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Re: [liturgy-l] Denomination and Jurisdiction

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  • Noel Stoutenburg
    ... While there _are_ differences between the worship in the LC-MS and ELCA, a casual observer may not immediately see many of them. One difference that will
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 31, 2005
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      Lampada wrote:

      >Greetings Jerry and friends,
      >So the Lutheran church in my town is LCMS. What distinguishes their worship?
      >
      >
      While there _are_ differences between the worship in the LC-MS and ELCA,
      a casual observer may not immediately see many of them. One difference
      that will be immediately visible on a sunday where communion is
      celebrated, is that the ELCA has an open table, and the LC-MS has a
      closed one. Another difference immediately obvious in a larger
      assembly: the ELCA ordains women; the LC-MS does not. The LC-MS takes
      the position that the Bible is literally true, and inerrant, the ELCA
      teaches that, although the Bible is the revealed word of God, it was
      written and handed down by men, and is nor more protected from human
      error than any other human endeavor.

      Beyond that, the differences between the LC-MS and ELCA are less about
      the structure or content of the liturgy, and more about differences in
      the theology which undelies it.

      ns
    • Frank Senn
      Yes, I think you are wrong about Niemoeller. He was a confessor, not a martyr. Frank C. Senn Rev. Jerry Kliner wrote: It has been
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 1, 2005
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        Yes, I think you are wrong about Niemoeller. He was a confessor, not a martyr.

        Frank C. Senn

        "Rev. Jerry Kliner" <jerry_kliner@...> wrote:
        It has been raised to my attention that I may be wrong about the
        death of Pr. Martin Niemoller... If I am, my greatest and most
        humble applogies!

        Pax Christi;
        Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

        --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Kliner
        wrote:
        >
        > I too count him as a Martyr... The question of
        > martyrdom seems to come down on the question of "why"
        > he was martyred. Bonhoeffer was arrested because of
        > his involvement in a plot to assinate Hitler, not
        > directly because of his identity of "Christian." It
        > may seem like a splitting of hairs, but it is
        > significant because many of the early martyrs died
        > because they professed the faith and did not recant,
        > even though it meant suffering and death. Can the act
        > of refusing to sacrifice to the (pagan) gods and
        > refusal to deny Christ be equated with a political act
        > to end a demonic regime? I think the answer is "yes,"
        > but even I have to admit that it is not a completely
        > comfortable answer.
        >
        > The irony is of course, that there are other Lutheran
        > martyrs that are not counted, such as Martin Niemoller
        > who organized the "Pastor's Defense League" and died
        > in Teagel prison, but is not as popular because he
        > took a "softer" stance of active defiance but
        > remaining in the state Church.
        >
        > Pax Christi;
        > Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
        >
        > --- Pastor Art Hebbeler STS
        >
        wrote:
        >
        > > | -----Original Message-----
        > > | From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        > > [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On
        > > Behalf Of Lampada
        > > | Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:58 PM
        > > | To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        > > | Subject: [liturgy-l] Denomination and Jurisdiction
        > > |
        > > | Dietrich Bonhoeffer, German Pastor and Theologian
        > > | > (and some consider Martyr), lived and taught in
        > > Nazi
        > > | > Germany. He was hanged in 1945, just prior to
        > > the end
        > > | > of the war. His major works include "Life
        > > Together,"
        > > | > a book that deals with the great gift of
        > > Christian
        > > | > community, and "The Cost of Discipleship" whose
        > > title
        > > | > says it all. His commemoration day on the
        > > Lutheran
        > > | > calendar is April 9, the date of his death.
        > > |
        > > | Also I was told Dietrich was a martyr by an
        > > Orthodox priest, but you say
        > > | only some considered him to be a Martyr. Why was
        > > he hung?
        > > | The Lutheran church has a calendar too? Of course.
        > > Oh boy, I am ignorant!
        > >
        > >
        > > Bonhoeffer was executed by the Nazis for his
        > > involvement against Hitler.
        > > Rather than capitulating to the "popular" attitudes
        > > of the official church,
        > > he remained true to his confessional stand.
        > > (Advisory note: I _greatly_
        > > simplify things here, so fellow historians, cut me
        > > some slack ).
        > >
        > > I count him as a martyr, FWIW.
        > >
        > > Art Hebbeler
        > >
        > > --This message has been virus-checked prior to
        > > sending--
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to
        > > the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
        > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > > liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________
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        Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
        liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
        Yahoo! Groups Links








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jerry Kliner
        ... There is one visible difference between the LC-MS and the ELCA worship practice which, I believe, is significant... The LC-MS (in Lutheran Worship, I m
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 1, 2005
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          Noel Stoutenburg wrote:

          > While there _are_ differences between the worship in
          > the LC-MS and ELCA,
          > a casual observer may not immediately see many of
          > them. One difference
          > that will be immediately visible on a sunday where
          > communion is
          > celebrated, is that the ELCA has an open table, and
          > the LC-MS has a
          > closed one. Another difference immediately obvious
          > in a larger
          > assembly: the ELCA ordains women; the LC-MS does
          > not. The LC-MS takes
          > the position that the Bible is literally true, and
          > inerrant, the ELCA
          > teaches that, although the Bible is the revealed
          > word of God, it was
          > written and handed down by men, and is nor more
          > protected from human
          > error than any other human endeavor.
          >
          > Beyond that, the differences between the LC-MS and
          > ELCA are less about
          > the structure or content of the liturgy, and more
          > about differences in
          > the theology which undelies it.

