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Re: [liturgy-l] Night Prayer (Compline)- your assistance please

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  • Amy Mark
    Hi! Thanks for the prayer! Actually, I m not at all familiar with the compline inthe breviary (I m not even sure I know what the breviary is...), and would
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 1, 2005
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      Hi!
      Thanks for the prayer! Actually, I'm not at all familiar with the compline inthe breviary (I'm not even sure I know what the breviary is...), and would love to learn more.

      You see, I come from an evangelical background, so there is a whole world of worship resources that I know nothing about. I have a deep passion for the worship life of the Church, so much so that I made it the primary focus of my seminary training. I suppose it is a phenomenon of the evangelical tradition that you have to actually choose a focus like that. But that's a whole other conversation.

      The point is, while I was in seminary, I conducted a study of worship in the Church, the main goal being just to find out how the Church worships today, and what role worship plays in the life of the congregation. So I visited different churches every week for two years, from different traditions and denominations, different ethnic backgrounds, rural and urban, large and small, and from varying economic situations. It was amazing. However, the sheer scope of my study meant that I was not able to glean as much in terms of specific worship practices and traditions. There is such a depth and breadth, such a richness, that I just couldn't reach in the time I had to work with. That's part of the reason I joined this group. I want to learn as much as possible. I believe that worship is our response to God, and as I learn how others respond to God, I learn more about who God is, what God has done, is doing, and will do.

      So, if you're willing, I'd love to learn as much as you're willing to share with me. I believe that one of the best ways to build unity in the Church is to learn the story of God as it has been played out in the lives of others, and to embrace that as part of our own story. After all, my story, and your story, the story of every church, and the stories of the Church, are all only part of God's story. I want to know as much of God's story as I possibly can.

      Thanks so much, oh, and I'm sorry this email got so long. I tend to be overly verbose... talk too much, write too much, you know.

      Grace and peace,
      Amy Mark



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Morgan
      Dear Amy: Welcome to this list. Hard to know where to start! The thing I have found most helpful in my own journey is that worshipping as part of a local
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 1, 2005
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        Dear Amy:
        Welcome to this list.
        Hard to know where to start!

        The thing I have found most helpful in my own journey is that worshipping as
        part of a local community over a period of time is basic. It trumps reading
        about liturgy and worship, since actually doing it, praying and singing week
        by week is the way Christians have always done it.

        One of the classics, a bit dated perhaps, is 'Worship' by Evelyn Underhill.
        Then there is 'The Shape of the Liturgy' by Gregory Dix. There does not
        seem to be a basic book about Eastern Orthodox worship that is readily
        available. There are many studies, historical and theological on the Divine
        Liturgy and other services but these all seem to be rather 'technical'. Fr.
        Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory wrote a book called 'An Introduction
        to Liturgical Theology', and several other books of that ilk. Perhaps I
        could work uu a biliography of things I have found helpful. Some of course
        are not easily available.

        From a Western pov you might want to peruse some of Phyllis Tickle's books
        such as Prayers for Springtime and The Divine Hours.

        And of course, I don't know if you attended any Eastern Orthodox services
        during your journey, but we have a wealth of things, more than I could begin
        to list here!

        Rdr. James Morgan
        Olympia, WA

        -----Original Message-----
        From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Amy Mark
        Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 12:34 PM
        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Night Prayer (Compline)- your assistance please

        Hi!
        Thanks for the prayer! Actually, I'm not at all familiar with the compline
        inthe breviary (I'm not even sure I know what the breviary is...), and would
        love to learn more.

        You see, I come from an evangelical background, so there is a whole world of
        worship resources that I know nothing about. I have a deep passion for the
        worship life of the Church, so much so that I made it the primary focus of
        my seminary training. I suppose it is a phenomenon of the evangelical
        tradition that you have to actually choose a focus like that. But that's a
        whole other conversation.

        The point is, while I was in seminary, I conducted a study of worship in the
        Church, the main goal being just to find out how the Church worships today,
        and what role worship plays in the life of the congregation. So I visited
        different churches every week for two years, from different traditions and
        denominations, different ethnic backgrounds, rural and urban, large and
        small, and from varying economic situations. It was amazing. However, the
        sheer scope of my study meant that I was not able to glean as much in terms
        of specific worship practices and traditions. There is such a depth and
        breadth, such a richness, that I just couldn't reach in the time I had to
        work with. That's part of the reason I joined this group. I want to learn
        as much as possible. I believe that worship is our response to God, and as
        I learn how others respond to God, I learn more about who God is, what God
        has done, is doing, and will do.

        So, if you're willing, I'd love to learn as much as you're willing to share
        with me. I believe that one of the best ways to build unity in the Church
        is to learn the story of God as it has been played out in the lives of
        others, and to embrace that as part of our own story. After all, my story,
        and your story, the story of every church, and the stories of the Church,
        are all only part of God's story. I want to know as much of God's story as
        I possibly can.

        Thanks so much, oh, and I'm sorry this email got so long. I tend to be
        overly verbose... talk too much, write too much, you know.

