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Eucharistic Prayer-Fromm Gregory of Nazianzus

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  • Michael Philliber
    Here s the prayer I crafted for this coming Sunday. This is the prayer for the Eucharist. I m looking for some helpful feedback. The source is Gregory of
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 31 9:43 AM
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      Here's the prayer I crafted for this coming Sunday. This is the prayer for the Eucharist. I'm looking for some helpful feedback. The source is Gregory of Nazianzus' 3rd Theological Oration 'On The Son'.

      "We gather round this table to thank You, Holy Lord God, because according to Your good pleasure & desire, Your blessed Son, Jesus Christ gave Himself for us, that He might deliver us from this present evil age. & we ponder the mystery of our faith: for what He was [from eternity] He continued to be; & yet what He was not He took to Himself. He took our human flesh & united it with God, forming a single entity with himself. He is before all things, & by Him all things consist, yet he was carried in a virgin's womb, born of the water, blood & agony of birth, & wrapped in swaddling clothes. He was baptized as Man--but He washed away our sins as God. [.] He was tempted as Man, but He conquered as God; & He bids us be of good cheer, for He has overcome the world. He hungered--but He fed thousands & He is the Bread that gives life which came down from heaven. He thirsted--but He cried, "If any man thirst let him come unto Me and drink." & He promised that springs of living water would flow from them that believe. He was wearied, but He is the Rest for them that are weary and heavy laden. [.]. He wept, but He causes tears to cease. He asked where Lazarus was laid, for He was Man; but He raised Lazarus, for He was God. He was sold, dirt cheap, only for thirty pieces of silver; but He redeems the world, and that at a great price, for the Price was His own blood. As a sheep He is led to the slaughter, but He is the Shepherd of Israel and now of the whole world also. [.]. He is bruised and wounded, but He heals every disease and every infirmity. He is lifted up and nailed to the Tree, but by the Tree of Life He restores us. He even saves the Bandit crucified with Him; [.]. He lays down His life, but He has power to take it again; and the veil is rent, for the mysterious doors of Heaven are opened; [.]. He dies, but He gives life, and by His death destroys death. He is buried, but He rises again; He goes down into Hell, but He rescues the imprisoned; He ascends to Heaven, and shall come again to judge the living and the dead, [.]. He was the descendant of David according to the flesh, but declared the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. O Lord, You have taken our breath away! Now send Your Holy breath, The Spirit of Christ, that as we eat & drink this bread & wine, we may truly & really commune with the body & blood of our Savior, Your Son, for our health, life, holiness & joy! Amen."

      Cheers,

      Mike
      The Rev'd Dr. Michael Philliber,
      Pastor, Daddy, Hubby, & Drinker of St. Arnold's Amber Ale!
      New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
      "[...] God is communion, not impersonal diffusion"
      (Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism).

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Dornheim
      Where are the words of institution? John Dornheim ... When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to step off into the darkness of the
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 31 9:48 AM
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        Where are the words of institution?
        John Dornheim
        On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:43 PM, Michael Philliber wrote:

