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Re-Baptism

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  • Douglas Cowling
    From today s NY Times regarding Supreme Court appointment, Harriet E. Miers She decided that she wanted faith to be a bigger part of her life, Justice
    Message 1 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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      From today's NY Times regarding Supreme Court appointment, Harriet E. Miers

      '"She decided that she wanted faith to be a bigger part of her life,"
      Justice Hecht, who now serves on the Texas Supreme Court, said in an
      interview. "One evening she called me to her office and said she was ready
      to make a commitment" to accept Jesus Christ as her savior and be born
      again, he said. He walked down the hallway from his office to hers, and
      there amid the legal briefs and court papers, Ms. Miers and Justice Hecht
      "prayed and talked," he said.

      She was baptized not long after that, at the Valley View Christian Church.

      It was a pivotal personal transformation for the woman now named for a seat
      on the United States Supreme Court, not entirely unlike that experienced by
      President Bush and others in the Texas political and business establishment
      of that time.

      Ms. Miers, born Roman Catholic, became an evangelical Christian ... '


      Interesting how there seem to be some jurisdiction questions.


      Doug Cowling
      Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
      Church of the Messiah, Toronto
    • Brian Burch
      I wonder what happened to And I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins?... ... Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into
      Message 2 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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        I wonder what happened to "And I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of
        sins?...

        It was written:

        >
        >She was baptized not long after that, at the Valley View Christian Church.
        >...
        >
        >Ms. Miers, born Roman Catholic, became an evangelical Christian ... '
        >
        >
        >Interesting how there seem to be some jurisdiction questions.
        >
        >
        >Doug Cowling
        >Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
        >Church of the Messiah, Toronto
        >

        Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court?
        (James 2:6b, RSV)
      • Matthew Weber
        ... I don t think the creeds are accepted as dogmatic formulations by most Baptist (and Baptist-derived) churches. Matthew Weber Curatorial Assistant Jean Gray
        Message 3 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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          At 01:09 PM 10/5/2005 -0400, you wrote:
          >I wonder what happened to "And I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of
          >sins?...

          I don't think the creeds are accepted as dogmatic formulations by most
          Baptist (and Baptist-derived) churches.


          Matthew Weber
          Curatorial Assistant
          Jean Gray Hargrove Music Library
          University of California, Berkeley

          Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?
          The Holy Bible (The New Testament): The Gospel According to St
          Matthew, 20:15
        • Kenneth Doll
          Is this really that surprising? Or even interesting? There are many groups that don t recognize infant baptism. ... Miers ... Church.
          Message 4 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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            Is this really that surprising? Or even interesting?
            There are many groups that don't recognize infant baptism.

            --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Cowling <dcowling@s...> wrote:
            > From today's NY Times regarding Supreme Court appointment, Harriet E.
            Miers
            >
            > She was baptized not long after that, at the Valley View Christian
            Church.
            >
            > Ms. Miers, born Roman Catholic, became an evangelical Christian ... '
            >
            >
            > Interesting how there seem to be some jurisdiction questions.
            >
            >
            > Doug Cowling
            > Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
            > Church of the Messiah, Toronto
          • Christian McConnell
            ... remission of ... No she wasn t. What about Tertullian s Christians are made, not born ... ? Chris
            Message 5 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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              --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Brian Burch <burch@w...> wrote:
              > I wonder what happened to "And I acknowledge one baptism for the
              remission of
              > sins?...

              And what about:

              > >Ms. Miers, born Roman Catholic,

              No she wasn't. What about Tertullian's "Christians are made, not born
              ..."?

              Chris
            • Michael Joe Thannisch
              Many Evangelicals do not recognise child baptistm. Some groups, such as the Adventists baptise people again if they fall into grave sin. Shalom B Yeshua
              Message 6 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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                Many Evangelicals do not recognise child baptistm. Some groups, such as the
                Adventists baptise people again if they fall into grave sin.

                Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach

                +Michael Joe Thannisch, SST, OSL
                mjthan@...
                http://www.christiansynod.org/

                The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.