        Grace and peace,
        Amy Mark
      • John Dornheim
        I wonder why Schmemann is of blessed memory and Underhill and Dix are not. John Dornheim ... Faith is believing that one of two things will happen, she
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 1, 2005
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          I wonder why Schmemann is of "blessed memory" and Underhill and Dix are
          not.
          John Dornheim
          On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:29 PM, James Morgan wrote:

          > Dear Amy:
          > Welcome to this list.
          > Hard to know where to start!
          >
          > The thing I have found most helpful in my own journey is that
          > worshipping as
          > part of a local community over a period of time is basic. It trumps
          > reading
          > about liturgy and worship, since actually doing it, praying and
          > singing week
          > by week is the way Christians have always done it.
          >
          > One of the classics, a bit dated perhaps, is 'Worship' by Evelyn
          > Underhill.
          > Then there is 'The Shape of the Liturgy' by Gregory Dix. There does
          > not
          > seem to be a basic book about Eastern Orthodox worship that is readily
          > available. There are many studies, historical and theological on the
          > Divine
          > Liturgy and other services but these all seem to be rather
          > 'technical'. Fr.
          > Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory wrote a book called 'An
          > Introduction
          > to Liturgical Theology', and several other books of that ilk. Perhaps I
          > could work uu a biliography of things I have found helpful. Some of
          > course
          > are not easily available.
          >
          >> From a Western pov you might want to peruse some of Phyllis Tickle's
          >> books
          > such as Prayers for Springtime and The Divine Hours.
          >
          > And of course, I don't know if you attended any Eastern Orthodox
          > services
          > during your journey, but we have a wealth of things, more than I could
          > begin
          > to list here!
          >
          > Rdr. James Morgan
          > Olympia, WA
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf
          > Of Amy Mark
          > Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 12:34 PM
          > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Night Prayer (Compline)- your assistance
          > please
          >
          > Hi!
          > Thanks for the prayer! Actually, I'm not at all familiar with the
          > compline
          > inthe breviary (I'm not even sure I know what the breviary is...), and
          > would
          > love to learn more.
          >
          > You see, I come from an evangelical background, so there is a whole
          > world of
          > worship resources that I know nothing about. I have a deep passion
          > for the
          > worship life of the Church, so much so that I made it the primary
          > focus of
          > my seminary training. I suppose it is a phenomenon of the evangelical
          > tradition that you have to actually choose a focus like that. But
          > that's a
          > whole other conversation.
          >
          > The point is, while I was in seminary, I conducted a study of worship
          > in the
          > Church, the main goal being just to find out how the Church worships
          > today,
          > and what role worship plays in the life of the congregation. So I
          > visited
          > different churches every week for two years, from different traditions
          > and
          > denominations, different ethnic backgrounds, rural and urban, large and
          > small, and from varying economic situations. It was amazing.
          > However, the
          > sheer scope of my study meant that I was not able to glean as much in
          > terms
          > of specific worship practices and traditions. There is such a depth
          > and
          > breadth, such a richness, that I just couldn't reach in the time I had
          > to
          > work with. That's part of the reason I joined this group. I want to
          > learn
          > as much as possible. I believe that worship is our response to God,
          > and as
          > I learn how others respond to God, I learn more about who God is, what
          > God
          > has done, is doing, and will do.
          >
          > So, if you're willing, I'd love to learn as much as you're willing to
          > share
          > with me. I believe that one of the best ways to build unity in the
          > Church
          > is to learn the story of God as it has been played out in the lives of
          > others, and to embrace that as part of our own story. After all, my
          > story,
          > and your story, the story of every church, and the stories of the
          > Church,
          > are all only part of God's story. I want to know as much of God's
          > story as
          > I possibly can.
          >
          > Thanks so much, oh, and I'm sorry this email got so long. I tend to be
          > overly verbose... talk too much, write too much, you know.
          >
          > Grace and peace,
          > Amy Mark
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the
          > owners/moderators, please send an email to:
          > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          "Faith is believing that one of two things will happen," she said.
          "That there will be something solid for you to stand on -- Or that you
          will be taught to fly."
        • Robin Drake
          Hi Amy, Here s a link which, while it starts from a musical perspective, connects into both Episcopal/Anglican and Roman Catholic Compline information.
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 1, 2005
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            Hi Amy,
            Here's a link which, while it starts from a musical
            perspective, connects into both Episcopal/Anglican and
            Roman Catholic Compline information. Unfortunately the
            CofE links seem to not be working.

            http://www.complinechoir.org/othlink.html

            Feel free to ask any questions, any time - you'll get many
            answers (not always in agreement, but that is a learning
            experience, also).

            Robin Drake
            St. Anne's, Reston VA (ECUSA)
            (chorister and mostly lurker)

            --- Amy Mark <atreatre@...> wrote:

            > Hi!
            > Thanks for the prayer! Actually, I'm not at all familiar
            > with the compline inthe breviary (I'm not even sure I
            > know what the breviary is...), and would love to learn
            > more.
            >
            > You see, I come from an evangelical background, so there
            > is a whole world of worship resources that I know nothing
            > about. I have a deep passion for the worship life of the
            > Church, so much so that I made it the primary focus of my
            > seminary training. I suppose it is a phenomenon of the
            > evangelical tradition that you have to actually choose a
            > focus like that. But that's a whole other conversation.
            >
            > The point is, while I was in seminary, I conducted a
            > study of worship in the Church, the main goal being just
            > to find out how the Church worships today, and what role
            > worship plays in the life of the congregation. So I
            > visited different churches every week for two years, from
            > different traditions and denominations, different ethnic
            > backgrounds, rural and urban, large and small, and from
            > varying economic situations. It was amazing. However,
            > the sheer scope of my study meant that I was not able to
            > glean as much in terms of specific worship practices and
            > traditions. There is such a depth and breadth, such a
            > richness, that I just couldn't reach in the time I had to
            > work with. That's part of the reason I joined this
            > group. I want to learn as much as possible. I believe
            > that worship is our response to God, and as I learn how
            > others respond to God, I learn more about who God is,
            > what God has done, is doing, and will do.
            >
            > So, if you're willing, I'd love to learn as much as
            > you're willing to share with me. I believe that one of
            > the best ways to build unity in the Church is to learn
            > the story of God as it has been played out in the lives
            > of others, and to embrace that as part of our own story.
            > After all, my story, and your story, the story of every
            > church, and the stories of the Church, are all only part
            > of God's story. I want to know as much of God's story as
            > I possibly can.
            >
            > Thanks so much, oh, and I'm sorry this email got so long.
            > I tend to be overly verbose... talk too much, write too
            > much, you know.
            >
            > Grace and peace,
            > Amy Mark
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the
            > owners/moderators, please send an email to:
            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >




            __________________________________
            Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
            http://mail.yahoo.com
          • cfortunato@aol.com
            There is a book called Celtic Night Prayer which contains the form of prayer from a community of monastics in Northumbria. They have a different Compline
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 2, 2005
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              There is a book called "Celtic Night Prayer" which contains the form of
              prayer from a community of monastics in Northumbria. They have a different
              Compline for each night of the week. Here's a sample:

              ____________________

              * Indicates a change of reader.
              All say together the sections in bold type.
              R Indicates response by all.
              R In peace will I lie down, for it is You, O Lord,
              You alone who makes me to rest secure.
              Silently (make the sign of the Cross)
              The Sacred Three
              To save
              To shield
              To surround
              The hearth
              the home
              this night
              and every night.
              * Search me, O God, and know my heart.
              Test me and know my thoughts. R
              * See if there is any wicked way in me. R
              * And lead me in the way everlasting. R
              O Father, O Son, O Holy Spirit,
              forgive me my sins.
              O only – begotten Son of the heavenly Father,
              forgive.
              O God who is one,
              O God who is true,
              O God who is first,
              O God who is one substance,
              O God only mighty,
              in three Persons, truly merciful,
              forgive.
              * O God of life, this night,
              O darken not to me thy light. R
              * O God of life this night,
              close not Thy gladness to my sight. R
              * Keep Your people, Lord,
              in the arms of Your embrace.
              Shelter them under Your wings. R
              * Be their light in darkness.
              Be their hope in distress.
              Be their calm in anxiety. R
              * Be strength in their weakness. R
              * Be their comfort in pain. R
              * Be their song in the night. R
              * Be it on Your own beloved arm,
              O God of grace that I in peace shall awake. R
              Be the peace of the Spirit mine this night.
              Be the peace of the Son mine this night.
              Be the peace of the Father mine this night.
              The peace of all peace be mine this night
              In the name of the Father, (make the sign of the Cross )
              And of the Son,
              And of the Holy Spirit. Amen


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Dornheim
              It is a fine volume, a companion to Celtic Daily Prayer. Both are sadly out of print. John Dornheim ... Faith is believing that one of two things will
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 2, 2005
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                It is a fine volume, a companion to Celtic Daily Prayer. Both are sadly
                out of print.
                John Dornheim
                On Oct 2, 2005, at 9:35 AM, cfortunato@... wrote:

                > There is a book called "Celtic Night Prayer" which contains the form of
                > prayer from a community of monastics in Northumbria. They have a
                > different
                > Compline for each night of the week. Here's a sample:
                >
                > ____________________
                >
                > * Indicates a change of reader.
                > All say together the sections in bold type.
                > R Indicates response by all.
                > R In peace will I lie down, for it is You, O Lord,
                > You alone who makes me to rest secure.
                > Silently (make the sign of the Cross)
                > The Sacred Three
                > To save
                > To shield
                > To surround
                > The hearth
                > the home
                > this night
                > and every night.
                > * Search me, O God, and know my heart.
                > Test me and know my thoughts. R
                > * See if there is any wicked way in me. R
                > * And lead me in the way everlasting. R
                > O Father, O Son, O Holy Spirit,
                > forgive me my sins.
                > O only – begotten Son of the heavenly Father,
                > forgive.
                > O God who is one,
                > O God who is true,
                > O God who is first,
                > O God who is one substance,
                > O God only mighty,
                > in three Persons, truly merciful,
                > forgive.
                > * O God of life, this night,
                > O darken not to me thy light. R
                > * O God of life this night,
                > close not Thy gladness to my sight. R
                > * Keep Your people, Lord,
                > in the arms of Your embrace.
                > Shelter them under Your wings. R
                > * Be their light in darkness.
                > Be their hope in distress.
                > Be their calm in anxiety. R
                > * Be strength in their weakness. R
                > * Be their comfort in pain. R
                > * Be their song in the night. R
                > * Be it on Your own beloved arm,
                > O God of grace that I in peace shall awake. R
                > Be the peace of the Spirit mine this night.
                > Be the peace of the Son mine this night.
                > Be the peace of the Father mine this night.
                > The peace of all peace be mine this night
                > In the name of the Father, (make the sign of the Cross )
                > And of the Son,
                > And of the Holy Spirit. Amen
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the
                > owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                "Faith is believing that one of two things will happen," she said.
                "That there will be something solid for you to stand on -- Or that you
                will be taught to fly."
              • C. William Westerfield
                This is the form of Compline used at St. Gregory s Abbey (Three Rivers, Anglican Benedictine). I have put Rubrics for the service in parentheses: Pax Christi,
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 2, 2005
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                  This is the form of Compline used at St. Gregory's Abbey (Three Rivers,
                  Anglican Benedictine). I have put Rubrics for the service in parentheses:

                  Pax Christi,


                  --
                  C. William Westerfield
                  will@...
                  Confrater, Saint Gregory's Abbey (Anglican, Three Rivers, USA)
                  Member, Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church USA

                  Vocation is "The place where our deep gladness meets the hunger of the
                  world", Frederick Buechner
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  A Reading (Typically they read from the letters of John Cassian. It is done
                  in total darkness with the exception of a light for the reader).

                  Confraternity Prayers (The tabbed text is the responsorary):

                  Let us pray:
                  For those in pain or sorrow,
                  Mother of Jesus, pray.
                  For those on doubt or fear,
                  Mother of Jesus, pray.
                  For all bishops, priests and other ministers,
                  Mother of Jesus, pray.
                  For all monks, nuns, and other religious,
                  Mother of Jesus, pray
                  For all the members of our Confraternity,
                  Mother of Jesus, pray.
                  May all who honor you
                  Know the power of your prayer.
                  Holy Benedict, Father of monks,
                  Pray for us.
                  God of Hosts bring us back;
                  Let your face shine on us and we shall be saved.

                  Let us Pray. Stir up, O Lord, in your Church the Spirit which our blessed
                  father and abbot Benedict served; that we, being filled with the same
                  spirit, may learn to love what he loved, and put into practice what he
                  taught. Grant us, O Lord, we ask you, to be steadfast in the service of
                  your will, that your servants may grow in number and holiness; through
                  Christ our Lord. Amen.

                  A Silent examination of conscience

                  A corporate confession and absolution
                  I confess * (Pause) to Almighty God, to all the saints in heaven, and to
                  you, my brothers, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, and deed,
                  through my own fault. Therefore I ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, all the
                  angels and saints, and you, my brothers, to pray for me to the Lord, our
                  God.

                  May Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to life
                  everlasting. May the almighty and merciful Lord grant us pardon,
                  absolution, and remission of our sins. Amen.

                  V. O God, make speed to save us.
                  R. O Lord, make hast to help us.

                  (When saying the Gloria Patri, remain bowed from the head to waist, through
                  "...the Holy Spirit)

                  Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in
                  the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. Alleluia (Alleluia is
                  omitted in Lent),

                  Hymn
                  Now in the fading light of day
                  Maker of all to you we pray
                  That with your ever watchful love,
                  You guard and keep us from above.

                  Help and defend us through the night,
                  Danger and terror put to flight.
                  Never let evil have its way;
                  Preserve us for another day

                  Father Almighty, this be done,
                  Through Jesus Christ our Lord your Son,
                  Whom in the Spirit we adore,
                  Who reigns with you forever more.
                  Amen.

                  Psalms 4, 90, 133 (without Antiphon)

                  Chapter (Any one of these may be used. R. is Thanks be to God.)

                  I. Deut. 6:4-7
                  II. Rev. 22:4,5
                  III. I Thess. 5:9,10
                  IV. I Peter 5:8,9
                  V. Eph. 4:26,27
                  VI. I Thess. 5:23
                  VII. Jer. 14:9

                  V. Into your hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit (E.T. Alleluia)
                  R. It is you who will redeem me (E.T. Alleluia)

                  Let us Pray.

                  (There are 8 Prayers, most all of which are taken out of the American BCP).

                  V. Let us bless the Lord.
                  R. Thanks be to God.

                  Blessing
                  May the Amighty and merciful God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, bless us and
                  keep us. Amen.

                  (One of the following Antiphons to Our Lady, is sung, according to the
                  season. After the Antiphon and final suffrage, either "Asperges me" or
                  "Vidi aquam (for E.T)" is said. The Greater Silence then begins, which
                  lasts until after Mass on the following Day. I have included only this
                  season's Antiphon, in English. The community sings it in Latin. However
                  since all of the marks would be lost in plain text, I am only providing the
                  English. I have all of the Antiphons in a formatted Word document which I
                  would be happy to share with anyone who desires it).

                  After Pentecost, until Advent
                  Hail, O Queen, Mother of Mercy!
                  Life, sweetness and hope to us: we greet you!
                  To you we cry, exiled children of Even.
                  To you we sigh, mourning and weeping in the vale of tears.
                  Therefore, indeed, O our Advocate,
                  Turn those merciful eyes of yours on us.
                  And Jesus,
                  The blessed fruit of your womb,
                  Reveal to us, after this exile,
                  O gentle, O tender,
                  O sweet Virgin Mary!

