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Re: Jesuita non cantat

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  • Chris McConnell
    ... Not all first declension nouns are feminine -- almost, but not all. Chris
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 6, 2007
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      --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Tom Poelker <TomPoelker@...> wrote:
      >
      > Not only can't the Jesuit sing, but that looks like a feminine singular
      > to go with the singular verb.

      Not all first declension nouns are feminine -- almost, but not all.

      Chris
    • Frank Senn
      The Society of Jesus was the first religious order to explicitly give up the choral recitation of the Divine Office in favor of private recitation. The Jesuits
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 6, 2007
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        The Society of Jesus was the first religious order to explicitly give up the choral recitation of the Divine Office in favor of private recitation.

        The Jesuits were into popular devotions during Holy Week rather than the historic liturgies of the Triduum. If I'm not mistaken, Jesuits in Peru in the 17th century invented the Three Hour Good Friday devotion based on the Seven Words of Jesus on the Cross.

        As the Benedictines were in the forefront of the recovery of the more ancient practices in the 19th and early 20th centuries, the Jesuits were clinging to Counter-Reformation practices. And why not? The Jesuits WERE the Counter-Reformation.

        Frank C. Senn

        Douglas Cowling <dcowling@...> wrote: Does anyone know the source of the Benedictine jokes:

        "Jesuita non cantat" -- Jesuits can't sing (loose translation)

        and ...

        "As lost as a Jesuit in Holy Week"

        Douglas Cowling
        Director of Music
        St. Philip's Church, Toronto

        "Yes, I am haunted as it were, by phantoms of the past; I have inoculated
        myself with the seductive poison of the Liturgy; it now runs through my
        spiritual veins and I shall never be rid of it. Church services affect me
        as morphine affects a drug taker."

        Jori-Karl Huysmans, novel: "L'Oblat"

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Douglas Cowling
        ... The popular Good Friday devotions such as the Three Hours with its preaching tradition and Tenebrae with its incomparable musical tradition had enormous
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 6, 2007
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          On 8/6/07 9:16 PM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...> wrote:

          > The Jesuits were into popular devotions during Holy Week rather than the
          > historic liturgies of the Triduum. If I'm not mistaken, Jesuits in Peru in
          > the 17th century invented the Three Hour Good Friday devotion based on the
          > Seven Words of Jesus on the Cross.


          The popular Good Friday devotions such as the Three Hours with its preaching
          tradition and Tenebrae with its incomparable musical tradition had enormous
          indirect influence on Protestant Holy Week worship. Even today, many
          Protestant churches have services which emphasize preaching and major
          musical events.

          Haydn wrote an exquiste series of string quartet movements to be played
          after each of the seven sermons on the Last Words. One very cold and damp
          Good Friday, I sat in Avignon Cathedral when the devotion was given a
          modern reconstruction, albeit with poetry and prose selcetions replacing the
          sermons. I think it is the perfect non-liturgical devotion.

          Even Luther inherited a tradition for preaching non-stop for eight hours on
          Good Friday and large-scale Passion music. Bach's four-hour services were
          no novelty.

          Douglas Cowling
          Director of Music
          St. Philip's Church, Toronto

          "Yes, I am haunted as it were, by phantoms of the past; I have inoculated
          myself with the seductive poison of the Liturgy; it now runs through my
          spiritual veins and I shall never be rid of it. Church services affect me
          as morphine affects a drug taker."

          Jori-Karl Huysmans, novel: "L'Oblat"



          "




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael
          There is also a Swedish Litany (presumably Lutheran) for use after the lessons or sermons of the 7 last words. Shalom b Yeshua haMoshiach, +Mar Michael
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 6, 2007
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            There is also a Swedish Litany (presumably Lutheran) for use after the
            lessons or sermons of the 7 last words.