        > Here's the prayer I crafted for this coming Sunday. This is the prayer
        > for the Eucharist. I'm looking for some helpful feedback. The source
        > is Gregory of Nazianzus' 3rd Theological Oration 'On The Son'.
        >
        > "We gather round this table to thank You, Holy Lord God, because
        > according to Your good pleasure & desire, Your blessed Son, Jesus
        > Christ gave Himself for us, that He might deliver us from this present
        > evil age. & we ponder the mystery of our faith: for what He was [from
        > eternity] He continued to be; & yet what He was not He took to
        > Himself. He took our human flesh & united it with God, forming a
        > single entity with himself. He is before all things, & by Him all
        > things consist, yet he was carried in a virgin's womb, born of the
        > water, blood & agony of birth, & wrapped in swaddling clothes. He was
        > baptized as Man--but He washed away our sins as God. [.] He was
        > tempted as Man, but He conquered as God; & He bids us be of good
        > cheer, for He has overcome the world. He hungered--but He fed
        > thousands & He is the Bread that gives life which came down from
        > heaven. He thirsted--but He cried, "If any man thirst let him come
        > unto Me and drink." & He promised that springs of living water would
        > flow from them that believe. He was wearied, but He is the Rest for
        > them that are weary and heavy laden. [.]. He wept, but He causes tears
        > to cease. He asked where Lazarus was laid, for He was Man; but He
        > raised Lazarus, for He was God. He was sold, dirt cheap, only for
        > thirty pieces of silver; but He redeems the world, and that at a great
        > price, for the Price was His own blood. As a sheep He is led to the
        > slaughter, but He is the Shepherd of Israel and now of the whole world
        > also. [.]. He is bruised and wounded, but He heals every disease and
        > every infirmity. He is lifted up and nailed to the Tree, but by the
        > Tree of Life He restores us. He even saves the Bandit crucified with
        > Him; [.]. He lays down His life, but He has power to take it again;
        > and the veil is rent, for the mysterious doors of Heaven are opened;
        > [.]. He dies, but He gives life, and by His death destroys death. He
        > is buried, but He rises again; He goes down into Hell, but He rescues
        > the imprisoned; He ascends to Heaven, and shall come again to judge
        > the living and the dead, [.]. He was the descendant of David according
        > to the flesh, but declared the Son of God with power according to the
        > Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. O Lord, You
        > have taken our breath away! Now send Your Holy breath, The Spirit of
        > Christ, that as we eat & drink this bread & wine, we may truly &
        > really commune with the body & blood of our Savior, Your Son, for our
        > health, life, holiness & joy! Amen."
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        > Mike
        > The Rev'd Dr. Michael Philliber,
        > Pastor, Daddy, Hubby, & Drinker of St. Arnold's Amber Ale!
        > New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
        > "[...] God is communion, not impersonal diffusion"
        > (Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism).
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the
        > owners/moderators, please send an email to:
        > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to
        step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two
        things will happen: There will be something solid to stand on or you
        will be taught how to fly." — Barbara J. Winter
      • Michael Philliber
        John, I will rehearse them after the prayer. In our tradition, we don t make them part of the prayer. So here is the skeletal lay-out: We Profess Our Common
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 31 9:56 AM
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          John,

          I will rehearse them after the prayer. In our tradition, we don't make them
          part of the prayer. So here is the skeletal lay-out:

          We Profess Our Common Faith in Response to God’s Word: The Nicene Creed TH #
          846

          Invitation to Participate at Our Lord’s Supper (here I "fence" the table)

          The Prayer of Consecration
          Minister: Dear children of God, as often as you eat this bread & drink this
          cup - what are you declaring?
          All: Christ has died! Christ is risen! Christ will come again! Hallelujah!

          (Then I offer the prayer I sent earlier)

          The Words of Institution & Distribution of Bread & Cup


          Mike
          Pastor Michael Philliber
          New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
          "[...] God is communion, not impersonal diffusion" (Olivier Clement,
          The Roots of Christian Mysticism: Texts from the Patristic Era w/
          Commentary).
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "John Dornheim" <john19@...>
          To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:48 AM
          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Eucharistic Prayer-Fromm Gregory of Nazianzus


          Where are the words of institution?
          John Dornheim
          On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:43 PM, Michael Philliber wrote:

          > Here's the prayer I crafted for this coming Sunday. This is the prayer
          > for the Eucharist. I'm looking for some helpful feedback. The source
          > is Gregory of Nazianzus' 3rd Theological Oration 'On The Son'.
          >
          > "We gather round this table to thank You, Holy Lord God, because
          > according to Your good pleasure & desire, Your blessed Son, Jesus
          > Christ gave Himself for us, that He might deliver us from this present
          > evil age. & we ponder the mystery of our faith: for what He was [from
          > eternity] He continued to be; & yet what He was not He took to
          > Himself. He took our human flesh & united it with God, forming a
          > single entity with himself. He is before all things, & by Him all
          > things consist, yet he was carried in a virgin's womb, born of the
          > water, blood & agony of birth, & wrapped in swaddling clothes. He was
          > baptized as Man--but He washed away our sins as God. [.] He was
          > tempted as Man, but He conquered as God; & He bids us be of good
          > cheer, for He has overcome the world. He hungered--but He fed
          > thousands & He is the Bread that gives life which came down from
          > heaven. He thirsted--but He cried, "If any man thirst let him come
          > unto Me and drink." & He promised that springs of living water would
          > flow from them that believe. He was wearied, but He is the Rest for
          > them that are weary and heavy laden. [.]. He wept, but He causes tears
          > to cease. He asked where Lazarus was laid, for He was Man; but He
          > raised Lazarus, for He was God. He was sold, dirt cheap, only for
          > thirty pieces of silver; but He redeems the world, and that at a great
          > price, for the Price was His own blood. As a sheep He is led to the
          > slaughter, but He is the Shepherd of Israel and now of the whole world
          > also. [.]. He is bruised and wounded, but He heals every disease and
          > every infirmity. He is lifted up and nailed to the Tree, but by the
          > Tree of Life He restores us. He even saves the Bandit crucified with
          > Him; [.]. He lays down His life, but He has power to take it again;
          > and the veil is rent, for the mysterious doors of Heaven are opened;
          > [.]. He dies, but He gives life, and by His death destroys death. He
          > is buried, but He rises again; He goes down into Hell, but He rescues
          > the imprisoned; He ascends to Heaven, and shall come again to judge
          > the living and the dead, [.]. He was the descendant of David according
          > to the flesh, but declared the Son of God with power according to the
          > Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. O Lord, You
          > have taken our breath away! Now send Your Holy breath, The Spirit of
          > Christ, that as we eat & drink this bread & wine, we may truly &
          > really commune with the body & blood of our Savior, Your Son, for our
          > health, life, holiness & joy! Amen."
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Mike
          > The Rev'd Dr. Michael Philliber,
          > Pastor, Daddy, Hubby, & Drinker of St. Arnold's Amber Ale!
          > New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
          > "[...] God is communion, not impersonal diffusion"
          > (Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism).
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the
          > owners/moderators, please send an email to:
          > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          "When you come to the edge of all the light you know, and are about to
          step off into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing one of two
          things will happen: There will be something solid to stand on or you
          will be taught how to fly." — Barbara J. Winter



          Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
          write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
          liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Walt Knowles
          John, If we take 4th century liturgy seriously (pre Cyril of Jerusalem), I don t have any problem with the lack of institution (none of the early prayers have
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 31 10:16 AM
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            John,
            If we take 4th century liturgy seriously (pre Cyril of Jerusalem), I
            don't have any problem with the lack of institution (none of the early
            prayers have one--see Bradshaw), but I am concerned about the lack of
            intercession (which they all do have). I like the euchology, but I don't
            think it is complete. Michael, how is this situated in the liturgy?

            Walt Knowles
            GTU
            Berkeley, CA

            John Dornheim wrote:
            > Where are the words of institution?
            > John Dornheim
            > On Jul 31, 2007, at 12:43 PM, Michael Philliber wrote:
            >
            >> Here's the prayer I crafted for this coming Sunday. This is the
            >> prayer for the Eucharist. I'm looking for some helpful feedback. The
            >> source is Gregory of Nazianzus' 3rd Theological Oration 'On The Son'.
            >>
          • Michael Philliber
            Walt, Ours is a pretty low service [it s high in low church circles, & way low in high church circles... ha ha ha. I just tell everyone that we re simply
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 31 11:14 AM
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              Walt,

              Ours is a pretty 'low' service [it's 'high' in low church circles, & way low
              in high church circles... ha ha ha. I just tell everyone that we're simply
              high church Baptists]. The order is simple:

              Hymn or Psalter Sel.
              Scriptural Greeting (responsive:Minister: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ
              be with your spirit. All: Grace be with you.)
              Call to worship (responsive)

              Confession of Sin (This week's is: Truly, O LORD God, my heart is deceitful
              above all things, & desperately wicked; who can understand it? You, O LORD,
              search the heart, You test the mind, even to give every man according to his
              ways, according to the fruit of his doings. Heal me, O LORD, & I shall be
              healed; save me, & I shall be saved, for You are my praise. Rejoice the
              soul of Your servant, for to You, O Lord, I lift up my soul. For You, Lord,
              are good, & ready to forgive, & abundant in mercy to all those who call upon
              You. (Jeremiah 17:9-10,14; Psalm 86:4-5) )