                ----- Original Message -----

                >I wonder what happened to "And I acknowledge one baptism for the remission
                >of
                > sins?...
                >
                > It was written:
                >
                >>
                >>She was baptized not long after that, at the Valley View Christian Church.
                >>...
              • Jerry Kliner
                You re assuming that these particular non-denominational evangelicals subscribe to the Great Ecumenical Creeds... My guess is that they are anabaptists and
                Message 7 of 27 , Oct 5, 2005
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                  You're assuming that these particular
                  "non-denominational evangelicals" subscribe to the
                  Great Ecumenical Creeds... My guess is that they are
                  anabaptists and don't believe that:
                  1- Baptism grants forgiveness of sins... and
                  2- That they recognize the Sacrament of Holy Baptism
                  from any other tradition but their own, and certainly
                  not infant baptism or by another mode than full,
                  bodily, immersion.

                  We (true Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Orthodox)
                  have to realize that not all Christians are on the
                  "same" side. Many are on their own side, alone, and
                  refuse to recognize us as Christians.

                  Pax Christi;
                  Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS


                  --- Brian Burch wrote:
                  > I wonder what happened to "And I acknowledge one
                  > baptism for the remission of
                  > sins?...




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                • Brian Bennett
                  ... I think that there are plenty of Baptists and Evangelicals who could affirm what the creeds say, even if they might not use them liturgically. The real
                  Message 8 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                    > --- Brian Burch wrote:
                    > > I wonder what happened to "And I acknowledge one
                    > > baptism for the remission of
                    > > sins?...
                    >

                    I think that there are plenty of Baptists and Evangelicals who could
                    affirm what the creeds say, even if they might not use them
                    liturgically. The real question I think is how one defines baptism.

                    I think many would acknowledge that there is one baptism for the
                    forgiveness of sins, but Miers have never been truly baptized, so she
                    needed to be baptized, not rebaptized.

                    Luther argued that infant baptism was pleasing to Christ since the
                    evidence was that many of those who had been baptized as infants were
                    leading holy lives. Leading holy lives, I think, would be good
                    evidence that infant baptism (or baptism by sprinkling, etc.) was true
                    baptism.

                    Now if only I could point to some Lutherans who were actually doing
                    it... :)

                    Peace,
                    Brian
                  • nataliemoreau2000
                    What about baptism of desire? Could we presume the born again experience expresses a baptism of desire? Don t they call it baptism in the Holy Spirit ? -N
                    Message 9 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                      What about baptism of desire? Could we presume the "born again"
                      experience expresses a baptism of desire?
                      Don't they call it "baptism in the Holy Spirit"?

                      -N

                      --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Bennett" <bbennett@b...>
                      wrote:
                      > > --- Brian Burch wrote:
                      > > > I wonder what happened to "And I acknowledge one
                      > > > baptism for the remission of
                      > > > sins?...
                      > >
                      >
                      > I think that there are plenty of Baptists and Evangelicals who
                      could
                      > affirm what the creeds say, even if they might not use them
                      > liturgically. The real question I think is how one defines
                      baptism.
                      >
                      > I think many would acknowledge that there is one baptism for the
                      > forgiveness of sins, but Miers have never been truly baptized, so
                      she
                      > needed to be baptized, not rebaptized.
                      >
                      > Luther argued that infant baptism was pleasing to Christ since the
                      > evidence was that many of those who had been baptized as infants
                      were
                      > leading holy lives. Leading holy lives, I think, would be good
                      > evidence that infant baptism (or baptism by sprinkling, etc.) was
                      true
                      > baptism.
                      >
                      > Now if only I could point to some Lutherans who were actually doing
                      > it... :)
                      >
                      > Peace,
                      > Brian
                    • john19@unidial.com
                      Does anyone know for sure that she was not baptised as an infant? I find it a little difficult to believe that an RC infant born in 1945 would have missed it.
                      Message 10 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                        Does anyone know for sure that she was not baptised as an infant? I
                        find it a little difficult to believe that an RC infant born in 1945 would
                        have missed it.
                        John Dornheim
                        >> --- Brian Burch wrote:
                        >> > I wonder what happened to "And I acknowledge one
                        >> > baptism for the remission of
                        >> > sins?...
                        >>
                        >
                        >I think that there are plenty of Baptists and Evangelicals who could
                        >affirm what the creeds say, even if they might not use them
                        >liturgically. The real question I think is how one defines baptism.
                        >
                        >I think many would acknowledge that there is one baptism for the
                        >forgiveness of sins, but Miers have never been truly baptized, so she
                        >needed to be baptized, not rebaptized.
                        >
                        >Luther argued that infant baptism was pleasing to Christ since the
                        >evidence was that many of those who had been baptized as infants
                        were
                        >leading holy lives. Leading holy lives, I think, would be good
                        >evidence that infant baptism (or baptism by sprinkling, etc.) was true
                        >baptism.
                        >
                        >Now if only I could point to some Lutherans who were actually doing
                        >it... :)
                        >
                        >Peace,
                        >Brian
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                        To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Pastor Art Hebbeler STS
                        On our congregation s web site, one of the most-requested pages is Are Lutherans Christian? Sometimes, when I read stuff out of Chicago, I wonder myself...
                        Message 11 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                          On our congregation's web site, one of the most-requested pages is "Are
                          Lutherans Christian?"