            Shalom b'Yeshua haMoshiach,



            +Mar Michael Abportus

            Bishop of La Porte

            Pastor: Congregation Benim Avraham

            mjthannisch@...

            http://www.freewebs.com/childrenofabraham/

            281-303-3671

            _____

            From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Douglas Cowling
            Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 8:44 PM
            To: Liturgy-Well-Done
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Jesuita non cantat



            On 8/6/07 9:16 PM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@sbcglobal.
            <mailto:fcsenn%40sbcglobal.net> net> wrote:

            > The Jesuits were into popular devotions during Holy Week rather than the
            > historic liturgies of the Triduum. If I'm not mistaken, Jesuits in Peru in
            > the 17th century invented the Three Hour Good Friday devotion based on the
            > Seven Words of Jesus on the Cross.

            The popular Good Friday devotions such as the Three Hours with its preaching
            tradition and Tenebrae with its incomparable musical tradition had enormous
            indirect influence on Protestant Holy Week worship. Even today, many
            Protestant churches have services which emphasize preaching and major
            musical events.

            Haydn wrote an exquiste series of string quartet movements to be played
            after each of the seven sermons on the Last Words. One very cold and damp
            Good Friday, I sat in Avignon Cathedral when the devotion was given a
            modern reconstruction, albeit with poetry and prose selcetions replacing the
            sermons. I think it is the perfect non-liturgical devotion.

            Even Luther inherited a tradition for preaching non-stop for eight hours on
            Good Friday and large-scale Passion music. Bach's four-hour services were
            no novelty.

            Douglas Cowling
            Director of Music
            St. Philip's Church, Toronto

            "Yes, I am haunted as it were, by phantoms of the past; I have inoculated
            myself with the seductive poison of the Liturgy; it now runs through my
            spiritual veins and I shall never be rid of it. Church services affect me
            as morphine affects a drug taker."

            Jori-Karl Huysmans, novel: "L'Oblat"

            "

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • asteresplanetai
            ... i believe jesuita would be proper-- words which, when translated into english, would end in -ite (or -it , in this case) (e.g., israelita ,
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 7, 2007
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              On 2007 Aug 7, at 13:46, liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com wrote:

              > Posted by: "Douglas Cowling" dcowling@...
              >
              > Does anyone know the source of the Benedictine jokes:
              >
              > "Jesuita non cantat" -- Jesuits can't sing (loose translation)
              >
              > and ...
              >
              > "As lost as a Jesuit in Holy Week"
              >
              > Posted by: "Tom Poelker" TomPoelker@... tapoelker
              >
              > Not only can't the Jesuit sing, but that looks like a feminine
              > singular
              > to go with the singular verb.
              > Or should it be "cantant" and be a neuter plural.
              > Either way, it looks to me like a calculated insult, but I came so
              > close
              > to failing Latin that passing was somewhat of a gift from the teacher.


              i believe jesuita would be proper-- words which, when translated into
              english, would end in "-ite" (or '-it', in this case) (e.g.,
              'israelita', "israelite") normally have the form in latin of "-ita"
              or sometimes the old greek ending of "-ites". They ought also to have
              a greek schedule of endings in the oblique cases as well, but don't
              always do so. They are usually masculine, despite belonging to the a-
              declension.

              But jesuita would be singular.

              And the phrase says, "A Jesuit does not sing". "Can't sing" would be
              "cantare non potest".

              In the plural you'd have to say "Jesuitae (or Jesuites, not sure how
              they prefer it) non cantant", or "cantare non possunt".

              can't tell you what the source of the phrase is, but suspect the
              benedictines!

              Regards from cloudy kampala,

              johnburnett
            • Art Hebbeler
              Actually, the Haydn was originally for piano, then for string quartet. In it s original form, the preacher (the bishop if I recall correctly) intoned the
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 7, 2007
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                Actually, the Haydn was originally for piano, then for string quartet. In
                it's original form, the preacher (the bishop if I recall correctly) intoned
                the selected text from the Seven Last Words, and then the piano part began,
                with the preacher kneeling in prayer throughout.