                  The Lord Almighty grant us a peaceful night and a perfect end. Amen.

                  (During the saying of the Asperges me, the Abbot (or Prior in his absence)
                  sprinkles the Community, and then the visitors, with holy water with the
                  silver asperges.

                  Ant. Purify me, O Lord * with hyssop, then I shall be clean; O wash me; I
                  shall be whiter than snow.

                  Ps. Have mercy on me, God, in your kindness. In your compassion blot out
                  my offense. Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
                  As it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forver. Amen.

                  Ant. Purify me, O Lord...

                  (All leave the sanctuary in silence)
                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                • +Magdalen/Thomas
                  There is a fine ecumenical book on daily prayer: Venite, A Book of Daily Prayer , by Robert Benson, Penguin Putman, NY, 2000, ISBN 1-58542-013-1 (Divine
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 2, 2005
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                    There is a fine ecumenical book on daily prayer: "Venite, A Book of Daily
                    Prayer", by Robert Benson, Penguin Putman, NY, 2000, ISBN 1-58542-013-1
                    (Divine office-Texts); I have used this book with Lay multi-cultural groups
                    in the Philippines. [If illegal copying of this book is any indication, it
                    is very popular with our church groups in the 'hinterland's.] +Thomas
                    _____________________________________________
                    _____________________________________________
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "John Dornheim" <john19@...>
                    To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 10:02 PM
                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Night Prayer (Compline)- your assistance please


                    It is a fine volume, a companion to Celtic Daily Prayer. Both are sadly
                    out of print.
                    John Dornheim
                    On Oct 2, 2005, at 9:35 AM, cfortunato@... wrote:

                    > There is a book called "Celtic Night Prayer" which contains the form of
                    > prayer from a community of monastics in Northumbria. They have a
                    > different
                    > Compline for each night of the week. Here's a sample:
                  • cfortunato@aol.com
                    It is a fine volume, a companion to Celtic Daily Prayer. Both are sadly out of print. John Dornheimn I did not know that. Too bad. They are nice. If anyone
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 2, 2005
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                      It is a fine volume, a companion to Celtic Daily Prayer. Both are sadly
                      out of print.
                      John Dornheimn

                      I did not know that. Too bad. They are nice. If anyone is interested, I
                      believe I have the seven Compline Prayers from Celtic Night Prayer on this
                      computer of mine somewhere.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Lewis H Whitaker
                      Now I ll have to go dig my copy out...it s around here somewhere. I do remember it being well done. LHW ... From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 2, 2005
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                        Now I'll have to go dig my copy out...it's around here somewhere. I do
                        remember it being well done.

                        LHW


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                        Behalf Of cfortunato@...
                        Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 6:56 PM
                        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [liturgy-l] Night Prayer (Compline)- your assistance please


                        It is a fine volume, a companion to Celtic Daily Prayer. Both are sadly
                        out of print.
                        John Dornheimn

                        I did not know that. Too bad. They are nice. If anyone is interested,
                        I
                        believe I have the seven Compline Prayers from Celtic Night Prayer on
                        this
                        computer of mine somewhere.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the
                        owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                        liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                      • Hugh Graham
                        A combined volume of the daily prayer and the compline can be found for sale on www.amazon.co.uk Hugh Graham ... From: Lewis H Whitaker
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 3, 2005
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                          A combined volume of the daily prayer and the compline can be found for sale
                          on www.amazon.co.uk

                          Hugh Graham


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Lewis H Whitaker" <aspern@...>
                          To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 1:16 AM
                          Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Night Prayer (Compline)- your assistance please


                          > Now I'll have to go dig my copy out...it's around here somewhere. I do
                          > remember it being well done.
                          >
                          > LHW
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com]On
                          > Behalf Of cfortunato@...
                          > Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 6:56 PM
                          > To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [liturgy-l] Night Prayer (Compline)- your assistance please
                          >
                          >
                          > It is a fine volume, a companion to Celtic Daily Prayer. Both are sadly
                          > out of print.
                          > John Dornheimn
                          >
                          > I did not know that. Too bad. They are nice. If anyone is interested,
                          > I
                          > believe I have the seven Compline Prayers from Celtic Night Prayer on
                          > this
                          > computer of mine somewhere.
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the
                          > owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                          > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                          write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                          > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          >
                          >
                        • Kenneth Doll
                          Hello John, I suspect the reason is that we Orthodox Christians would not use this phrase for _any_ departed non-Orthodox Christians. I don t think that this
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 3, 2005
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                            Hello John,

                            I suspect the reason is that we Orthodox Christians would not use
                            this phrase for _any_ departed non-Orthodox Christians. I don't
                            think that this is anything intended directly at Dix or Underhill.

                            We pray publically "memory eternal" for our departed brothers and
                            sisters, but only privately for those outside.

                            This does not answer the question "why", but that might take us
                            outside the purpose of the list.

                            Best regards,
                            Kenneth Doll

                            --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, John Dornheim <john19@u...> wrote:
                            > I wonder why Schmemann is of "blessed memory" and Underhill and Dix
                            > are not.
                            > John Dornheim
                            > On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:29 PM, James Morgan wrote:
                            >
                            > > One of the classics, a bit dated perhaps, is 'Worship' by
                            > > Evelyn Underhill.

