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Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Eucharistic Prayer-From Gregory of Nazianzus

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  • michaelphilliber
    Sean, Thanks. But I thought that even for your tradition that though the substance changes, the accidents stay the same? Even the East recognizes the partakers
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 1, 2007
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      Sean,

      Thanks. But I thought that even for your tradition that though the substance
      changes, the accidents stay the same?

      Even the East recognizes the partakers are partaking of bread, etc. From the
      liturgy of St. Basil (http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/basil
      asp):

      "Priest: And unite us all to one another who become partakers of the one
      Bread and the Cup in the communion of the one Holy Spirit. Grant that none
      of us may partake of the holy Body and Blood of Your Christ to judgment or
      condemnation; but, that we may find mercy and grace with all the saints who
      through the ages have pleased You: forefathers, fathers, patriarchs,
      prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, teachers,
      and every righteous spirit made perfect in faith."

      Maybe I missed something...

      Again, thanks for your feedback. It really is helpful. Love the St. Michael
      Photo Gallery.

      Mike
      Pastor Michael Philliber
      New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
      "For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God;
      and where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church,
      and every kind of grace; but the Spirit is truth."
      St. Irenaeus 3.24.1
      www.newlifepca.org
    • Sean W. Reed
      ... substance ... From our perspective, you have it exactly right - the substance changes but the accidents (appearances or species)remain. The appearance is
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 1, 2007
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        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "michaelphilliber" <newlifepca@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Sean,
        >
        > Thanks. But I thought that even for your tradition that though the
        substance
        > changes, the accidents stay the same? ..."

        From our perspective, you have it exactly right - the substance
        changes but the accidents (appearances or species)remain. The
        appearance is bread and wine but the whole substance is the Body,
        Blood, soul, and divinity of Christ.

        Our old friend St. Thomas Aquinas does an awesome job of telling us
        about it in Summa Theologica Q 75,2; which if you are interested you
        can find at http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4075.htm#2

        I recently ran across an interesting piece by St. Cyril of Jerusalem,
        (circa 315-386) writing about 1100 years before St. Thomas who said:

        "The bread and wine of the Eucharist were simple bread and wine before
        the invocation of the holy and adorable Trinity, but when the
        invocation has taken place the bread becomes the body of Christ and
        the wine the blood of Christ..."*

        "The seeming bread is not bread even though it is sensible to the
        taste, but the body of Christ, and the seeming wine is not wine, even
        though the taste will have it so, but the blood of Christ..."**


        * "Catechetical Lectures 19"

        ** "Catechetical Lectures 22"


        Faithfully,

        Sean Reed

        Sean W. Reed, a/SSM
        Member of the Council
        Society of St. Michael
        http://www.anglocatholic.net/ssm
      • Theodore Lorah
        The difficulty with the doctrine of transubstantiation, which was passed at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, is twofold. One is that it does not represent
        Message 3 of 3 , Aug 1, 2007
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          The difficulty with the doctrine of transubstantiation, which was
          passed at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, is twofold. One is
          that it does not represent the Orthodox understanding, who equally
          believe in Real presence. The second is that it is based on
          Aristotelian science, whic no one believes anymore. I don't object
          to Real presence. I embrace it and absolutely believe it, although I
          want a Eucharistic Prayer with a sound epiclesis, something missing
          from many RC prayers. But we need to begin describing this
          differently from "Substance" and "Accidents."

          Ted Lorah

          On Aug 1, 2007, at 8:04 AM, Sean W. Reed wrote:

          > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "michaelphilliber" <newlifepca@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Sean,
          > >
          > > Thanks. But I thought that even for your tradition that though the
          > substance
          > > changes, the accidents stay the same? ..."
          >
          > From our perspective, you have it exactly right - the substance
          > changes but the accidents (appearances or species)remain. The
          > appearance is bread and wine but the whole substance is the Body,
          > Blood, soul, and divinity of Christ.
          >
          > Our old friend St. Thomas Aquinas does an awesome job of telling us
          > about it in Summa Theologica Q 75,2; which if you are interested you
          > can find at http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4075.htm#2
          >
          > I recently ran across an interesting piece by St. Cyril of Jerusalem,
          > (circa 315-386) writing about 1100 years before St. Thomas who said:
          >
          > "The bread and wine of the Eucharist were simple bread and wine before
          > the invocation of the holy and adorable Trinity, but when the
          > invocation has taken place the bread becomes the body of Christ and
          > the wine the blood of Christ..."*
          >
          > "The seeming bread is not bread even though it is sensible to the
          > taste, but the body of Christ, and the seeming wine is not wine, even
          > though the taste will have it so, but the blood of Christ..."**
          >
          > * "Catechetical Lectures 19"
          >
          > ** "Catechetical Lectures 22"
          >
          > Faithfully,
          >
          > Sean Reed
          >
          > Sean W. Reed, a/SSM
          > Member of the Council
          > Society of St. Michael
          > http://www.anglocatholic.net/ssm
          >
          >
          >



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