                Here at Abiding Presence, we have adopted this as our Good Friday daytime
                observance, and though I don't intone the text, it is read, then there is
                silence followed by a brief homily, then the appropriate movement, then
                prayer and silence. After the 7th movement, the 8th and final
                ("Earthquake") begins immediately without intervention. That is followed by
                silence, the Bidding Prayer, and departure in silence/time for private
                meditation. Depending on the long-windedness of the preacher (sometimes I
                have colleagues come and share the preaching), it's about 2-1/2 hours.


                Art Hebbeler

                --This message has been virus-checked prior to sending--

                | -----Original Message-----
                | From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Douglas
                | Cowling
                | Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 9:44 PM
                | To: Liturgy-Well-Done
                | Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Jesuita non cantat
                |
                | On 8/6/07 9:16 PM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...> wrote:
                |
                | > The Jesuits were into popular devotions during Holy Week rather than the
                | > historic liturgies of the Triduum. If I'm not mistaken, Jesuits in Peru
                in
                | > the 17th century invented the Three Hour Good Friday devotion based on
                the
                | > Seven Words of Jesus on the Cross.
                |
                |
                | The popular Good Friday devotions such as the Three Hours with its
                preaching
                | tradition and Tenebrae with its incomparable musical tradition had
                enormous
                | indirect influence on Protestant Holy Week worship. Even today, many
                | Protestant churches have services which emphasize preaching and major
                | musical events.
                |
                | Haydn wrote an exquiste series of string quartet movements to be played
                | after each of the seven sermons on the Last Words. One very cold and damp
                | Good Friday, I sat in Avignon Cathedral when the devotion was given a
                | modern reconstruction, albeit with poetry and prose selcetions replacing
                the
                | sermons. I think it is the perfect non-liturgical devotion.
                |
                | Even Luther inherited a tradition for preaching non-stop for eight hours
                on
                | Good Friday and large-scale Passion music. Bach's four-hour services were
                | no novelty.
                |
                | Douglas Cowling
                | Director of Music
                | St. Philip's Church, Toronto
                |
                | "Yes, I am haunted as it were, by phantoms of the past; I have inoculated
                | myself with the seductive poison of the Liturgy; it now runs through my
                | spiritual veins and I shall never be rid of it. Church services affect me
                | as morphine affects a drug taker."
                |
                | Jori-Karl Huysmans, novel: "L'Oblat"
                |
                |
                |
                | "
                |
                |
                |
                |
                | [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                |
                |
                |
                | Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                write to the
                | owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                | liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                | Yahoo! Groups Links
                |
                |
                |
              • Douglas Cowling
                ... Hmmm .... There are three versions: quartet, orchestra and choir & orchestra. I don t think there was a piano version. According to the records, the
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 7, 2007
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                  On 8/7/07 12:46 PM, "Art Hebbeler" <ahebbeler@...> wrote:

                  > Actually, the Haydn was originally for piano, then for string quartet. In
                  > it's original form, the preacher (the bishop if I recall correctly) intoned
                  > the selected text from the Seven Last Words, and then the piano part began,
                  > with the preacher kneeling in prayer throughout


                  Hmmm .... There are three versions: quartet, orchestra and choir &
                  orchestra. I don't think there was a piano version. According to the
                  records, the preacher recited one of the Last Words in the pulpit and
                  delivered a sermon. He then descended to kneel silently before the altar
                  while the music played. He then returned to the pulpit for the second word,
                  and so on through seven sermons. The final movement was a depiction of the
                  earthquake at the Crucifixion.

                  Doug Cowling
                  Director of Music
                  St. Philip's Church, Toronto
                • dlewisaao@aol.com
                  In a message dated 8/7/2007 1:19:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dcowling@sympatico.ca writes: Hmmm .... There are three versions: quartet, orchestra and choir
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 7, 2007
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                    In a message dated 8/7/2007 1:19:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    dcowling@... writes:

                    Hmmm .... There are three versions: quartet, orchestra and choir &
                    orchestra. I don't think there was a piano version. According to the
                    records, the preacher recited one of the Last Words in the pulpit and
                    delivered a sermon. He then descended to kneel silently before the altar
                    while the music played. He then returned to the pulpit for the second word,
                    and so on through seven sermons. The final movement was a depiction of the
                    earthquake at the Crucifixion.




