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RE: [liturgy-l] Protocol question

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  • Andrew Doohan
    I m not sure he has renounced it, but he certainly has dropped its usage in those formal situations where it would have been used in the past. My copy of the
    Message 1 of 33 , Nov 30, 2006
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      I'm not sure he has renounced it, but he certainly has dropped its usage in
      those formal situations where it would have been used in the past. My copy
      of the 2007 The Official Directory of the Catholic Church in Australia
      certainly show the title "Patriarch of the West" in the list to titles for
      His Holiness.

      Andrew Doohan
      N'castle Aust


      _____

      From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Frank Senn
      Sent: Friday, 1 December 2006 15:06
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Protocol question



      I have not heard this. But I would certainly be interested to know if it is
      so. In any event, pope and patriarch are synonymous terms.

      Frank C. Senn

      "I. MacDonald" <macdonaldyemcan2002 <mailto:macdonaldyemcan2002%40yahoo.ca>
      @...> wrote: I understood that Pope Benedict had renounced the title of
      Patriarch of the West. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
      Ian+

      Frank Senn <fcsenn@sbcglobal. <mailto:fcsenn%40sbcglobal.net> net> wrote:
      Dwight,

      "Pope" is colloquial for "patriarch"---papa. The Bishop of Rome is the
      Patriarch of the West. There are various "popes" of the East.

      I don't agree with not mentioning titles in prayer. One may pray for the
      office as well as the person who holds it.

      Frank C. Senn

      DJP4LAW@aol. <mailto:DJP4LAW%40aol.com> com wrote: This may not be quite
      appropriately a liturgical question, and if not, perhaps someone can answer
      my question off-group. And I don't need an elaborate answer to this, even
      though I know that there's lots and lots to be said.

      My question is sparked by the meeting of the Pope from Rome and what one of
      my friends referred to as the "Pope of Orthodoxy" -- a designation I find
      problematic, but don't know enough to dispute.

      My understanding is that in speaking of the Pope (e.g., in referencing him
      in a formal conversation) an appropriate form is "His Holiness, Pope
      Benedict XVI." If that is correct as a kind of shorthand for all his other
      titles and roles, is there such a shorthand reference for the Ecumenical
      Patriarch, Bartholomew I? Or does "the Ecumenical Patriarch" work that way?

      As I have indicated, I know this may be only marginally a liturgical
      question. As a Lutheran, I eschew titles in praying for people. Thus, when I
      lead the people's intercessions, we pray for "Benedict, Bartholomew,
      Shanoudah, and all popes and patriarchs" -- absent correct titles. So my
      question is not "how to pray for them," but rather how to talk about them
      with proper reverence and respect.

      Peace
      Dwight Penas
      Minneapolis
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    • asteresplanetai
      ... while the information provided from the search results in the prior message was correct, a more particular response to Tom s question about
      Message 33 of 33 , Dec 4, 2006
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        +++

        > Posted by: "Tom Poelker" TomPoelker@... tapoelker
        > Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 3:10 pm ((PST))
        >
        > John, thanks for these explanations.
        > However, how many orthodox patriarchs are there now?
        > I understand the five (counting Rome) ancient patriarchates,
        > but how does Moscow become a patriarchate? It seems to me
        > that I have heard others.

        > Posted by: "dlewisaao@..." dlewisaao@...

        > Here is info from a website on the above topic and more (look up
        > Orthodox
        > Patriarchates):

        <snip>

        while the information provided from the search results in the prior
        message was correct, a more particular response to Tom's question
        about patriarchal titles and autocephalies might be found at the
        Ecumenical Patriarch's website: http://www.ec-patr.org/en/links.htm

        There you will find the following list:

        five ancient patriarchates:

        [Patriarchate of Rome www.vatican.va]
        [Patriarchate of Constantinople, or] Ecum. Patriarchate
        www.patriarchate.org
        Patriarchate of Alexandria www.greekorthodox-alexandria.org
        Patriarchate of Antioch www.antiochpat.org
        Patriarchate of Jerusalem www.jerusalem-patriarchate.org

        five historical patriarchates:

        Patriarchate of Moscow www.mospat.ru
        Patriarchate of Serbia spc.org.yu
        Patriarchate of Romania www.patriarhia.ro
        Patriarchate of Bulgaria bulch.tripod.com/boc/
        Patriarchate of Georgia www.patriarchate.ge/

        seven (or eight) other autocephalous churches:

        Church of Cyprus
        Church of Greece www.ecclesia.gr
        Church of Albania www.orthodoxalbania.org
        Church of Poland www.orthodox.pl
        Church of Czech - Slovakia www.pravoslav.gts.cz
        Church of Finland www.ort.fi
        Church of Estonia www.orthodoxa.org

        In addition, the Orthododox Church in America (www.oca.org) is
        recognized as autocephalous by the "russian bloc" of churches (and
        thus by the vast majority of orthodox faithful in the world) but not
        by the "greek bloc", who have the ecumenical patriarch on their side.

        So, counting the OCA, there are seventeen Orthodox churches. As you
        can see, nine of their senior hierarchs have the title 'patriarch'.
        The others are styled either 'archbishop' or 'metropolitan'.

        The list does not mention the Autonomous Churches of Mount Sinai
        (which has only about 20 faithful but has been autonomous since it
        fell behind enemy lines in the muslim conquest and was therefore cut
        off from the rest of the orth. world), and of Japan, and there might
        be one or two more. Autonomous churches are self-governing
        archdioceses, but they are not fully autocephalous, because the
        elections of their hierarchs must be approved by their mother
        churches. Also, there is usually only one (arch)bishop there, and
        since it takes 3 bishops to make a new bishop, they have no choice
        but to invite the bishops of the mother church (for Sinai,
        Jerusalem; for Japan, the OCA) when they want to make a new one.

        The title 'patriarch' is historical, either assumed long ago by the
        see and then recognized by ecumenical synod, or awarded by an
        ecumenical synod. Otherwise, the titles of a church remain as they
        were upon receiving autocephaly. So in Greece the first hierarch is
        an archbishop, and 'metropolitan' is an honorific, whereas in the
        OCA, it's the other way around, following russian custom in which
        metropolitans are higher than archbishops.

        Regards from rainy kampala,

        john burnett
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