                          Sometimes, when I read stuff out of Chicago, I wonder myself... <G>

                          Art Hebbeler
                          --This message has been virus-checked prior to sending--
                          | -----Original Message-----
                          |
                          |<SNIP>
                          |
                          | We (true Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Orthodox)
                          | have to realize that not all Christians are on the
                          | "same" side. Many are on their own side, alone, and
                          | refuse to recognize us as Christians.
                          |
                          | Pax Christi;
                          | Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
                        • Kenneth Doll
                          Could you post the web site so we could all read this? Thanks. KAD ... is Are
                          Message 12 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                            Could you post the web site so we could all read this?
                            Thanks.
                            KAD

                            --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Pastor Art Hebbeler STS"
                            <pastorhebbeler@a...> wrote:
                            > On our congregation's web site, one of the most-requested pages
                            is "Are
                            > Lutherans Christian?"
                            >
                            > Sometimes, when I read stuff out of Chicago, I wonder myself... <G>
                            >
                            > Art Hebbeler
                            > --This message has been virus-checked prior to sending--
                            > | -----Original Message-----
                            > |
                            > |<SNIP>
                            > |
                            > | We (true Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Orthodox)
                            > | have to realize that not all Christians are on the
                            > | "same" side. Many are on their own side, alone, and
                            > | refuse to recognize us as Christians.
                            > |
                            > | Pax Christi;
                            > | Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
                          • Pastor Art Hebbeler STS
                            www.AbidingPresence-Beltsville.org Art --This message has been virus-checked prior to sending--
                            Message 13 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                              www.AbidingPresence-Beltsville.org

                              Art

                              --This message has been virus-checked prior to sending--

                              | -----Original Message-----
                              | From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On
                              | Behalf Of Kenneth Doll
                              | Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 10:47 AM
                              | To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                              | Subject: [liturgy-l] Web site for "Are Lutherans Christian?"?
                              |
                              | Could you post the web site so we could all read this?
                              | Thanks.
                              | KAD
                              |
                              | --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Pastor Art Hebbeler STS"
                              | <pastorhebbeler@a...> wrote:
                              | > On our congregation's web site, one of the most-requested pages
                              | is "Are
                              | > Lutherans Christian?"
                              | >
                              | > Sometimes, when I read stuff out of Chicago, I wonder myself... <G>
                              | >
                              | > Art Hebbeler
                            • Jerry Kliner
                              BTW, my reason for using the phrase True Protestants is because to call anabaptists protestant is somewhat erronous, because they have historically sought
                              Message 14 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                                BTW, my reason for using the phrase "True Protestants"
                                is because to call anabaptists "protestant" is
                                somewhat erronous, because they have historically
                                sought separation, not protest and reform. But
                                protestants are generally lumped together by vitue of
                                being "non-Catholic or Orthodox." I wonder, though,
                                just how much those who are "Protestant" by virtue of
                                honest "protest" have in common with "protestants" who
                                are separtists.

                                It is interesting to observe that very few Lutherans
                                really care about what the Reformation is all about or
                                wish to see the reform of the Catholic Church. So, of
                                course my phrase really isn't true anyway.