              Assurance of Pardon (This month's will be: Now I declare to you, by the
              authority of Christ Jesus & the Holy Scriptures: that Almighty God, our
              heavenly Father, has forgiven the sins of all you who have confessed your
              sins, repented of them, turned to God with new desires of obedience, &
              believe that in Jesus Christ alone you have redemption thru His blood, the
              forgiveness of your sins. Let the promises of God encourage your hearts: I
              pardon iniquity, passing over the transgressions of my remnant. I do not
              retain My anger forever, because I delight in mercy. I will cast all your
              sins into the depths of the sea! [an adaptation of Micah 7.18-19])

              Sursum Corda (with a John Calvin response: Minister: Now stand up, & lift
              up your hearts & souls unto the Lord. Church: My heart I offer to You, O
              Lord; promptly & sincerely!

              Prayer of Invocation
              Hymn/Psalter Sel.
              Scripture reading
              Doxology
              Pastoral Prayer
              Psalm Reading
              Hymn
              Tithes/Offerings
              Scripture Reading
              Prayer of Illumination
              Sermon
              Prayer of Dedication
              Confession of Faith
              Invitation to the Table (Fencing as well)
              [The invitation is a Biblical one. I usually tie in the sermon to it. But it
              is always about What Christ Has Done for Us at the cross & resurrection &
              enthronement]
              Prayer of Consecration
              (Here is where the prayer I sent out originally goes. I always try to put
              somekind of 'epiclesis' in it.)
              Recitation of the Institution & Distribution
              (we sing hymns during the distribution)
              A Closing Prayer of Gratitude
              Gloria Patri
              Benediction

              I realize that this doesn't follow the Liturgy of John Chrysostom, etc. Not
              sure if this is what you were asking for.

              Mike
              Pastor Michael Philliber
              New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
              "[...] God is communion, not impersonal diffusion" (Olivier Clement,
              The Roots of Christian Mysticism).
            • Frank Senn
              I wonder why you don t follow the Order of Service in the Presbyterian Book of Common Worship? Also, there is a copious selection of eucharistic prayers in
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 31 1:01 PM
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                I wonder why you don't follow the Order of Service in the Presbyterian Book of Common Worship? Also, there is a copious selection of eucharistic prayers in the BCW.

                Frank C. Senn

                Michael Philliber <newlifepca@...> wrote: Walt,

                Ours is a pretty 'low' service [it's 'high' in low church circles, & way low
                in high church circles... ha ha ha. I just tell everyone that we're simply
                high church Baptists]. The order is simple:

                Hymn or Psalter Sel.
                Scriptural Greeting (responsive:Minister: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ
                be with your spirit. All: Grace be with you.)
                Call to worship (responsive)

                Confession of Sin (This week's is: Truly, O LORD God, my heart is deceitful
                above all things, & desperately wicked; who can understand it? You, O LORD,
                search the heart, You test the mind, even to give every man according to his
                ways, according to the fruit of his doings. Heal me, O LORD, & I shall be
                healed; save me, & I shall be saved, for You are my praise. Rejoice the
                soul of Your servant, for to You, O Lord, I lift up my soul. For You, Lord,
                are good, & ready to forgive, & abundant in mercy to all those who call upon
                You. (Jeremiah 17:9-10,14; Psalm 86:4-5) )

                Assurance of Pardon (This month's will be: Now I declare to you, by the
                authority of Christ Jesus & the Holy Scriptures: that Almighty God, our
                heavenly Father, has forgiven the sins of all you who have confessed your
                sins, repented of them, turned to God with new desires of obedience, &
                believe that in Jesus Christ alone you have redemption thru His blood, the
                forgiveness of your sins. Let the promises of God encourage your hearts: I
                pardon iniquity, passing over the transgressions of my remnant. I do not
                retain My anger forever, because I delight in mercy. I will cast all your
                sins into the depths of the sea! [an adaptation of Micah 7.18-19])

                Sursum Corda (with a John Calvin response: Minister: Now stand up, & lift
                up your hearts & souls unto the Lord. Church: My heart I offer to You, O
                Lord; promptly & sincerely!

