the 17th century invented the Three Hour Good Friday devotion based on the
          > Seven Words of Jesus on the Cross.

          The popular Good Friday devotions such as the Three Hours with its preaching
          tradition and Tenebrae with its incomparable musical tradition had enormous
          indirect influence on Protestant Holy Week worship. Even today, many
          Protestant churches have services which emphasize preaching and major
          musical events.

          Haydn wrote an exquiste series of string quartet movements to be played
          after each of the seven sermons on the Last Words. One very cold and damp
          Good Friday, I sat in Avignon Cathedral when the devotion was given a
          modern reconstruction, albeit with poetry and prose selcetions replacing the
          sermons. I think it is the perfect non-liturgical devotion.

          Even Luther inherited a tradition for preaching non-stop for eight hours on
          Good Friday and large-scale Passion music. Bach's four-hour services were
          no novelty.

          Douglas Cowling
          Director of Music
          St. Philip's Church, Toronto

          "Yes, I am haunted as it were, by phantoms of the past; I have inoculated
          myself with the seductive poison of the Liturgy; it now runs through my
          spiritual veins and I shall never be rid of it. Church services affect me
          as morphine affects a drug taker."

          Jori-Karl Huysmans, novel: "L'Oblat"

          "

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • asteresplanetai
          ... i believe jesuita would be proper-- words which, when translated into english, would end in -ite (or -it , in this case) (e.g., israelita ,
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 7, 2007
            On 2007 Aug 7, at 13:46, liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com wrote:

            > Posted by: "Douglas Cowling" dcowling@...
            >
            > Does anyone know the source of the Benedictine jokes:
            >
            > "Jesuita non cantat" -- Jesuits can't sing (loose translation)
            >
            > and ...
            >
            > "As lost as a Jesuit in Holy Week"
            >
            > Posted by: "Tom Poelker" TomPoelker@... tapoelker
            >
            > Not only can't the Jesuit sing, but that looks like a feminine
            > singular
            > to go with the singular verb.
            > Or should it be "cantant" and be a neuter plural.
            > Either way, it looks to me like a calculated insult, but I came so
            > close
            > to failing Latin that passing was somewhat of a gift from the teacher.


            i believe jesuita would be proper-- words which, when translated into
            english, would end in "-ite" (or '-it', in this case) (e.g.,
            'israelita', "israelite") normally have the form in latin of "-ita"
            or sometimes the old greek ending of "-ites". They ought also to have
            a greek schedule of endings in the oblique cases as well, but don't
            always do so. They are usually masculine, despite belonging to the a-
            declension.

            But jesuita would be singular.

            And the phrase says, "A Jesuit does not sing". "Can't sing" would be
            "cantare non potest".

            In the plural you'd have to say "Jesuitae (or Jesuites, not sure how
            they prefer it) non cantant", or "cantare non possunt".

            can't tell you what the source of the phrase is, but suspect the
            benedictines!

            Regards from cloudy kampala,

            johnburnett
          • Art Hebbeler
            Actually, the Haydn was originally for piano, then for string quartet. In it s original form, the preacher (the bishop if I recall correctly) intoned the
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 7, 2007
              Actually, the Haydn was originally for piano, then for string quartet. In
              it's original form, the preacher (the bishop if I recall correctly) intoned
              the selected text from the Seven Last Words, and then the piano part began,
              with the preacher kneeling in prayer throughout.

              Here at Abiding Presence, we have adopted this as our Good Friday daytime
              observance, and though I don't intone the text, it is read, then there is
              silence followed by a brief homily, then the appropriate movement, then
              prayer and silence. After the 7th movement, the 8th and final
              ("Earthquake") begins immediately without intervention. That is followed by
              silence, the Bidding Prayer, and departure in silence/time for private
              meditation. Depending on the long-windedness of the preacher (sometimes I
              have colleagues come and share the preaching), it's about 2-1/2 hours.


              Art Hebbeler

              --This message has been virus-checked prior to sending--

              | -----Original Message-----
              | From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of Douglas
              | Cowling
              | Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:44 PM
              | To: Liturgy-Well-Done
              | Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Jesuita non cantat
              |
              | On 8/6/07 9:16 PM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...> wrote:
              |
              | > The Jesuits were into popular devotions during Holy Week rather than the
              | > historic liturgies of the Triduum. If I'm not mistaken, Jesuits in Peru
              in
              | > the 17th century invented the Three Hour Good Friday devotion based on
              the
              | > Seven Words of Jesus on the Cross.
              |
              |
              | The popular Good Friday devotions such as the Three Hours with its
              preaching
              | tradition and Tenebrae with its incomparable musical tradition had
              enormous
              | indirect influence on Protestant Holy Week worship. Even today, many
              | Protestant churches have services which emphasize preaching and major
              | musical events.
              |
              | Haydn wrote an exquiste series of string quartet movements to be played
              | after each of the seven sermons on the Last Words. One very cold and damp
              | Good Friday, I sat in Avignon Cathedral when the devotion was given a
              | modern reconstruction, albeit with poetry and prose selcetions replacing
              the
              | sermons. I think it is the perfect non-liturgical devotion.
              |
              | Even Luther inherited a tradition for preaching non-stop for eight hours
              on
              | Good Friday and large-scale Passion music. Bach's four-hour services were
              | no novelty.
              |
              | Douglas Cowling
              | Director of Music
              | St. Philip's Church, Toronto
              |
              | "Yes, I am haunted as it were, by phantoms of the past; I have inoculated
              | myself with the seductive poison of the Liturgy; it now runs through my
              | spiritual veins and I shall never be rid of it. Church services affect me
              | as morphine affects a drug taker."
              |
              | Jori-Karl Huysmans, novel: "L'Oblat"
              |
              |
              |
              | "
              |
              |
              |
              |
              | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              |
              |
              |
              | Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
              write to the
              | owners/moderators, please send an email to:
              | liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
              | Yahoo! Groups Links
              |
              |
              |
            • Douglas Cowling
              ... Hmmm .... There are three versions: quartet, orchestra and choir & orchestra. I don t think there was a piano version. According to the records, the
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 7, 2007
                On 8/7/07 12:46 PM, "Art Hebbeler" <ahebbeler@...> wrote:

                > Actually, the Haydn was originally for piano, then for string quartet. In
                > it's original form, the preacher (the bishop if I recall correctly) intoned
                > the selected text from the Seven Last Words, and then the piano part began,
                > with the preacher kneeling in prayer throughout


                Hmmm .... There are three versions: quartet, orchestra and choir &
                orchestra. I don't think there was a piano version. According to the
                records, the preacher recited one of the Last Words in the pulpit and
                delivered a sermon. He then descended to kneel silently before the altar
                while the music played. He then returned to the pulpit for the second word,
                and so on through seven sermons. The final movement was a depiction of the
                earthquake at the Crucifixion.

                Doug Cowling
                Director of Music
                St. Philip's Church, Toronto
              • dlewisaao@aol.com
                In a message dated 8/7/2007 1:19:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dcowling@sympatico.ca writes: Hmmm .... There are three versions: quartet, orchestra and choir
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 7, 2007
                  In a message dated 8/7/2007 1:19:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  dcowling@... writes:

                  Hmmm .... There are three versions: quartet, orchestra and choir &
                  orchestra. I don't think there was a piano version. According to the
                  records, the preacher recited one of the Last Words in the pulpit and
                  delivered a sermon. He then descended to kneel silently before the altar
                  while the music played. He then returned to the pulpit for the second word,
                  and so on through seven sermons. The final movement was a depiction of the
                  earthquake at the Crucifixion.




                  I wonder if one possible liturgical use for this creation, in addition to
                  the daytime Good Friday use already mentioned, might be in lieu of Wednesday
                  evening Tenebrae?

                  David Lewis




                  ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                  http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Douglas Cowling
                  ... I guess I m more doctrinaire about what is liturgical and what is devotional. I think it is wrong to liturgify devotions like Advent Wreaths or the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 7, 2007
                    On 8/7/07 1:40 PM, "dlewisaao@..." <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                    > I wonder if one possible liturgical use for this creation, in addition to
                    > the daytime Good Friday use already mentioned, might be in lieu of Wednesday
                    > evening Tenebrae?
                    >
                    > David Lewis

                    I guess I'm more doctrinaire about what is liturgical and what is
                    devotional. I think it is wrong to liturgify devotions like Advent Wreaths
                    or the Rosary. They are personal, spontaneous, creative and -- gasp! -- a
                    time for private prayer. They provide a balance to the official liturgy.
                    The Haydn Seven Last Words was a reflective, meditative time after the drama
                    and hard work of the Good Friday Liturgy. I put informal jazz vespers in
                    the same category. Do we have to have a printed official order every time
                    we go into church?

                    Doug Cowling
                    Director of Music
                    St. Philip's Church, Toronto
                  • Frank Senn
                    This was probably also in lieu of doing the historic Good Friday Liturgy at its appropriate time. Remember that the historic liturgies of the Triduum were
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 8, 2007
                      This was probably also in lieu of doing the historic Good Friday Liturgy at its appropriate time. Remember that the historic liturgies of the Triduum were never taken off the books. They were simply done in the mornings of Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday so as not to get in the way of popular devotions. And some people are now saying that liturgical reform wasn't needed!

                      Frank C. Senn

                      dlewisaao@... wrote:
                      In a message dated 8/7/2007 1:19:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      dcowling@... writes:

                      Hmmm .... There are three versions: quartet, orchestra and choir &
                      orchestra. I don't think there was a piano version. According to the
                      records, the preacher recited one of the Last Words in the pulpit and
                      delivered a sermon. He then descended to kneel silently before the altar
                      while the music played. He then returned to the pulpit for the second word,
                      and so on through seven sermons. The final movement was a depiction of the
                      earthquake at the Crucifixion.

                      I wonder if one possible liturgical use for this creation, in addition to
                      the daytime Good Friday use already mentioned, might be in lieu of Wednesday
                      evening Tenebrae?

                      David Lewis


                      ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                      http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Douglas Cowling
                      I just noticed that Francis did not chant the papal blessing. Maybe the Benedictines are right: As confused as a Jesuit in Holy Week. Does anyone recognize
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 13, 2013
                        I just noticed that Francis did not chant the papal blessing. 

                        Maybe the Benedictines are right: "As confused as a Jesuit in Holy Week."

                        Does anyone recognize the hymn that the band played just before the balcony scene: all the Italians were singing it quite lustily. It didn't sound like the Marche Pontificale by Gounod, but I couldn't hear it over the commentators.

                        Doug Cowling
                        Director of Music
                        St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                        Toronto

                      • Lewis Whitaker
                        The chorus of the Hebrew slaves from Nabucco? On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 9:53 PM, Douglas Cowling
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 13, 2013
                          The chorus of the Hebrew slaves from Nabucco?


                          On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 9:53 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:


                          I just noticed that Francis did not chant the papal blessing. 

                          Maybe the Benedictines are right: "As confused as a Jesuit in Holy Week."

                          Does anyone recognize the hymn that the band played just before the balcony scene: all the Italians were singing it quite lustily. It didn't sound like the Marche Pontificale by Gounod, but I couldn't hear it over the commentators.

                          Doug Cowling
                          Director of Music
                          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                          Toronto




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