                                Pax Christi;
                                Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS


                                --- Kenneth Doll <dollpka@...> wrote:

                                > Could you post the web site so we could all read
                                > this?
                                > Thanks.
                                > KAD
                                >
                                > --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Pastor Art
                                > Hebbeler STS"
                                > <pastorhebbeler@a...> wrote:
                                > > On our congregation's web site, one of the
                                > most-requested pages
                                > is "Are
                                > > Lutherans Christian?"
                                > >
                                > > Sometimes, when I read stuff out of Chicago, I
                                > wonder myself... <G>
                                > >
                                > > Art Hebbeler
                                > > --This message has been virus-checked prior to
                                > sending--
                                > > | -----Original Message-----
                                > > |
                                > > |<SNIP>
                                > > |
                                > > | We (true Protestants, Roman Catholics, and
                                > Orthodox)
                                > > | have to realize that not all Christians are on
                                > the
                                > > | "same" side. Many are on their own side, alone,
                                > and
                                > > | refuse to recognize us as Christians.
                                > > |
                                > > | Pax Christi;
                                > > | Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to
                                > the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                                >
                                >
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                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >




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                              • Timothy Parker
                                This brings to mind an Old Testament professor of mine at the Episcopal Theological School at Claremont, James Brenneman. He introduced himself to the class as
                                Message 15 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                                  This brings to mind an Old Testament professor of mine at the
                                  Episcopal Theological School at Claremont, James Brenneman. He
                                  introduced himself to the class as being comfortable teaching in the
                                  Anglican context because, as a mennonite, he claims to be neither
                                  protestant nor catholic, while the Anglicans tend to insist they are
                                  both.

                                  Timothy Parker
                                  Austin, Texas



                                  On Oct 6, 2005, at 10:02 AM, Jerry Kliner wrote:

                                  > BTW, my reason for using the phrase "True Protestants"
                                  > is because to call anabaptists "protestant" is
                                  > somewhat erronous, because they have historically
                                  > sought separation, not protest and reform. But
                                  > protestants are generally lumped together by vitue of
                                  > being "non-Catholic or Orthodox." I wonder, though,
                                  > just how much those who are "Protestant" by virtue of
                                  > honest "protest" have in common with "protestants" who
                                  > are separtists.
                                • Christian McConnell
                                  ... This is an important point. From Cyprian right up to today, no Christian has actually professed a belief in re-baptism. They ve just disagreed on whether
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                                    --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Bennett" <bbennett@b...> wrote:

                                    > I think many would acknowledge that there is one baptism for the
                                    > forgiveness of sins, but Miers have never been truly baptized, so she
                                    > needed to be baptized, not rebaptized.

                                    This is an important point. From Cyprian right up to today, no
                                    Christian has actually professed a belief in re-baptism. They've just
                                    disagreed on whether the first one was baptism at all.

                                    Chris
                                  • Kenneth Doll
                                    Althought there was a Seventh Day Adventist (IIRC) example earlier that if someone fell into grave sin, they could be re-baptized. This would disagree with
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                                      Althought there was a Seventh Day Adventist (IIRC) example earlier that
                                      if someone fell into grave sin, they could be re-baptized. This would
                                      disagree with your assertion below.

                                      KD

                                      --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, "Christian McConnell"
                                      <cdmcconnell@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > This is an important point. From Cyprian right up to today, no
                                      > Christian has actually professed a belief in re-baptism. They've just
                                      > disagreed on whether the first one was baptism at all.
                                      >
                                      > Chris
                                    • Douglas Cowling
                                      ... Someone I know was baptised Orthodox as an infant and tried to be rebaptised when she became an Anglican -- the priest to his credit said no. She recently
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                                        On 10/6/05 12:07 PM, "Christian McConnell" <cdmcconnell@...> wrote:

                                        > This is an important point. From Cyprian right up to today, no
                                        > Christian has actually professed a belief in re-baptism. They've just
                                        > disagreed on whether the first one was baptism at all.


                                        Someone I know was baptised Orthodox as an infant and tried to be rebaptised
                                        when she became an Anglican -- the priest to his credit said no. She
                                        recently converted to Catholicism but I haven't had the nerve to ask her if
                                        she was finally repbaptized.