                Prayer of Invocation
                Hymn/Psalter Sel.
                Scripture reading
                Doxology
                Pastoral Prayer
                Psalm Reading
                Hymn
                Tithes/Offerings
                Scripture Reading
                Prayer of Illumination
                Sermon
                Prayer of Dedication
                Confession of Faith
                Invitation to the Table (Fencing as well)
                [The invitation is a Biblical one. I usually tie in the sermon to it. But it
                is always about What Christ Has Done for Us at the cross & resurrection &
                enthronement]
                Prayer of Consecration
                (Here is where the prayer I sent out originally goes. I always try to put
                somekind of 'epiclesis' in it.)
                Recitation of the Institution & Distribution
                (we sing hymns during the distribution)
                A Closing Prayer of Gratitude
                Gloria Patri
                Benediction

                I realize that this doesn't follow the Liturgy of John Chrysostom, etc. Not
                sure if this is what you were asking for.

                Mike
                Pastor Michael Philliber
                New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
                "[...] God is communion, not impersonal diffusion" (Olivier Clement,
                The Roots of Christian Mysticism).



                Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                Yahoo! Groups Links






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michael Philliber
                Frank, There are several answers to your question: (1) We re not PC(USA). Our denomination left the PC(USA) in 1973, & the BCW was done up in 1993 (I believe).
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 31 2:04 PM
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                  Frank,

                  There are several answers to your question:
                  (1) We're not PC(USA). Our denomination left the PC(USA) in 1973, & the BCW was done up in 1993 (I believe).
                  (2) We're really a very loose liturgical denomination - coming more from the Southern Presbyterian tradition.
                  (3) I don't own a copy of the PC(USA) BCW.
                  (4) I'm trying to connect our congregation to older aspects of the Christian tradition; thus we have a sursum corda (which Calvin spoke for strongly); we have weekly communion now (which Calvin spoke for strongly); I often use ancient (patristic) texts for prayers. I guess it's my own way of lex orandi, lex credendi est.
                  (5) The PCA folk who are trying to have a more liturgical service are liturgical babies. I've been ordained since 2001 (after 20 yrs of Air Force enlistment), & am at my 2nd church (been here 5+ years). The churches where I cut my teeth were very non-liturgical or extremely liturgy-lite.

                  I've used the 1979 BCP, the 1928 BCP, the Lutheran Service Book & Hymnal (the red one), & a couple of others as resources.

                  I see that this is your cup of tea, & so I'm sure that our liturgical lay-out might be like screeching nails on a chalkboard to you.

                  I'm open to suggestions. Thanks for asking.

                  Mike
                  Pastor Michael Philliber
                  New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
                  "[...] God is communion, not impersonal diffusion"
                  (Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism).

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James Morgan
                  Dear Michael: It is a very nice prayer you wrote. Have you considered since you use patristic texts, using the anaphora from the St. Basil s liturgy of the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 31 5:20 PM
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                    Dear Michael:
                    It is a very nice prayer you wrote. Have you considered since you use
                    patristic texts, using the anaphora from the St. Basil's liturgy of the
                    Eastern Church (you of course would probably want to remove portions that
                    might be 'problematic' for Presbyterians...) but it is a very nice prayer
                    indeed!) And the one from St. John Chrysostom is also very nice, but shorter
                    than St. Basil's.

                    Rdr. James
                    Olympia

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of Michael Philliber
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:04 PM
                    To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Eucharistic Prayer-Fromm Gregory of Nazianzus

                    Frank,

                    There are several answers to your question:
                    (1) We're not PC(USA). Our denomination left the PC(USA) in 1973, & the BCW
                    was done up in 1993 (I believe).
                    (2) We're really a very loose liturgical denomination - coming more from the
                    Southern Presbyterian tradition.
                    (3) I don't own a copy of the PC(USA) BCW.
                    (4) I'm trying to connect our congregation to older aspects of the Christian
                    tradition; thus we have a sursum corda (which Calvin spoke for strongly); we
                    have weekly communion now (which Calvin spoke for strongly); I often use
                    ancient (patristic) texts for prayers. I guess it's my own way of lex
                    orandi, lex credendi est.
                    (5) The PCA folk who are trying to have a more liturgical service are
                    liturgical babies. I've been ordained since 2001 (after 20 yrs of Air Force
                    enlistment), & am at my 2nd church (been here 5+ years). The churches where
                    I cut my teeth were very non-liturgical or extremely liturgy-lite.

