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Re: FW: [Celt] Modern Language Christmas Pageant

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  • frpeterdr@webtv.net
    Christmas Pageants are anonther occasion for this particular parish priest to display the fixed grin and glazed look that I get when I am having to do things I
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 1, 2007
      Christmas Pageants are anonther occasion for this particular parish
      priest to display the fixed grin and glazed look that I get when I am
      having to do things I hate, but other folks think are cute. These are
      usually occasions when it is expendient for me not to display my usual
      "father knows best" way of dealing with parish business.

      Peter

      The Very Rev. Peter D. Robinson
      Rector: St Paul's Anglican Church, Prescott, AZ
      Dean of Arizona, ACA:DOW
      http://www.prescottanglican.ozonez.com
    • Janet Roth
      Peter, I am sorry that you hate (or think you do) Christmas pageants. Far from being considered cute in my parish, the pageant is considered to be a
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 1, 2007
        Peter,
        I am sorry that you hate (or think you do) Christmas pageants. Far
        from being considered "cute" in my parish, the pageant is considered to
        be a ministry which the children offer to the parish/ in the parish.
        The pageant is normally the "Liturgy of the Word" for the 4p 12/24
        service which is considered by all to be the first Eucharist of
        Christmas. (There is always a very short homily and ALWAYS eucharist
        attached.) In part I think because of the earlier hour and because of
        the authenicity and the ability for this service to really engage
        people, this first Christmas service is often better attended than the
        11p service.

        The script does not change much from year to year. Always short
        readings from Luke and Matthew with John1:1-? added. The songs change
        a little from year to year --- except the nursery/ kinders who are
        angels and always sing "Away in the Manger."
        (If you'd like to see our script, I'd be glad to find a copy to send
        you.)

        Like lots of others we had four services this year on Dec 24 -- Two for
        Advent, two for Christmas. They were all equally wonderful in
        different ways.

        Janet Roth


        On Jan 1, 2007, at 12:53 PM, frpeterdr@... wrote:

        > Christmas Pageants are anonther occasion for this particular parish
        > priest to display the fixed grin and glazed look that I get when I am
        > having to do things I hate, but other folks think are cute. These are
        > usually occasions when it is expendient for me not to display my usual
        > "father knows best" way of dealing with parish business.
        >
        > Peter
        >
        > The Very Rev. Peter D. Robinson
        > Rector: St Paul's Anglican Church, Prescott, AZ
        > Dean of Arizona, ACA:DOW
        > http://www.prescottanglican.ozonez.com
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael T. Hiller
        Available on http://www.hillerleiturgia.com, for Sunday bulletins, and brief commentary on the readings from the Eucharistic Lectionary. -- The Rev. Mr.
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 1, 2007
          Available on http://www.hillerleiturgia.com, for Sunday bulletins, and
          brief commentary on the readings from the Eucharistic Lectionary.

          --
          The Rev. Mr. Michael T. Hiller
          415.468.1001 (home)
          415.999.8606 (cell)
          mailto:priestly@...
          webpage: http://www.hillerleiturgia.com
        • L. Sissel
          Available on http://www.hillerle iturgia.com, for Sunday bulletins, and brief commentary on the readings from the Eucharistic Lectionary. The Rev. Mr. Michael
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 1, 2007
            Available on http://www.hillerle iturgia.com, for Sunday bulletins, and

            brief commentary on the readings from the Eucharistic Lectionary.

            The Rev. Mr. Michael T. Hiller












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            The link does not work for me - tells me I cannot go there. I tried several different browsers etc.

            Fr. Lee



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          • frpeterdr@webtv.net
            My antipathy to Christmas Pageants is a bit out of character, as I like mediaeval mystery plays, and the old carols. I often wonder if my antipathy would
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 2, 2007
              My antipathy to Christmas Pageants is a bit out of character, as I like
              mediaeval mystery plays, and the old carols. I often wonder if my
              antipathy would survive getting the kids to use an abridged and updated
              version of one of the mediaeval texts.

              The Very Rev. Peter D. Robinson
              Rector: St Paul's Anglican Church, Prescott, AZ
              Dean of Arizona, ACA:DOW
              http://www.prescottanglican.ozonez.com
            • Mark Preece
              I too have an ambiguous relationship with the pageant. My 4pm family Christmas Eve eucharist (with pageant) is threatening to become the whole Christmas
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 3, 2007
                I too have an ambiguous relationship with the pageant. My 4pm family
                Christmas Eve eucharist (with pageant) is threatening to become the whole
                Christmas shebang for my parish: the pageant is very popular and my older
                folks don't like driving at night. When I was young, I recall staying up
                for the midnight mass was a sort of rite of passage, like getting to watch
                Johnny Carson on New Years Eve, but now I find lots of kids who graduate
                from the pageant want to keep coming to that service anyway. My candlelight
                service is shrinking as the family eucharist grows, and as far as I know
                nobody has ever come on Christmas day in this parish.