                                        Doug Cowling
                                        Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
                                        Church of the Messiah, Toronto
                                      • John M. Hudson
                                        If I may. A little light on the particular sect of which the potential associate justice apparently is a member. The quote (way back in the thread) said she
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                                          If I may.

                                          A little light on the particular sect of which the potential associate justice apparently is a member.

                                          The quote (way back in the thread) said she was (re) baptized in a "Christian Church." Because this was in Texas, I take this to mean one of the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ.

                                          These fiercely independent, "non-creedal" churches -- "No Creed But Christ, No Law But Love, No Book But the Bible" -- are numerous in Kentucky, Tenessee and Texas, especially. They once were of a piece with what's now the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ, but now are a very conservative separate group.

                                          One of their more well-known (and more charitable to others) pastors is Max Lucado, in San Antonio at their largest church. Many if not most in this sect believe Lucado is sold out and hell bound.

                                          Adult/Believer's baptism is an absolute necessity and necessary for salvation, and yet if has no meaning in terms of grace; it's required because Jesus said so. If you're not baptized in time, you go to hell. Too bad.

                                          These are people in EXTREME bondage to the law. They admit no creed and insist that the NT be followed in every (apparent) dictate. The NT fully supercedes the OT. They seem like Marcionites to me, except that their NT God doesn't seem much nicer than that bad OT God. ;-)

                                          The CC/C of C is characterized by two major branches -- the instumentalists (who allow instrumental accompaniment in worship) and noninstrumentalists, who say the NT says nothing about instruments, therefore no instruments in worship. You will find a piano in the fellowship hallm, though.

                                          The Lord's Supper is "celebrated" (if you want to call it that) every week, though very minimalistically.

                                          There are no pastors, no hierarchy, only elders (congregation leadership) and "ministers." They bristle at titles.

                                          They call themselves "restorationists," not protestants, because they believe they are the only ones who follow God's NT plan of salvation and "ecclesiology." They do not characterize themselves as a denomination but as a "NT restoration movement." Each church (congregation) isa complete manifestation of church qua church.

                                          The do not believe in the Article of Justification. They are synergists (not a word they'd use) and they believe salvation is by faith AND works.

                                          They are anti-charismatic and you will not find among them a so-called "baptism of the Holy Spirit" or any such things as tongues, prophesying, etc.

                                          If they knew or cared what Anabaptists were, they'd deny being Anabaptists. Their roots are in the 19th century Methodist revivals, Presbyterianism, the holiness movements, and prairie Baptists. Actually, the CC/C of C was an attempt at unionism among all these groups. It's a pretty American movement and lacks any of the mysticism of the Radical Reformers.

                                          All this said, they do vary a bit from church to church, just as Lutherans, etc., do, and not all are fundamentalist extremists. (Lucado is a good example of these folks in their better moments.)

                                          I'm assuming that this is the Supreme Court nominee's background.

                                          Hope this helps. My years in Tennessee being proselytized(often!) by these folks taught me a bit about them.

                                          joHn



                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Jerry Kliner <jerry_kliner@...>
                                          Sent: Oct 6, 2005 11:02 AM
                                          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Web site for "Are Lutherans Christian?"?

                                          BTW, my reason for using the phrase "True Protestants"
                                          is because to call anabaptists "protestant" is
                                          somewhat erronous, because they have historically
                                          sought separation, not protest and reform. But
                                          protestants are generally lumped together by vitue of
                                          being "non-Catholic or Orthodox." I wonder, though,
                                          just how much those who are "Protestant" by virtue of
                                          honest "protest" have in common with "protestants" who
                                          are separtists.

                                          It is interesting to observe that very few Lutherans
                                          really care about what the Reformation is all about or
                                          wish to see the reform of the Catholic Church. So, of
                                          course my phrase really isn't true anyway.