                    I've used the 1979 BCP, the 1928 BCP, the Lutheran Service Book & Hymnal
                    (the red one), & a couple of others as resources.

                    I see that this is your cup of tea, & so I'm sure that our liturgical
                    lay-out might be like screeching nails on a chalkboard to you.

                    I'm open to suggestions. Thanks for asking.

                    Mike
                    Pastor Michael Philliber
                    New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
                    "[...] God is communion, not impersonal diffusion"
                    (Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism).
                  • Michael Philliber
                    James, Thank you very much. Yes, I noticed that the American BCP (1979) Rite 4 Eucharistic prayer is Basilian. I ve already used it a couple of times. But I ll
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 31 6:03 PM
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                      James,

                      Thank you very much.

                      Yes, I noticed that the American BCP (1979) Rite 4 Eucharistic prayer is Basilian. I've already used it a couple of times. But I'll check out the original source. Thanks for pointing it out.

                      Mike
                      Pastor Michael Philliber
                      New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
                      "[...] God is communion, not impersonal diffusion" (Olivier Clement,
                      The Roots of Christian Mysticism: Texts from the Patristic Era w/ Commentary).
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: James Morgan
                      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:20 PM
                      Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Eucharistic Prayer-Fromm Gregory of Nazianzus


                      Dear Michael:
                      It is a very nice prayer you wrote. Have you considered since you use
                      patristic texts, using the anaphora from the St. Basil's liturgy of the
                      Eastern Church (you of course would probably want to remove portions that
                      might be 'problematic' for Presbyterians...) but it is a very nice prayer
                      indeed!) And the one from St. John Chrysostom is also very nice, but shorter
                      than St. Basil's.

                      Rdr. James
                      Olympia

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of Michael Philliber
                      Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 2:04 PM
                      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Eucharistic Prayer-Fromm Gregory of Nazianzus

                      Frank,

                      There are several answers to your question:
                      (1) We're not PC(USA). Our denomination left the PC(USA) in 1973, & the BCW
                      was done up in 1993 (I believe).
                      (2) We're really a very loose liturgical denomination - coming more from the
                      Southern Presbyterian tradition.
                      (3) I don't own a copy of the PC(USA) BCW.
                      (4) I'm trying to connect our congregation to older aspects of the Christian
                      tradition; thus we have a sursum corda (which Calvin spoke for strongly); we
                      have weekly communion now (which Calvin spoke for strongly); I often use
                      ancient (patristic) texts for prayers. I guess it's my own way of lex
                      orandi, lex credendi est.
                      (5) The PCA folk who are trying to have a more liturgical service are
                      liturgical babies. I've been ordained since 2001 (after 20 yrs of Air Force
                      enlistment), & am at my 2nd church (been here 5+ years). The churches where
                      I cut my teeth were very non-liturgical or extremely liturgy-lite.

                      I've used the 1979 BCP, the 1928 BCP, the Lutheran Service Book & Hymnal
                      (the red one), & a couple of others as resources.

                      I see that this is your cup of tea, & so I'm sure that our liturgical
                      lay-out might be like screeching nails on a chalkboard to you.

                      I'm open to suggestions. Thanks for asking.

                      Mike
                      Pastor Michael Philliber
                      New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
                      "[...] God is communion, not impersonal diffusion"
                      (Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism).





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sean W. Reed
                      I am not sure how to offer feedback on a Eucharistic prayer that speaks about eating bread and wine. I am not familiar with eating bread and wine in the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 31 9:53 PM
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                        I am not sure how to offer feedback on a Eucharistic prayer that speaks
                        about eating bread and wine.

                        I am not familiar with eating bread and wine in the Eucharist - so from
                        my perspective, I have great difficulty relating to what you are trying
                        to accomplish.