                            > > Then there is 'The Shape of the Liturgy' by Gregory Dix.

                            > > Fr. Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory wrote a book called
                            > > 'An Introduction to Liturgical Theology', and several
                            > > other books of that ilk.
                            > >
                            > > Rdr. James Morgan
                            > > Olympia, WA
                          • john19@unidial.com
                            Thanks for your response. I have seen the term used by non-Orthodox when referring to other non-Orthodox. I am unsure as to the need to distinguish in this
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 3, 2005
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                              Thanks for your response. I have seen the term used by non-Orthodox
                              when referring to other non-Orthodox. I am unsure as to the need to
                              distinguish in this forum.
                              John Dornheim
                              >Hello John,
                              >
                              >I suspect the reason is that we Orthodox Christians would not use
                              >this phrase for _any_ departed non-Orthodox Christians. I don't
                              >think that this is anything intended directly at Dix or Underhill.
                              >
                              >We pray publically "memory eternal" for our departed brothers and
                              >sisters, but only privately for those outside.
                              >
                              >This does not answer the question "why", but that might take us
                              >outside the purpose of the list.
                              >
                              >Best regards,
                              >Kenneth Doll
                              >
                              >--- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, John Dornheim <john19@u...>
                              wrote:
                              >> I wonder why Schmemann is of "blessed memory" and Underhill
                              and Dix
                              >> are not.
                              >> John Dornheim
                              >> On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:29 PM, James Morgan wrote:
                              >>
                              >> > One of the classics, a bit dated perhaps, is 'Worship' by
                              >> > Evelyn Underhill.
                              >
                              >> > Then there is 'The Shape of the Liturgy' by Gregory Dix.
                              >
                              >> > Fr. Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory wrote a book
                              called
                              >> > 'An Introduction to Liturgical Theology', and several
                              >> > other books of that ilk.
                              >> >
                              >> > Rdr. James Morgan
                              >> > Olympia, WA
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/
                              To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                              >liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Kenneth Doll
                              Hello John, As to the need to distinguish on this forum, I would expect that it is probably either unintentional or simply natural. To a departed Orthodox
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 3, 2005
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                                Hello John,

                                As to the need to distinguish on this forum, I would expect that it
                                is probably either unintentional or simply natural.

                                To a departed Orthodox Christian, we naturally apply this
                                designation, especially if we knew them or their writings in this
                                case. Perhaps Rdr. James even personally knew Fr. Alexander. To
                                someone else, it might not necessarily apply.

                                Interestingly, even an appellation such as Father for a priest (or
                                even a deacon) is not always used if there is not some relationship.
                                They might be designated Priest John or Deacon Basil instead. We
                                also use the term Master/Despota/Vladyka to refer to our bishops.

                                Perhaps in this forum it would have been better to leave it off all
                                together???? It does give a sense of how we regards our departed
                                brothers and sisters though.

                                With best regards,
                                Kenneth Doll

                                --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, john19@u... wrote:
                                > Thanks for your response. I have seen the term used by non-Orthodox
                                > when referring to other non-Orthodox. I am unsure as to the need
                                to
                                > distinguish in this forum.
                                > John Dornheim
                                > >Hello John,
                                > >
                                > >I suspect the reason is that we Orthodox Christians would not use
                                > >this phrase for _any_ departed non-Orthodox Christians. I don't
                                > >think that this is anything intended directly at Dix or Underhill.
                                > >
                                > >We pray publically "memory eternal" for our departed brothers and
                                > >sisters, but only privately for those outside.
                                > >
                                > >This does not answer the question "why", but that might take us
                                > >outside the purpose of the list.
                                > >
                                > >Best regards,
                                > >Kenneth Doll
                                > >
                                > >--- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, John Dornheim <john19@u...>
                                > wrote:
                                > >> I wonder why Schmemann is of "blessed memory" and Underhill
                                > and Dix
                                > >> are not.
                                > >> John Dornheim
                                > >> On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:29 PM, James Morgan wrote:
                                > >>
                                > >> > One of the classics, a bit dated perhaps, is 'Worship' by
                                > >> > Evelyn Underhill.
                                > >
                                > >> > Then there is 'The Shape of the Liturgy' by Gregory Dix.
                                > >
                                > >> > Fr. Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory wrote a book
                                > called
                                > >> > 'An Introduction to Liturgical Theology', and several
                                > >> > other books of that ilk.
                                > >> >
                                > >> > Rdr. James Morgan
                                > >> > Olympia, WA
                              • mbennett1944@comcast.net
                                One thing this lurker appreciates about liturgy-l is that subscribers can unapologetically use language as those of their tradition use it. From time-to-time
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 3, 2005
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                                  One thing this lurker appreciates about liturgy-l is that subscribers can unapologetically use language as those of their tradition use it. From time-to-time one is asked "What do you mean by that?" and the answer provides new, interesting information for other subscribers, which is one reason for being here. When somebody else finds nothing new or interesting in the answer, (s)he is free to dispose of the answer in the usual manner.

                                  Further, I found this answer particularly timely and interesting, having recently observed the 7th anniversary of my protestant father's death, having never fully understood the Orthodox status of the prayers that the Orthodox priest had offered publicly at the request of my Orthodox brother.