                                          Pax Christi;
                                          Pr. Jerry Kliner, STS

                                          John M. Hudson
                                          Troutville, Virginia
                                          --
                                          The law says, "Do this," and it is never done. Grace says, "Believe this," and it is done already.
                                          — Luther, Heidelburg Theses
                                        • Frank Senn
                                          I guess she stioped acknowledging that when she joined Valley View Christian Church. Of course, two baptisms is the minimal requirement for born again
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Oct 6, 2005
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                                            I guess she stioped acknowledging that when she joined Valley View Christian Church. Of course, two baptisms is the minimal requirement for "born again Christians" in the south. :)

                                            Frank C. Senn

                                            Brian Burch <burch@...> wrote:
                                            I wonder what happened to "And I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of
                                            sins?...

                                            It was written:

                                            >
                                            >She was baptized not long after that, at the Valley View Christian Church.
                                            >...
                                            >
                                            >Ms. Miers, born Roman Catholic, became an evangelical Christian ... '
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >Interesting how there seem to be some jurisdiction questions.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >Doug Cowling
                                            >Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
                                            >Church of the Messiah, Toronto
                                            >

                                            Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court?
                                            (James 2:6b, RSV)




                                            Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • MMonty
                                            ... From: Douglas Cowling To: Liturgy-Well-Done Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 4:23 AM Subject: Re:
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Oct 7, 2005
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                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Douglas Cowling" <dcowling@...>
                                              To: "Liturgy-Well-Done" <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 4:23 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Re-Baptism

                                              > Someone I know was baptised Orthodox as an infant and tried to be
                                              > rebaptised when she became an Anglican >-- the priest to his credit said
                                              > no. She recently converted to Catholicism but I haven't had the nerve to
                                              > >ask her if she was finally repbaptized.

                                              As long as she told the Priest that she had been baptized in the Orthodox
                                              Church there would have been no question that she had been validly baptized.
                                              We do not rebaptise people who have been validly baptized.
                                              If there is sound reason to doubt whether the baptism was valid or if the
                                              person did not know if they were baptized or not we would conditionally
                                              baptize. (not rebaptize)
                                              Peace...
                                              MaryM (the lay Aussie RC)
                                            • C. William Westerfield
                                              I was taught very early on in my faith upbringing that Anglicans are neither Roman Catholic nor Protestant. We are Anglican. We are a tradition that bridges
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Oct 7, 2005
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                                                I was taught very early on in my faith upbringing that Anglicans are neither
                                                Roman Catholic nor Protestant. We are Anglican. We are a tradition that
                                                bridges itself between the two. I still bristle when I see the Episcopal
                                                Church grouped into the Protestant Category. I am very proud of our
                                                Anglican heritage. When forced, though, to choose between Catholic and
                                                Protestant, I will always choose Catholic. Of course, my view of this is
                                                because of not only my liturgical style, but for the simple fact that I
                                                accept the doctrine of Transubstantiation.

                                                There are several recent books on Anglican identity and when I get my office
                                                unpacked, I will be happy to post a few titles...or I could just point
                                                readers towards titles published this year by Cowley Press.

                                                Pax Christi,

                                                Will Westerfield
                                                --
                                                C. William Westerfield
                                                will@...

                                                Vocation is "The place where our deep gladness meets the hunger of the
                                                world", Frederick Buechner

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                This brings to mind an Old Testament professor of mine at the Episcopal
                                                Theological School at Claremont, James Brenneman. He introduced himself to
                                                the class as being comfortable teaching in the Anglican context because, as
                                                a mennonite, he claims to be neither protestant nor catholic, while the
                                                Anglicans tend to insist they are both.
                                              • Scott Knitter
                                                I think we Anglicans are protestant in a technical sort of way but are part of Catholic Christianity. So are lots of others. Anyway, I d say we re both, not
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Oct 7, 2005
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                                                  I think we Anglicans are protestant in a technical sort of way but are
                                                  part of Catholic Christianity. So are lots of others. Anyway, I'd
                                                  say we're both, not neither. I think my rector would say we're
                                                  Catholic only and not at all Protestant, but there you are.

                                                  On 10/7/05, C. William Westerfield <will@...> wrote:

                                                  > I was taught very early on in my faith upbringing that Anglicans are neither
                                                  > Roman Catholic nor Protestant. We are Anglican. We are a tradition that
                                                  > bridges itself between the two. I still bristle when I see the Episcopal
                                                  > Church grouped into the Protestant Category. I am very proud of our
                                                  > Anglican heritage. When forced, though, to choose between Catholic and
                                                  > Protestant, I will always choose Catholic. Of course, my view of this is
                                                  > because of not only my liturgical style, but for the simple fact that I
                                                  > accept the doctrine of Transubstantiation.