                        I will say, leaving the theological and sacerdotal part aside, your
                        prose is well written and it appears you did spend a lot of effort on
                        the project.

                        Faithfully,

                        Sean Reed

                        Sean W. Reed, a/SSM Member of the Council Society of St. Michael
                        http://www.anglocatholic.net/ssm <http://www.anglocatholic.net/ssm>
                        Saint Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our defense
                        against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we
                        humbly pray, and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power
                        of God, thrust into Hell Satan and the other evil spirits who prowl
                        about the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bob White
                        ... Try this for starters: 1 Corinthians 11:23-27 (23) For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 1, 2007
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                          Wednesday, August 1, 2007, 12:53:43 AM, Sean W. Reed wrote:

                          > I am not sure how to offer feedback on a Eucharistic prayer that speaks
                          > about eating bread and wine.

                          Try this for starters:

                          1 Corinthians 11:23-27 (23) For I received from the Lord what I also
                          handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was
                          betrayed took a loaf of bread, (24) and when he had given thanks, he
                          broke it and said, "This is my body that is foryou. Do this in
                          remembrance of me." (25) In the same way he took the cup also, after
                          supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as
                          often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." (26) For as often as you
                          eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until
                          he comes. (27) Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of
                          the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and
                          blood of the Lord.

                          Yes the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ, but are they
                          not also bread and wine--the body in which Jesus has chosen to
                          eucharistically present for us

                          --
                          Bob mailto:rwhite84@...

                          Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.
                          - Martin Luther King Jr.
                        • Sean W. Reed
                          ... ... ... Bob - I don t think we will change anyone s mind here, and it is not the place for it any way. The issue is in your question - but are they not
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 1, 2007
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                            --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Bob White <rwhite84@...> wrote:
                            "...
                            >
                            > Yes the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ, but are they
                            > not also bread and wine--the body in which Jesus has chosen to
                            > eucharistically present for us..."
                            >


                            Bob -

                            I don't think we will change anyone's mind here, and it is not the
                            place for it any way. The issue is in your question - "but are they
                            not also bread and wine?" Our catholic understanding would be no and
                            others would say yes.

                            Whether you read St. Aquinas or skip 1100 years before him to St.
                            Cyril - the same image is there, but the words of our Blessed Lord sum
                            it up best - This is my body - This is my Blood. Particularly since
                            the 16th century, there are those who say this understanding is wrong,
                            but that position does not square with the writing of the church
                            Fathers.


                            Faithfully,

                            Sean Reed
                          • Michael Philliber
                            Sean, Several years before the Gospels were put down to paper St. Paul wrote (I m using the Douay-Rheims here) 1 Cor. 10.16-17: The chalice of benediction
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 1, 2007
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                              Sean,
                              Several years before the Gospels were put down to paper St. Paul wrote (I'm using the Douay-Rheims here) 1 Cor. 10.16-17: The chalice of benediction which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? ***For we, being many, are one bread, one body: all that partake of one bread.***

                              & the New American Bible draws the breadness out as well: The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, ***for we all partake of the one loaf.***

                              Cheers y'all,

                              Mike
                              Pastor Michael Philliber
                              New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
                              "[...] God is communion, not impersonal diffusion" (Olivier Clement,
                              The Roots of Christian Mysticism: Texts from the Patristic Era w/ Commentary).
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Sean W. Reed
                              To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 3:56 PM
                              Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: Eucharistic Prayer-Fromm Gregory of Nazianzus


                              --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Bob White <rwhite84@...> wrote:
                              "...
                              >
                              > Yes the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ, but are they
                              > not also bread and wine--the body in which Jesus has chosen to
                              > eucharistically present for us..."
                              >

                              Bob -

                              I don't think we will change anyone's mind here, and it is not the
                              place for it any way. The issue is in your question - "but are they
                              not also bread and wine?" Our catholic understanding would be no and
                              others would say yes.

                              Whether you read St. Aquinas or skip 1100 years before him to St.
                              Cyril - the same image is there, but the words of our Blessed Lord sum
                              it up best - This is my body - This is my Blood. Particularly since
                              the 16th century, there are those who say this understanding is wrong,
                              but that position does not square with the writing of the church
                              Fathers.