                On the other hand, I love the pageant, for all the reasons everybody else
                does (cute kids), and also for ones having to do with my calling as a
                Christian leader: the kids, the families, and many in the rest of the
                parish are involved and energized by this event. I'm thinking of moving it
                to a Sunday in Advent, but I don't know yet. The Christmas Eve pageant
                makes Christmas the culmination of work done in Advent, which is one of the
                few ways I have of keeping Advent as a season of preparation rather than as
                "the holiday season." Is my problem just an aesthetic longing for the
                candlelight of my youth, or is it a real concern that something important
                gets lost in the more circus like atmosphere of the pageant service? Dunno.

                Now to the point of writing the email: This year we used Gretchen Wolff
                Pritchard's "A Child of Might," which is based on mystery plays from York
                and elsewhere. I liked it, though there was some initial resistance to
                making the kids learn rhyming old english poetry. Near the end of the
                rehearsals, around Advent 3, I was driving somewhere when my 5-year old
                daughter, an angel this year, suddenly asked me what "Amen, amen, say we"
                means. A teaching moment, of course, but it made me wonder how much she
                actually got of the play's content (which begins with speaking parts for
                God, Moses, Isaiah, and others). Still, I recommend the play: the kids did
                a good job and I think they experienced a sense of accomplishment for
                mastering something unfamiliar.

                Peace,

                Mark.

                The Rev. Mark Preece
                Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                King of Prussia, PA

                At 07:52 PM 1/2/2007, frpeterdr@... wrote:
                >My antipathy to Christmas Pageants is a bit out of character, as I like
                >mediaeval mystery plays, and the old carols. I often wonder if my
                >antipathy would survive getting the kids to use an abridged and updated
                >version of one of the mediaeval texts.
                >
                >The Very Rev. Peter D. Robinson
                >Rector: St Paul's Anglican Church, Prescott, AZ
                >Dean of Arizona, ACA:DOW
                >http://www.prescottanglican.ozonez.com
                >
                >
                >
                >Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                >write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                >liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • theodore lorah
                ... Don t you have the Eucharist at the candle light service? I am also unsure what the family Eucharist is. Eucharist I understand, but it is in the
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 3, 2007
                  On Jan 3, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Mark Preece wrote:

                  > My candlelight
                  > service is shrinking as the family eucharist grows, and as far as I
                  > know
                  > nobody has ever come on Christmas day in this parish.

                  Don't you have the Eucharist at the candle light service? I am also
                  unsure what the "family Eucharist" is. Eucharist I understand, but
                  it is in the tradition of the Church to celebrate the Eucharist on
                  Christmas Eve, and since the same people would not be attending two
                  of them, the same lessons would be in order, unless you did the Nine
                  Lessons and Carols, which could substitute for the Liturgy of the
                  Word. How you celebrated could be oriented toward younger Christians
                  rather than the older ones. I guess what I'm saying is that you
                  could "mix and match" and come up two liturgies that satisfied the
                  requirements of the Christmas Eve mass.

                  Ted Lorah
                  Honey Brook, PA

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mark Preece
                  Sorry for the confusion. We have two Christmas Eve services, both straight Book of Common Prayer Rite 2 Eucharists. One s at 4pm, with the pageant more-or-less
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 3, 2007
                    Sorry for the confusion. We have two Christmas Eve services, both straight
                    Book of Common Prayer Rite 2 Eucharists. One's at 4pm, with the pageant
                    more-or-less replacing the sermon (though I say a few things!), and with
                    lots of noise and commotion. The later one, at 9, has choir, sermon, and
                    candles.

                    Peace,

                    Mark.