                                                  --
                                                  Scott R. Knitter
                                                  Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
                                                  mailto:scottknitter@... - http://scottknitter.blog-city.com
                                                • Frank Senn
                                                  It s hard to use words according to their original historical context once they enter general parlance. The true Protestants in the sense of those who
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Oct 8, 2005
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                                                    It's hard to use words according to their original historical context once they enter general parlance. The true Protestants in the sense of those who protested the Edict of Speier in 1529 are Lutherans and Reformed. In 1529 there wasn't a Church of England, only the Church in England. The true Evangelicals are Lutherans. The term is used in the name of most Lutheran church bodies around the world. Those designated "evangelical" in Britain and America derive from the "evangelical wing" of the Church of England and include separate denominations such as Methodists and derivatives from the Wesleyan movement. But once those who are generally called Protestant and Evangelical no longer look like those who are theologically and liturgically Lutheran, Lutherans give up the use of both terms.

                                                    Frank C. Senn

                                                    "C. William Westerfield" <will@...> wrote:
                                                    I was taught very early on in my faith upbringing that Anglicans are neither
                                                    Roman Catholic nor Protestant. We are Anglican. We are a tradition that
                                                    bridges itself between the two. I still bristle when I see the Episcopal
                                                    Church grouped into the Protestant Category. I am very proud of our
                                                    Anglican heritage. When forced, though, to choose between Catholic and
                                                    Protestant, I will always choose Catholic. Of course, my view of this is
                                                    because of not only my liturgical style, but for the simple fact that I
                                                    accept the doctrine of Transubstantiation.

                                                    There are several recent books on Anglican identity and when I get my office
                                                    unpacked, I will be happy to post a few titles...or I could just point
                                                    readers towards titles published this year by Cowley Press.

                                                    Pax Christi,

                                                    Will Westerfield
                                                    --
                                                    C. William Westerfield
                                                    will@...

                                                    Vocation is "The place where our deep gladness meets the hunger of the
                                                    world", Frederick Buechner

                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    This brings to mind an Old Testament professor of mine at the Episcopal
                                                    Theological School at Claremont, James Brenneman. He introduced himself to
                                                    the class as being comfortable teaching in the Anglican context because, as
                                                    a mennonite, he claims to be neither protestant nor catholic, while the
                                                    Anglicans tend to insist they are both.




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                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Kenneth Doll
                                                    What is the Edict of Speier in 1529? I never heard of this one. KD ... The true Protestants in the sense of those who protested the Edict of Speier in 1529 are
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Oct 8, 2005
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                                                      What is the Edict of Speier in 1529?
                                                      I never heard of this one.
                                                      KD

                                                      --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Frank Senn <fcsenn@s...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      The true Protestants in the sense of those who protested the Edict of
                                                      Speier in 1529 are Lutherans and Reformed.
                                                      >
                                                      > Frank C. Senn
                                                    • Will Westerfield
                                                      I found this information by Google-ing the subject. This information is reprinted from History of the Christian Church, Volume VII. Modern Christianity. The
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Oct 8, 2005
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                                                        I found this information by Google-ing the subject.

                                                        This information is reprinted from "History of the Christian Church, Volume
                                                        VII. Modern Christianity. The German Reformation." By Phillip Schaff.
                                                        Reprinted (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc7.html) by the Christian
                                                        Classics Ethereal Library.