                              Faithfully,

                              Sean Reed





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Frank Senn
                              Sean, Even Thomas Aquinas couldn t make the accidents disappear. If you look at how the sacrament is handled in reservation after the Mass, you will see
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 1, 2007
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                                Sean,

                                Even Thomas Aquinas couldn't make the "accidents" disappear. If you look at how the sacrament is handled in reservation after the Mass, you will see that the directives still take account of the fact that body of Christ gets moldy or stale because of its "accident" of being bread.

                                I think that making the kind of distinction that you do runs the risk of causing those in other traditions to not recognize what you say about them. Lutherans are quite convinced that they receive the body and blood of Christ according to the words of Christ. Many Reformed are quite sure that they receive the body and blood of Christ in faith. The Orthodox are quite certain that they receive the body and blood of Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit. There are areas of overlap here as well as differences. That's what makes dialogue possible.

                                Cheers,
                                Frank C. Senn
                                "Sean W. Reed" <skreed1@...> wrote: --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Bob White <rwhite84@...> wrote:
                                "...
                                >
                                > Yes the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ, but are they
                                > not also bread and wine--the body in which Jesus has chosen to
                                > eucharistically present for us..."
                                >

                                Bob -

                                I don't think we will change anyone's mind here, and it is not the
                                place for it any way. The issue is in your question - "but are they
                                not also bread and wine?" Our catholic understanding would be no and
                                others would say yes.

                                Whether you read St. Aquinas or skip 1100 years before him to St.
                                Cyril - the same image is there, but the words of our Blessed Lord sum
                                it up best - This is my body - This is my Blood. Particularly since
                                the 16th century, there are those who say this understanding is wrong,
                                but that position does not square with the writing of the church
                                Fathers.

                                Faithfully,

                                Sean Reed






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Douglas Cowling
                                ... This brought in a tricky problem: what happens to the substance of the sacrament when the accidents of bread disappear: it turns to mould or dries up
                                Message 15 of 16 , Aug 1, 2007
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                                  On 8/1/07 6:06 PM, "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...> wrote:

                                  > Even Thomas Aquinas couldn't make the "accidents" disappear. If you look at
                                  > how the sacrament is handled in reservation after the Mass, you will see that
                                  > the directives still take account of the fact that body of Christ gets moldy
                                  > or stale because of its "accident" of being bread.

                                  This brought in a tricky problem: what happens to the "substance" of the
                                  sacrament when the "accidents" of bread disappear: it turns to mould or
                                  dries up unto dust. Didn¹t Schillebeeckx get into trouble with the CDF for
                                  suggesting that the real presence ceased when the sacrament ceased to have
                                  the attributes of bread?

                                  Douglas Cowling
                                  Director of Music
                                  St. Philip's Church, Toronto

                                  "Yes, I am haunted as it were, by phantoms of the past; I have inoculated
                                  myself with the seductive poison of the Liturgy; it now runs through my
                                  spiritual veins and I shall never be rid of it. Church services affect me
                                  as morphine affects a drug taker."

                                  Jori-Karl Huysmans, novel: "L'Oblat"




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                                • michaelphilliber
                                  Frank, You wrote: Lutherans are quite convinced that they receive the body and blood of Christ according to the words of Christ. Many Reformed are quite sure
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Aug 1, 2007
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                                    Frank,

                                    You wrote: Lutherans are quite convinced that they receive the body and
                                    blood of Christ according to the words of Christ. Many Reformed are quite
                                    sure that they receive the body and blood of Christ in faith. The Orthodox
                                    are quite certain that they receive the body and blood of Christ through the
                                    work of the Holy Spirit. There are areas of overlap here as well as
                                    differences.

                                    My reply: One of the things I try to remind many folks of is this: The
                                    debate among Reformed, Lutheran, RC, & EO was not 'Is Christ Present?' but
                                    How Christ is Present'. You have hit the nail on the head. Thanks.

                                    Pastor Michael Philliber
                                    New Life Presbyterian Church (PCA) Midland Texas
                                    "For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God;
                                    and where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church,
                                    and every kind of grace; but the Spirit is truth."
                                    St. Irenaeus 3.24.1
                                    www.newlifepca.org
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