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Re: Morning vs Evening (When the Liturgical Day Begins)

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  • Father Robert Lyons, SST
    ... day *does* run from sunset to sunset. ... Perhaps conviction was a strong word. ... earth is gained by trying to pretend that there is a liturgical day
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 5, 2005
      --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Simon Kershaw <simon@k...> wrote:
      > Perhaps because few if any of us have a real conviction that the
      day *does* run from sunset to sunset.
      >

      Perhaps 'conviction' was a strong word.

      > In real life the day does run from morning to evening. What on
      earth is gained by trying to pretend that there is a liturgical day
      that does otherwise?
      >

      Throughout the vast majority of Christian history, at least on major
      feast days, the day has begun on the evening before (the concept of
      First and Second Vespers in the Western Rite being the example).
      Rome retains it, and as you noted, even the CoE does too.

      Still, the difference I see is that when the sun sets on secular
      Sunday, it is the beginning of Monday, for as John quite
      appropriately quoted, "There was evening, there was morning; one
      day."

      > In the CofE over the last decade there has been something of an
      encouragement in revision of lectionary and sanctorale and daily
      office to pretend that the day begins in the evening. Personally, I
      am pleased to say that the 'final' versions of these works have
      discarded the idea.
      >

      From my perspective, that would be far preferable and much more
      historic than beginning the day at sunrise. You see, there is day
      and there is day. There is the 24 hour period of time we call the
      day, and there is also the working portion of that 24 hours that we
      also call the day. It's all a matter of context... and since we
      have inherited through the Apostles and the Early Church the Hebrew
      understanding of the day, (evening/morning/one day) I think we would
      do well to support our links with history on this one.

      My opinon, of course... yours may vary.

      Rob+
    • Simon Kershaw
      ... But I imagine that most of us talk about the end of the day , the time when we go to bed. And that is usually well after sunset, probably close to
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 5, 2005
        Robert Lyons wrote:

        >>From my perspective, that would be far preferable and much more
        > historic than beginning the day at sunrise. You see, there is day
        > and there is day. There is the 24 hour period of time we call the
        > day, and there is also the working portion of that 24 hours that we
        > also call the day. It's all a matter of context... and since we
        > have inherited through the Apostles and the Early Church the Hebrew
        > understanding of the day, (evening/morning/one day) I think we would
        > do well to support our links with history on this one.

        But I imagine that most of us talk about 'the end of the day', the time
        when we go to bed. And that is usually well after sunset, probably close
        to midnight for many of us. Indeed, if we say or sing compline we might
        even recite the line 'Before the ending of the day', implying that the
        day is about to end.

        And throughout our culture we talk of 'dawn' as meaning the start of
        something -- it would make no sense in our culture for 'dawn' to mean
        the middle of the day (indeed that very phrase is self-contradictory,
        since the middle of the day is noon, when the sun is at its highest).

        The idea of two Evensongs or Vespers, First Vespers and Second Vespers,
        is, certainly astronomically, somewhat ridiculous IMHO. A single day
        does not have two evenings -- either it begins at one sunset, in which
        case it is over by the next sunset, or it begins in the night watches
        when we are asleep (or perhaps at noon if one is actually an astronomer
        keeping Julian days!)

        I am all for standing against the encroachment of secular culture: I
        insist on Sunday as the first day of the week, and I don't work or shop
        on Sundays. I try to minimize the anticipation of Christmas before 25
        December. And so on. But I think that trying to insist that there is a
        liturgical day which runs from sunset to sunset, every day throughout
        the year**, is just pointless.

        ** I will make an exception for the Triduum, where there is something
        important to be said about the unity of the Jewish day which begins with
        the Last Supper and ends with the burial of Christ.

        > My opinon, of course... yours may vary.

        Ditto, of course.

        simon

        --
        Simon Kershaw
        simon@...
        St Ives, Cambridgeshire
      • Douglas Cowling
        ... I think this having your liturgical cake and eating it too (grin) Doug Cowling Director of Music & Liturgical Arts Church of the Messiah, Toronto
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 5, 2005
          On 10/5/05 12:17 PM, "Simon Kershaw" <simon@...> wrote:

          > But I think that trying to insist that there is a
          > liturgical day which runs from sunset to sunset, every day throughout
          > the year**, is just pointless.
          >
          > ** I will make an exception for the Triduum, where there is something
          > important to be said about the unity of the Jewish day which begins with
          > the Last Supper and ends with the burial of Christ.

          I think this having your liturgical cake and eating it too (grin)


          Doug Cowling
          Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
          Church of the Messiah, Toronto
        • Michael Joe Thannisch
          Some of this may be bound by language. My Hebrew is not very good, but in German and many Germanic languages, Saturday night is not Saturday night, but
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 5, 2005
            Some of this may be bound by language. My Hebrew is not very good, but in
            German and many Germanic languages, Saturday night is not Saturday night,
            but Sonnabend (literally Soneve). For me, especially when I am thinking in
            German, it is very easy for me to begin the day at Sunset.

            Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach

            +Michael Joe Thannisch, SST, OSL
            mjthan@...
            http://www.christiansynod.org/

            The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Father Robert Lyons, SST" <frrob@...>


            > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Simon Kershaw <simon@k...> wrote:
            >> Perhaps because few if any of us have a real conviction that the
            > day *does* run from sunset to sunset.
            >>
            >
            > Perhaps 'conviction' was a strong word.
            >
            >>
            >
            > Throughout the vast majority of Christian history, at least on major
            > feast days, the day has begun on the evening before (the concept of
            > First and Second Vespers in the Western Rite being the example).
            > Rome retains it, and as you noted, even the CoE does too.
            >
            > Still, the difference I see is that when the sun sets on secular
            > Sunday, it is the beginning of Monday, for as John quite
            > appropriately quoted, "There was evening, there was morning; one
            > day."
            >
          • Michael Joe Thannisch
            I prefer to leave out the second evensong. It does seem silly. Also, I think we need to think on how modernity affects us. I have noticed when living with
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 5, 2005
              I prefer to leave out the second evensong. It does seem silly.

              Also, I think we need to think on how modernity affects us. I have noticed
              when living with primitive culturs, that unless there is some special feast
              or celebration, that most people who live in areas without electricity tend
              to go to bed within an hour of sunset.

              Shalom and blessings in the Name of Yeshua

              +Mar Michael Abportus
              mjthan@...
              http://www.christiansynod.org/

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Simon Kershaw" <simon@...>
              > But I imagine that most of us talk about 'the end of the day', the time
              > when we go to bed. And that is usually well after sunset, probably close
              > to midnight for many of us. Indeed, if we say or sing compline we might
              > even recite the line 'Before the ending of the day', implying that the
              > day is about to end.
              >
              > The idea of two Evensongs or Vespers, First Vespers and Second Vespers,
              > is, certainly astronomically, somewhat ridiculous IMHO. A single day
              > does not have two evenings -- either it begins at one sunset, in which
              > case it is over by the next sunset, or it begins in the night watches
              > when we are asleep (or perhaps at noon if one is actually an astronomer
              > keeping Julian days!)
              >
            • episcopusseliensis
              Dear list friends ! The evening before morning model goes even more deeply into Christian tradition, of course with ancient Jewish roots. The Orthodox church
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 6, 2005
                Dear list friends !

                The "evening before morning" model goes even more deeply into
                Christian tradition, of course with ancient Jewish roots. The
                Orthodox church year starts - as the Jewish calendar - in September -
                with the autumn, the "evening of the year". It is a deeply Christian-
                rooted thought that it has to be darkness before light, winter before
                spring, cross before resurrection, baptism to Christ's death before
                similarity to His glorious rising up,confession before absolution -
                and death before life. As it was for the people of Israel: desert
                before the promised land.

                In Christ

                +Johannes Ephrem


                --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Father Robert Lyons, SST"
                <frrob@s...> wrote:
                > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Simon Kershaw <simon@k...> wrote:
                > > Perhaps because few if any of us have a real conviction that the
                > day *does* run from sunset to sunset.
                > >
                >
                > Perhaps 'conviction' was a strong word.
                >
                > > In real life the day does run from morning to evening. What on
                > earth is gained by trying to pretend that there is a liturgical day
                > that does otherwise?
                > >
                >
                > Throughout the vast majority of Christian history, at least on
                major
                > feast days, the day has begun on the evening before (the concept of
                > First and Second Vespers in the Western Rite being the example).
                > Rome retains it, and as you noted, even the CoE does too.
                >
                > Still, the difference I see is that when the sun sets on secular
                > Sunday, it is the beginning of Monday, for as John quite
                > appropriately quoted, "There was evening, there was morning; one
                > day."
                >
                > > In the CofE over the last decade there has been something of an
                > encouragement in revision of lectionary and sanctorale and daily
                > office to pretend that the day begins in the evening. Personally, I
                > am pleased to say that the 'final' versions of these works have
                > discarded the idea.
                > >
                >
                > From my perspective, that would be far preferable and much more
                > historic than beginning the day at sunrise. You see, there is day
                > and there is day. There is the 24 hour period of time we call the
                > day, and there is also the working portion of that 24 hours that we
                > also call the day. It's all a matter of context... and since we
                > have inherited through the Apostles and the Early Church the Hebrew
                > understanding of the day, (evening/morning/one day) I think we
                would
                > do well to support our links with history on this one.
                >
                > My opinon, of course... yours may vary.
                >
                > Rob+
              • Michael Joe Thannisch
                Thank you very mcuh for this. It is an excellent point, and for myself at least gives me much to think about. Shalom B Yeshua HaMoshiach +Michael Joe
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 6, 2005
                  Thank you very mcuh for this. It is an excellent point, and for myself at
                  least gives me much to think about.

                  Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach

                  +Michael Joe Thannisch, SST, OSL
                  mjthan@...
                  http://www.christiansynod.org/

                  The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "episcopusseliensis" <tkverno@...>
                  >
                  > The "evening before morning" model goes even more deeply into
                  > Christian tradition, of course with ancient Jewish roots. The
                  > Orthodox church year starts - as the Jewish calendar - in September -
                  > with the autumn, the "evening of the year". It is a deeply Christian-
                  > rooted thought that it has to be darkness before light, winter before
                  > spring, cross before resurrection, baptism to Christ's death before
                  > similarity to His glorious rising up,confession before absolution -
                  > and death before life. As it was for the people of Israel: desert
                  > before the promised land.
                  >
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