                                  Mike Bennett


                                  -----Original Message-----

                                  From: "Kenneth Doll" <dollpka@...>
                                  Subj: [liturgy-l] Re: "blessed memory"
                                  Date: Mon Oct 3, 2005 2:31 pm
                                  Size: 2K
                                  To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

                                  Hello John,

                                  As to the need to distinguish on this forum, I would expect that it
                                  is probably either unintentional or simply natural.

                                  To a departed Orthodox Christian, we naturally apply this
                                  designation, especially if we knew them or their writings in this
                                  case. Perhaps Rdr. James even personally knew Fr. Alexander. To
                                  someone else, it might not necessarily apply.

                                  Interestingly, even an appellation such as Father for a priest (or
                                  even a deacon) is not always used if there is not some relationship.
                                  They might be designated Priest John or Deacon Basil instead. We
                                  also use the term Master/Despota/Vladyka to refer to our bishops.

                                  Perhaps in this forum it would have been better to leave it off all
                                  together???? It does give a sense of how we regards our departed
                                  brothers and sisters though.

                                  With best regards,
                                  Kenneth Doll

                                  --- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, john19@u... wrote:
                                  > Thanks for your response. I have seen the term used by non-Orthodox
                                  > when referring to other non-Orthodox. I am unsure as to the need
                                  to
                                  > distinguish in this forum.
                                  > John Dornheim
                                  > >Hello John,
                                  > >
                                  > >I suspect the reason is that we Orthodox Christians would not use
                                  > >this phrase for _any_ departed non-Orthodox Christians. I don't
                                  > >think that this is anything intended directly at Dix or Underhill.
                                  > >
                                  > >We pray publically "memory eternal" for our departed brothers and
                                  > >sisters, but only privately for those outside.
                                  > >
                                  > >This does not answer the question "why", but that might take us
                                  > >outside the purpose of the list.
                                  > >
                                  > >Best regards,
                                  > >Kenneth Doll
                                  > >
                                  > >--- In liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com, John Dornheim <john19@u...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >> I wonder why Schmemann is of "blessed memory" and Underhill
                                  > and Dix
                                  > >> are not.
                                  > >> John Dornheim
                                  > >> On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:29 PM, James Morgan wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >> > One of the classics, a bit dated perhaps, is 'Worship' by
                                  > >> > Evelyn Underhill.
                                  > >
                                  > >> > Then there is 'The Shape of the Liturgy' by Gregory Dix.
                                  > >
                                  > >> > Fr. Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory wrote a book
                                  > called
                                  > >> > 'An Introduction to Liturgical Theology', and several
                                  > >> > other books of that ilk.
                                  > >> >
                                  > >> > Rdr. James Morgan
                                  > >> > Olympia, WA




                                  Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
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                                • asteresplanetai
                                  ... I don t personally see anything wrong with saying of blessed memory of anyone; we bless God over the memory of each person he created, yes? I rather
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 3, 2005
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                                    +++


                                    > From: "Kenneth Doll" <dollpka@...>
                                    > Subj: [liturgy-l] Re: "blessed memory"

                                    > As to the need to distinguish on this forum, I would expect that it
                                    > is probably either unintentional or simply natural.
                                    >
                                    > To a departed Orthodox Christian, we naturally apply this
                                    > designation, especially if we knew them or their writings in this
                                    > case. Perhaps Rdr. James even personally knew Fr. Alexander. To
                                    > someone else, it might not necessarily apply.

                                    > From: <mbennett1944@...>
                                    > Subject: Re: Re: "blessed memory"
                                    >
                                    > One thing this lurker appreciates about liturgy-l is that subscribers
                                    > can unapologetically use language as those of their tradition use it.
                                    > From time-to-time one is asked "What do you mean by that?" and the
                                    > answer provides new, interesting information for other subscribers,
                                    > which is one reason for being here. When somebody else finds nothing
                                    > new or interesting in the answer, (s)he is free to dispose of the
                                    > answer in the usual manner.

                                    I don't personally see anything wrong with saying 'of blessed memory'
                                    of anyone; we bless God over the memory of each person he created, yes?

                                    I rather suspect the distinction in question was simply one of habit.
                                    Some of us actually knew Fr Alexander, or know him warmly through his
                                    writings and through the still rather warm memories of him which are
                                    preserved in our community; whereas Dom Gregory Dix and others not only
                                    are more distant from all of us in time, but also distant in space
                                    (England) and community. Yet it seems unlikely that we would say 'of
                                    blessed memory' even of an orthodox person who died in 1810; i mean
                                    like, who has any memory of them at all, by this point? But you could,
                                    and there wouldn't be anything wrong with it-- it would just be a bit
                                    odd.

                                    > Further, I found this answer particularly timely and interesting,
                                    > having recently observed the 7th anniversary of my protestant father's
                                    > death, having never fully understood the Orthodox status of the
                                    > prayers that the Orthodox priest had offered publicly at the request
                                    > of my Orthodox brother.

