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Re: [liturgy-l] Ecumenical Eucharist

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  • John Sleasman
    ... Not to mention what the varied denominational response might be to Hippolytus s distribution of milk mixed with honey between the bread and the wine....
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 3, 2006
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      Frank Senn wrote:
      > No early Roman liturgy before other splintered off is extant. If
      > Hippolytus is taken as an example (ca. 215), he has already splittered
      > off from the mainline Roman Church as history's first counter-pope.
      Not to mention what the varied denominational response might be to
      Hippolytus's distribution of milk mixed with honey between the bread and
      the wine....

      John Sleasman
      ELCA laity
      Solon OH
    • asteresplanetai
      +++ ... Amen. Liturgical differences are not the issue, doctrinal ones are. In the Orthodox Church we have at least five liturgies, which are all fine, and
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 4, 2006
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        +++

        james o'reagan wrote:

        > look to the richness of a unified diversity.

        Amen.

        Liturgical differences are not the issue, doctrinal ones are. In the
        Orthodox Church we have at least five liturgies, which are all fine,
        and there seems to be no problem with adding a sixth, the new
        "Western Rite". Before the Schism there was no problem with the old
        one either, nor, come to think of it, with the "Oriental" rites
        either. Diversity is wealth!

        In areas like Sicily and Calabria, when Greeks and Latins were in the
        same church, the episcopate passed from one to the other without
        issue. Parishes continued to do what they had always done and if a
        new parish was formed, it got its tradition from its mother parish.
        Even Athos had a Latin (Benedictine) monastery. No problem with
        diversity, per se. When the split divided greeks and latins, they
        eventually stopped going to each other's churches.

        But i can't say we would have any enthusiasm for a common liturgy
        that would united us around a common table with heretics (sorry, Frank).

        regards from cool berkeley,

        john burnett
      • episcopusseliensis
        ... splittered ... and ... But Hippolytus gives an example of a liturgy for an episcopal consecration. Probably the milk and honey could be omitted? :-(
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 4, 2006
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          --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, John Sleasman <johnsleasman@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Frank Senn wrote:
          > > No early Roman liturgy before other splintered off is extant. If
          > > Hippolytus is taken as an example (ca. 215), he has already
          splittered
          > > off from the mainline Roman Church as history's first counter-pope.
          > Not to mention what the varied denominational response might be to
          > Hippolytus's distribution of milk mixed with honey between the bread
          and
          > the wine....
          >
          > John Sleasman
          > ELCA laity
          > Solon OH
          >

          But Hippolytus gives an example of a liturgy for an episcopal
          consecration. Probably the milk and honey could be omitted? :-(
          +Johannes Ephrem
        • Frank Senn
          As far as we can tell, the first time Hippolytus liturgical material was used in actual church liturgies was in the 20th century. The Apostolic Tradition was
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 4, 2006
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            As far as we can tell, the first time Hippolytus' liturgical material was used in actual church liturgies was in the 20th century. The Apostolic Tradition was written in opposition to prevailing practices in the early 3rd century, and was probably never used. Its material was cited in later church orders, like the Apostolic Constitutions, which was also probably never used.

            Frank C. Senn

            Douglas Cowling <dcowling@...> wrote: On 10/3/06 7:25 PM, "ensifer500ad" <jamesstreight@...> wrote:

            > To Doug...these other churches that you mention.. did not evolve in
            > empty space...subapostolic...patrician.. whatever...they grew upon
            > these early churches..they are our roots...no one could know what to
            > disagree with if the early guys wernt there to critique..

            I personally am an Hippolytan Romantic and always think that the
            subapostolic liturgies are best. Howver, there are many protestant churches
            who have essentially lost the tradition of the eucharist and merely retain
            variations on the synaxis of the early rites. They are quite content to see
            their worship as originating in the 16th century or later.

            Doug Cowling
            Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
            Church of the Messiah, Toronto






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          • Frank Senn
            I don t think I advocated this, John. I think I only pointed out that the NAAL came to the conclusion that it could not sponsor non-denominational Eucharists
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 4, 2006
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              I don't think I advocated this, John. I think I only pointed out that the NAAL came to the conclusion that it could not sponsor non-denominational Eucharists planned by the Academy. Any Eucharist offered at NAAL meetings is subject to the discipline of the dneominational group that offers it.

              Frank

              asteresplanetai <asteresplanetai@...> wrote:
              But i can't say we would have any enthusiasm for a common liturgy
              that would united us around a common table with heretics (sorry, Frank).

              regards from cool berkeley,

              john burnett





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