                                                        Pax Christi,

                                                        Will
                                                        --
                                                        C. William Westerfield
                                                        will@...
                                                        Confrater, Saint Gregory's Abbey (Anglican, Three Rivers, USA)
                                                        Member, Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church USA

                                                        Vocation is “The place where our deep gladness meets the hunger of the
                                                        world”, Frederick Buechner

                                                        OblateForum
                                                        www.oblateforum.org
                                                        "All guests should be welcomed as Christ" RB
                                                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                        § 115. The Second Diet of Speier, and the Protest of 1529.
                                                        Walch, XVI. 315 sqq. J. J. Müller: Historie von der evang. Stände
                                                        Protestation und Appellation wider den Reichsabschied zu Speier, 1529, Jena,
                                                        1705. Tittmann: Die Protestation der evang. Stände mit Hist. Erläuterungen,
                                                        Leipzig, 1829. A. Jung: Gesch. des Reichstags zu Speier, 1529, Leipzig,
                                                        1830. J. Ney (protest. pastor at Speier): Geschichte des Reichstags zu
                                                        Speier im Jahr 1529. Mit einem Anhange ungedruckter Akten und Briefe,
                                                        Hamburg, 1880. Ranke, III. 102–116. Janssen, III 130–146.

                                                        "Under these discouragements the second Diet of Speier was convened in
                                                        March, 1529, for action against the Turks, and against the further progress
                                                        of Protestantism. The Catholic dignitaries appeared in full force, and were
                                                        flushed with hopes of victory. The Protestants felt that "Christ was again
                                                        in the hands of Caiaphas and Pilate."943 The Diet neutralized the recess of
                                                        the preceding Diet of 1526; it virtually condemned (without, however,
                                                        annulling) the innovations made; and it forbade, on pain of the imperial
                                                        ban, any further reformation until the meeting of the council, which was now
                                                        positively promised for the next year by the Emperor and the Pope. The
                                                        Zwinglians and Anabaptists were excluded even from toleration. The latter
                                                        were to be punished by death. The Lutheran members of the Diet, under the
                                                        well-founded impression that the prohibition of any future reformation meant
                                                        death to the whole movement, entered in the legal form of an appeal for
                                                        themselves, their subjects and for all who now or shall hereafter believe in
                                                        the Word of God, the famous protest of April 25, 1529, against all those
                                                        measures of the Diet which were contrary to the Word of God, to their
                                                        conscience, and to the decision of the Diet of 1526, and appealed from the
                                                        decision of the majority to the Emperor, to a general or German council, and
                                                        impartial Christian judges.944 The document was signed by the Elector John
                                                        of Saxony, Margrave George of Brandenburg, Dukes Ernest and Francis of
                                                        Braunschweig-Lüneburg, Landgrave Philip of Hesse, Prince Wolfgang of Anhalt,
                                                        and the representatives of fourteen imperial cities, including Strassburg
                                                        and St. Gall of the Zwinglian persuasion. They were determined to defend
                                                        themselves against every act of violence of the majority. Their motto was
                                                        that of Elector John the Constant: "The Word of God abideth forever." They
                                                        deserve the name of confessors of the evangelical faith and the rights of
                                                        conscience in the face of imminent danger.945"

                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                        Of Kenneth Doll
                                                        Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2005 11:36
                                                        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: [liturgy-l] What is the Edict of Speier in 1529?

                                                        What is the Edict of Speier in 1529?
                                                        I never heard of this one.
                                                        KD
                                                      • Frank Senn
                                                        It rescinded the earlier decision of the Diet of Speier in 1526 that each ruler would determine the religion of his territory until such time as a general
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Oct 8, 2005
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                                                          It rescinded the earlier decision of the Diet of Speier in 1526 that each ruler would determine the religion of his territory until such time as a general council of the church could settle the theological controversies swirling in the Holy Roman Empire during the 1520s. The Edict of Speier produced a "protest" from the reforming princes and free cities that led to the presentation of the Reformation Confession at the Diet of Augsburg in 1530 before the Emperor Charles V. The Peace of Augsburg in 1555 restored the Edict of Speier from 1526 that "cuius regio ejus religio" ("to each region [ruler] its [his] religion"). This gave the Lutheran and Catholic Confessions equal standing within the Reichstag of the Holy Roman Empire.

                                                          Frank C. Senn

                                                          Kenneth Doll <dollpka@...> wrote:
                                                          What is the Edict of Speier in 1529?
                                                          I never heard of this one.
                                                          KD

                                                          --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, Frank Senn wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          The true Protestants in the sense of those who protested the Edict of
                                                          Speier in 1529 are Lutherans and Reformed.
                                                          >
                                                          > Frank C. Senn







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