                    At 10:51 AM 1/3/2007, theodore lorah wrote:

                    >On Jan 3, 2007, at 9:49 AM, Mark Preece wrote:
                    >
                    > > My candlelight
                    > > service is shrinking as the family eucharist grows, and as far as I
                    > > know
                    > > nobody has ever come on Christmas day in this parish.
                    >
                    >Don't you have the Eucharist at the candle light service? I am also
                    >unsure what the "family Eucharist" is. Eucharist I understand, but
                    >it is in the tradition of the Church to celebrate the Eucharist on
                    >Christmas Eve, and since the same people would not be attending two
                    >of them, the same lessons would be in order, unless you did the Nine
                    >Lessons and Carols, which could substitute for the Liturgy of the
                    >Word. How you celebrated could be oriented toward younger Christians
                    >rather than the older ones. I guess what I'm saying is that you
                    >could "mix and match" and come up two liturgies that satisfied the
                    >requirements of the Christmas Eve mass.
                    >
                    >Ted Lorah
                    >Honey Brook, PA
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                    >write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                    >liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • R Drake
                    All of your points, Mark, are very familiar, and I also am ambivalent about pageants and such (from the perspective of a musician, not a clergy-person). We
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 3, 2007
                      All of your points, Mark, are very familiar, and I also am
                      ambivalent about pageants and such (from the perspective of
                      a musician, not a clergy-person). We may have a larger
                      congregation than you do - we run 3 services Christmas eve
                      (children's with Xmas musical, contemporary, and
                      traditional with choir and all the trimmings), all with
                      Eucharist, and one on Christmas Day (very poorly attended,
                      but the feeling is that it should happen regardless). NB,
                      we do put on the musical at one service on Advent 3, then
                      again Xmas Eve.

                      My take, FWIW, on the matter of kids staying on at the
                      early service after they have technically 'outgrown' it is
                      that we have, overall, eliminated much of the
                      differentiation between children and adults. Adults don't
                      want to be seen to be older than about 35, and preteens
                      want to dress and act as adults. We maybe need to make
                      more of passages, so that kids know that they come to each
                      opportunity in turn, but then outgrow it. We also could do
                      with more recognition of the concept of 'mystery', not to
                      be confused with the 'in crowd' and the equivalent of lodge
                      greetings. That's one thing that is usually missing from
                      the services I've seen aimed at youngsters.

                      In our area, where most families have two working parents,
                      there is an additional factor pushing the early service.
                      If the family wants to worship together, it has to go to
                      whatever is appropriate for the youngest member. That
                      pretty much means that as long as there is a child in the
                      family between toddler and age 14, they're all at the
                      children's service.

                      Re your specific play, Mark, it sounds fascinating, but I
                      should think that it really needs not just ordinary
                      learning of lines, but to be the culmination of the fall
                      term's Sunday School program. I know this would play hob
                      with a standard curriculum, but it sounds like the show you
                      did recounts about 2/3 of salvation history, and surely
                      this is a golden opportunity to teach it as a connected
                      whole!

                      Fr. Peter, are you a medieval enthusiast, or concerned that
                      what we say/play/sing reflect our theology? If the latter,
                      there ARE more recent pieces (both concert and carol) in
                      which the theology is not dumbed down, as well as the
                      treasure trove of carols from all over the world and
                      several hundred years of time. In fact, how about a
                      pageant or play that tells the story through the
                      perceptions of Christians around the globe?

                      Peace and a happy new year to all,

                      Robin Drake
                      St. Anne's, Reston
                      Virginia

                      --- Mark Preece <mwmp@...> wrote:

                      > I too have an ambiguous relationship with the pageant. My
                      > 4pm family
                      > Christmas Eve eucharist (with pageant) is threatening to
                      > become the whole
                      > Christmas shebang for my parish: the pageant is very
                      > popular and my older
                      > folks don't like driving at night. When I was young, I
                      > recall staying up
                      > for the midnight mass was a sort of rite of passage, like
                      > getting to watch
                      > Johnny Carson on New Years Eve, but now I find lots of
                      > kids who graduate
                      > from the pageant want to keep coming to that service
                      > anyway. My candlelight
                      > service is shrinking as the family eucharist grows, and
                      > as far as I know
                      > nobody has ever come on Christmas day in this parish.
                      >
                      > On the other hand, I love the pageant, for all the
                      > reasons everybody else
                      > does (cute kids), and also for ones having to do with my
                      > calling as a
                      > Christian leader: the kids, the families, and many in the
                      > rest of the
                      > parish are involved and energized by this event. I'm
                      > thinking of moving it
                      > to a Sunday in Advent, but I don't know yet. The
                      > Christmas Eve pageant
                      > makes Christmas the culmination of work done in Advent,
                      > which is one of the
                      > few ways I have of keeping Advent as a season of
                      > preparation rather than as
                      > "the holiday season." Is my problem just an aesthetic
                      > longing for the
                      > candlelight of my youth, or is it a real concern that
                      > something important
                      > gets lost in the more circus like atmosphere of the
                      > pageant service? Dunno.
                      >
                      > Now to the point of writing the email: This year we used
                      > Gretchen Wolff
                      > Pritchard's "A Child of Might," which is based on mystery
                      > plays from York
                      > and elsewhere. I liked it, though there was some initial
                      > resistance to
                      > making the kids learn rhyming old english poetry. Near
                      > the end of the
                      > rehearsals, around Advent 3, I was driving somewhere when
                      > my 5-year old
                      > daughter, an angel this year, suddenly asked me what
                      > "Amen, amen, say we"
                      > means. A teaching moment, of course, but it made me
                      > wonder how much she
                      > actually got of the play's content (which begins with
                      > speaking parts for
                      > God, Moses, Isaiah, and others). Still, I recommend the
                      > play: the kids did
                      > a good job and I think they experienced a sense of
                      > accomplishment for
                      > mastering something unfamiliar.
                      >
                      > Peace,
                      >
                      > Mark.
                      >
                      > The Rev. Mark Preece
                      > Trinity Church, Gulph Mills
                      > King of Prussia, PA
                      >
                      > At 07:52 PM 1/2/2007, frpeterdr@... wrote:
                      > >My antipathy to Christmas Pageants is a bit out of
                      > character, as I like
                      > >mediaeval mystery plays, and the old carols. I often
                      > wonder if my
                      > >antipathy would survive getting the kids to use an
                      > abridged and updated
                      > >version of one of the mediaeval texts.
                      > >
                      >

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                    • Janet Roth
                      Hi, At what point do you consider that kids have outgrown an early service? Our pageant involves all the young people in the parish -- the high schoolers
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 3, 2007
                        Hi,
                        At what point do you consider that kids have "outgrown" an early
                        service?
                        Our pageant involves all the young people in the parish -- the high
                        schoolers being the principals or helping with lighting. Most years we
                        also have returnees from college who help with lights or costuming
                        etc. Then again many of those in middle school or high school are also
                        in attendance at the 11p service -- some serving as acolytes or the
                        thurifer or possibly ushers.

                        Janet


                        On Jan 3, 2007, at 5:46 PM, R Drake wrote:

                        > My take, FWIW, on the matter of kids staying on at the
                        > early service after they have technically 'outgrown' it is
                        > that we have, overall, eliminated much of the
                        > differentiation between children and adults.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • R Drake
                        Janet, you ask about outgrowing the early service. In our context, that would probably be around age 13 or so, since the presentation of the service is
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 3, 2007
                          Janet, you ask about 'outgrowing' the early service. In
                          our context, that would probably be around age 13 or so,
                          since the presentation of the service is aimed at younger
                          children. That age was also about the time that my family
                          brought me and my siblings to midnight service. We were
                          old enough to stay up without melting down, it no longer
                          posed conflicts with the Santa concept, and we were
                          beginning to grasp a more complex presentation of the
                          theology involved.

                          Your situation sounds like what it should be - everyone
                          together, filling appropriate roles - and I bet it's a
                          wonderful place to be. Our musical/pageant is specifically
                          5th grade and under, since it comes out of the children's
                          music program which serves that age range, but yes, we do
                          have older kids helping out (though with fewer
                          opportunities).

                          We also have highschoolers (as well as younger kids) as
                          acolytes and crucifer (though the younger members of the
                          teams will usually be 'on' for the afternoon Christmas Eve
                          service), and we now have high school age members of
                          Chancel (adult) choir. One of the things we still need to
                          work towards, at St. Anne's, is encouraging our young
                          people to grow into all ministries (eg lector, usher, altar
                          guild, flower guild) that aren't age-restricted by canon.

                          Robin


                          > Hi,
                          > At what point do you consider that kids have
                          > "outgrown" an early
                          > service?
                          > Our pageant involves all the young people in the
                          > parish -- the high
                          > schoolers being the principals or helping with lighting.
                          > Most years we
                          > also have returnees from college who help with lights or
                          > costuming
                          > etc. Then again many of those in middle school or high
                          > school are also
                          > in attendance at the 11p service -- some serving as
                          > acolytes or the
                          > thurifer or possibly ushers.
                          >
                          > Janet
                          >
                          >
                          > On Jan 3, 2007, at 5:46 PM, R Drake wrote:
                          >
                          > > My take, FWIW, on the matter of kids staying on at the
                          > > early service after they have technically 'outgrown'
                          > it is
                          > > that we have, overall, eliminated much of the
                          > > differentiation between children and adults.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the
                          > owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                          > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


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