                                    Regarding Orthodox funeral services for non-Orthodox persons, naturally
                                    we make a distinction. It is not that we cannot pray for them (we can
                                    and should!), but the service itself is entirely geared to Orthodox
                                    Christians who have died. So it would be inappropriate to pray for
                                    someone as an "Orthodox Christian" who had not been and perhaps would
                                    not have wanted to be one! However, in the priest's service book, there
                                    is a memorial rite ("Trisagion") for non-Orthodox Christians. It does
                                    not include the litanies and hymns which would be appropriate only for
                                    an Orthodox believer, but it does include the usual Psalms and hymns
                                    which are general and not specifically aimed towards Orthodox
                                    Christians.

                                    At the very bottom of the very poorly-formatted page at
                                    http://www.orthodox.net/services/, you can find a copy of this "Requiem
                                    for Non-Orthodox", if interested.

                                    Regards,

                                    John Burnett




                                    This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and
                                    privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient,
                                    please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this
                                    e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this
                                    information by a person other than the intended recipient is
                                    unauthorized and may be illegal.
                                  • mbennett1944@comcast.net
                                    John: Thanks for the reply, and I will consult the poorly formatted page you offered, for further insight. Mike Bennett ... From: asteresplanetai
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Oct 4, 2005
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                                      John:

                                      Thanks for the reply, and I will consult the "poorly formatted page" you offered, for further insight.

                                      Mike Bennett


                                      -----Original Message-----

                                      From: asteresplanetai <asteresplanetai@...>
                                      Subj: Re: [liturgy-l] "blessed memory"
                                      Date: Tue Oct 4, 2005 1:08 am
                                      Size: 3K
                                      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com

                                      +++


                                      > From: "Kenneth Doll" <dollpka@...>
                                      > Subj: [liturgy-l] Re: "blessed memory"

                                      > As to the need to distinguish on this forum, I would expect that it
                                      > is probably either unintentional or simply natural.
                                      >
                                      > To a departed Orthodox Christian, we naturally apply this
                                      > designation, especially if we knew them or their writings in this
                                      > case. Perhaps Rdr. James even personally knew Fr. Alexander. To
                                      > someone else, it might not necessarily apply.

                                      > From: <mbennett1944@...>
                                      > Subject: Re: Re: "blessed memory"
                                      >
                                      > One thing this lurker appreciates about liturgy-l is that subscribers
                                      > can unapologetically use language as those of their tradition use it.
                                      > From time-to-time one is asked "What do you mean by that?" and the
                                      > answer provides new, interesting information for other subscribers,
                                      > which is one reason for being here. When somebody else finds nothing
                                      > new or interesting in the answer, (s)he is free to dispose of the
                                      > answer in the usual manner.

                                      I don't personally see anything wrong with saying 'of blessed memory'
                                      of anyone; we bless God over the memory of each person he created, yes?

                                      I rather suspect the distinction in question was simply one of habit.
                                      Some of us actually knew Fr Alexander, or know him warmly through his
                                      writings and through the still rather warm memories of him which are
                                      preserved in our community; whereas Dom Gregory Dix and others not only
                                      are more distant from all of us in time, but also distant in space
                                      (England) and community. Yet it seems unlikely that we would say 'of
                                      blessed memory' even of an orthodox person who died in 1810; i mean
                                      like, who has any memory of them at all, by this point? But you could,
                                      and there wouldn't be anything wrong with it-- it would just be a bit
                                      odd.

                                      > Further, I found this answer particularly timely and interesting,
                                      > having recently observed the 7th anniversary of my protestant father's
                                      > death, having never fully understood the Orthodox status of the
                                      > prayers that the Orthodox priest had offered publicly at the request
                                      > of my Orthodox brother.

                                      Regarding Orthodox funeral services for non-Orthodox persons, naturally
                                      we make a distinction. It is not that we cannot pray for them (we can
                                      and should!), but the service itself is entirely geared to Orthodox
                                      Christians who have died. So it would be inappropriate to pray for
                                      someone as an "Orthodox Christian" who had not been and perhaps would
                                      not have wanted to be one! However, in the priest's service book, there
                                      is a memorial rite ("Trisagion") for non-Orthodox Christians. It does
                                      not include the litanies and hymns which would be appropriate only for
                                      an Orthodox believer, but it does include the usual Psalms and hymns
                                      which are general and not specifically aimed towards Orthodox
                                      Christians.

                                      At the very bottom of the very poorly-formatted page at
                                      http://www.orthodox.net/services/, you can find a copy of this "Requiem
                                      for Non-Orthodox", if interested.

                                      Regards,

                                      John Burnett




                                      This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and
                                      privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient,
                                      please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this
                                      e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this
                                      information by a person other than the intended recipient is
                                      unauthorized and may be illegal.


                                      Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
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                                    • mbennett1944@comcast.net
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Oct 4, 2005
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                                        <At the very bottom of the very poorly-formatted page at
                                        http://www.orthodox.net/services/, you can find a copy of this "Requiem
                                        for Non-Orthodox", if interested.

                                        Regards,

                                        John Burnett>

                                        Actually, I don't find it poorly formatted. It gets you where you want to go in a very well organized fashion. I'll bet this was the service use, or one much like it, as the church is Carpatho-Russian Orthodox. I'll confirm with my brother. I've never seen the service, and had only been told that it was prayed. Thank you.

                                        Mike Bennett
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