                    I wonder if one possible liturgical use for this creation, in addition to
                    the daytime Good Friday use already mentioned, might be in lieu of Wednesday
                    evening Tenebrae?

                    David Lewis




                    ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                    http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Douglas Cowling
                    ... I guess I m more doctrinaire about what is liturgical and what is devotional. I think it is wrong to liturgify devotions like Advent Wreaths or the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 7, 2007
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                      On 8/7/07 1:40 PM, "dlewisaao@..." <dlewisaao@...> wrote:

                      > I wonder if one possible liturgical use for this creation, in addition to
                      > the daytime Good Friday use already mentioned, might be in lieu of Wednesday
                      > evening Tenebrae?
                      >
                      > David Lewis

                      I guess I'm more doctrinaire about what is liturgical and what is
                      devotional. I think it is wrong to liturgify devotions like Advent Wreaths
                      or the Rosary. They are personal, spontaneous, creative and -- gasp! -- a
                      time for private prayer. They provide a balance to the official liturgy.
                      The Haydn Seven Last Words was a reflective, meditative time after the drama
                      and hard work of the Good Friday Liturgy. I put informal jazz vespers in
                      the same category. Do we have to have a printed official order every time
                      we go into church?

                      Doug Cowling
                      Director of Music
                      St. Philip's Church, Toronto
                    • Frank Senn
                      This was probably also in lieu of doing the historic Good Friday Liturgy at its appropriate time. Remember that the historic liturgies of the Triduum were
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 8, 2007
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                        This was probably also in lieu of doing the historic Good Friday Liturgy at its appropriate time. Remember that the historic liturgies of the Triduum were never taken off the books. They were simply done in the mornings of Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday so as not to get in the way of popular devotions. And some people are now saying that liturgical reform wasn't needed!

                        Frank C. Senn

                        dlewisaao@... wrote:
                        In a message dated 8/7/2007 1:19:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        dcowling@... writes:

                        Hmmm .... There are three versions: quartet, orchestra and choir &
                        orchestra. I don't think there was a piano version. According to the
                        records, the preacher recited one of the Last Words in the pulpit and
                        delivered a sermon. He then descended to kneel silently before the altar
                        while the music played. He then returned to the pulpit for the second word,
                        and so on through seven sermons. The final movement was a depiction of the
                        earthquake at the Crucifixion.

                        I wonder if one possible liturgical use for this creation, in addition to
                        the daytime Good Friday use already mentioned, might be in lieu of Wednesday
                        evening Tenebrae?

                        David Lewis


                        ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                        http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Douglas Cowling
                        I just noticed that Francis did not chant the papal blessing. Maybe the Benedictines are right: As confused as a Jesuit in Holy Week. Does anyone recognize
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 13 6:53 PM
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                          I just noticed that Francis did not chant the papal blessing. 

                          Maybe the Benedictines are right: "As confused as a Jesuit in Holy Week."

                          Does anyone recognize the hymn that the band played just before the balcony scene: all the Italians were singing it quite lustily. It didn't sound like the Marche Pontificale by Gounod, but I couldn't hear it over the commentators.

                          Doug Cowling
                          Director of Music
                          St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                          Toronto

                        • Lewis Whitaker
                          The chorus of the Hebrew slaves from Nabucco? On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 9:53 PM, Douglas Cowling
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 13 6:57 PM
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                            The chorus of the Hebrew slaves from Nabucco?


                            On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 9:53 PM, Douglas Cowling <cowling.douglas@...> wrote:


                            I just noticed that Francis did not chant the papal blessing. 

                            Maybe the Benedictines are right: "As confused as a Jesuit in Holy Week."

                            Does anyone recognize the hymn that the band played just before the balcony scene: all the Italians were singing it quite lustily. It didn't sound like the Marche Pontificale by Gounod, but I couldn't hear it over the commentators.

                            Doug Cowling
                            Director of Music
                            St. Philip's Church, Etobicoke
                            Toronto




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