          There is one visible difference between the LC-MS and
          the ELCA worship practice which, I believe, is
          significant... The LC-MS (in "Lutheran Worship," I'm
          not sure about their new book, but I'd be surprised if
          it changes) makes no allowance for lay worship
          assistants, and the ELCA (in "Lutheran Book of
          Worship" and beyond) not only allows for, but
          encourages lay worship assistants. You are far more
          likely to see lay lectors, assisting ministers, other
          worship leaders in an ELCA parish. It may seem a
          small point, but I think it is an important one,
          considering the discussions on this list as of late.

          Pax Christi;
          Pr. Jerry Kliner





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        • Jerry Kliner
          It is not the first time I have been in error, nor (I am sure) the last... Again, mea culpa and thanks for the correction! Confessor is a worthy title! Pax
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 1, 2005
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            It is not the first time I have been in error, nor (I
            am sure) the last... Again, mea culpa and thanks for
            the correction! Confessor is a worthy title!

            Pax Christi;
            Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

            --- Frank Senn <fcsenn@...> wrote:

            > Yes, I think you are wrong about Niemoeller. He was
            > a confessor, not a martyr.
            >
            > Frank C. Senn
            >
            > "Rev. Jerry Kliner" <jerry_kliner@...> wrote:
            > It has been raised to my attention that I may be
            > wrong about the
            > death of Pr. Martin Niemoller... If I am, my
            > greatest and most
            > humble applogies!
            >
            > Pax Christi;
            > Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
            >
            > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Kliner
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I too count him as a Martyr... The question of
            > > martyrdom seems to come down on the question of
            > "why"
            > > he was martyred. Bonhoeffer was arrested because
            > of
            > > his involvement in a plot to assinate Hitler, not
            > > directly because of his identity of "Christian."
            > It
            > > may seem like a splitting of hairs, but it is
            > > significant because many of the early martyrs died
            > > because they professed the faith and did not
            > recant,
            > > even though it meant suffering and death. Can the
            > act
            > > of refusing to sacrifice to the (pagan) gods and
            > > refusal to deny Christ be equated with a political
            > act
            > > to end a demonic regime? I think the answer is
            > "yes,"
            > > but even I have to admit that it is not a
            > completely
            > > comfortable answer.
            > >
            > > The irony is of course, that there are other
            > Lutheran
            > > martyrs that are not counted, such as Martin
            > Niemoller
            > > who organized the "Pastor's Defense League" and
            > died
            > > in Teagel prison, but is not as popular because he
            > > took a "softer" stance of active defiance but
            > > remaining in the state Church.
            > >
            > > Pax Christi;
            > > Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
            > >
            > > --- Pastor Art Hebbeler STS
            > >
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > > | -----Original Message-----
            > > > | From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
            > > > [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On
            > > > Behalf Of Lampada
            > > > | Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:58 PM
            > > > | To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
            > > > | Subject: [liturgy-l] Denomination and
            > Jurisdiction
            > > > |
            > > > | Dietrich Bonhoeffer, German Pastor and
            > Theologian
            > > > | > (and some consider Martyr), lived and taught
            > in
            > > > Nazi
            > > > | > Germany. He was hanged in 1945, just prior
            > to
            > > > the end
            > > > | > of the war. His major works include "Life
            > > > Together,"
            > > > | > a book that deals with the great gift of
            > > > Christian
            > > > | > community, and "The Cost of Discipleship"
            > whose
            > > > title
            > > > | > says it all. His commemoration day on the
            > > > Lutheran
            > > > | > calendar is April 9, the date of his death.
            > > > |
            > > > | Also I was told Dietrich was a martyr by an
            > > > Orthodox priest, but you say
            > > > | only some considered him to be a Martyr. Why
            > was
            > > > he hung?
            > > > | The Lutheran church has a calendar too? Of
            > course.
            > > > Oh boy, I am ignorant!
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Bonhoeffer was executed by the Nazis for his
            > > > involvement against Hitler.
            > > > Rather than capitulating to the "popular"
            > attitudes
            > > > of the official church,
            > > > he remained true to his confessional stand.
            > > > (Advisory note: I _greatly_
            > > > simplify things here, so fellow historians, cut
            > me
            > > > some slack ).
            > > >
            > > > I count him as a martyr, FWIW.
            > > >
            > > > Art Hebbeler
            > > >
            > > > --This message has been virus-checked prior to
            > > > sending--
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
            > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write
            > to
            > > > the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
            > > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > __________________________________
            > > Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in
            > one click.
            > > http://farechase.yahoo.com
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to
            > the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to
            > the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            > liturgy-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >




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