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RE: [liturgy-l] priest or minister?

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  • Bliese, Mark
    Sharon, I surmise that to the TV networks, priests are Roman Catholic and ministers are everyone else. Mark J. Bliese Saint Louis, Mo. ... From:
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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      Sharon,

      I surmise that to the TV networks, priests are Roman Catholic and ministers are
      everyone else.

      Mark J. Bliese
      Saint Louis, Mo.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      sharon brown
      Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:27 AM
      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [liturgy-l] priest or minister?


      why is a priest called a priest and a minister a minister and are the terms
      interchangeable?

      i ask because i saw a tv interview last night with jack danforth, retired
      senator from missouri, and he was referred to as an episcopal minister. that
      rubbed against my grain as i was taught the episcopal church has priests.

      am i right or wrong? does it matter?

      thanks,

      sharon
      a.k.a.
      sarge

      "disability is not the same as inability!"




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    • dlewisaao@aol.com
      In a message dated 8/3/2005 10:48:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bliesem@csl.edu writes: why is a priest called a priest and a minister a minister and are the
      Message 2 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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        In a message dated 8/3/2005 10:48:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        bliesem@... writes:
        why is a priest called a priest and a minister a minister and are the terms
        interchangeable?

        i ask because i saw a tv interview last night with jack danforth, retired
        senator from missouri, and he was referred to as an episcopal minister. that
        rubbed against my grain as i was taught the episcopal church has priests.



        Some Low Church Episcopalians would refer to priests as ministers.

        David Lewis



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jerry Kliner
        ... To throw a wrench into this discussion, some (Lutheran) congregations have taken to calling the congregation ministers (i.e. Pastor-- Joan Smith
        Message 3 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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          >why is a priest called a priest and a minister a
          > minister and are the terms interchangeable?

          To throw a wrench into this discussion, some
          (Lutheran) congregations have taken to calling the
          congregation "ministers" (i.e. "Pastor-- Joan Smith
          Ministers-- the people"). I suppose this is because
          Luther taught at length on the "Priesthood of all
          believers," but it has also struck me as a form of
          anti-authority-ism. Interestingly, I have not seen a
          congregation that lists "Priests-- the people" which
          would seem to be more authentic to Luther. On one
          hand I guess you could make the argument that "priest"
          and "minister" are interchangeable, on the other hand
          it probably also illuminates the continuing
          squeamishness many Lutherans (and other protestants?)
          feel about being "confused" with Roman Catholics...

          On a practical note, there is a functional distinction
          between "priest" and "minister." It is akin to the
          distinction between "priest" and "pastor."
          Liturgically speaking, a "minister" is one who is
          serving in a discrete role in worship. A priest may
          be a minister if they are serving the liturgy, but
          would remain a priest (but not a minister) even if
          they are in the congregation. Just like the term
          "pastor" formally designates a clergy-person who has a
          congregation/parish under his/her care, but that
          person would would remain a "priest" if serving in an
          academic, or religious, or diocese (or Synod) post.


          Many protestants, unfortunately, do not grasp such
          subtlety and throw the terms "Priest," "Pastor," and
          "Minister" (and "Reverend" and "Preacher" for that
          matter)around rather carelessly.

          Pax Christi;
          Pr. Jerry Kliner

          BTW. My understanding is that the "official"
          understanding of the Churches of the Anglican
          communion is that their clergy are called "Priests."
          But if they are anything like ELCA Lutherans, there is
          likely great (ahem!) diversity in their practice.




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        • dcowling@sympatico.ca
          ... Many protestants, unfortunately, do not grasp such ... I have never understood why pastor does not achieve wider use, especially among Anglicans. It is
          Message 4 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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            >
            > From: Jerry Kliner <jerry_kliner@...>

            > Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] priest or minister?

            Many protestants, unfortunately, do not grasp such
            > subtlety and throw the terms "Priest," "Pastor," and
            > "Minister" (and "Reverend" and "Preacher" for that
            > matter)around rather carelessly.
            >
            > Pax Christi;
            > Pr. Jerry Kliner
            >
            I have never understood why "pastor" does not achieve wider use,
            especially among Anglicans. It is a scriptural title and has the
            advantage of already being in use in the Catholic and most Protestant
            churches. Hard to get the anglican to give up all those stupid
            meaningless titles like "vicar" and "rector"

            Doug Cowling
            Church of the Messiah, Toronto
          • dlewisaao@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/3/2005 11:33:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dcowling@sympatico.ca writes: I have never understood why pastor does not achieve wider
            Message 5 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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              In a message dated 8/3/2005 11:33:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              dcowling@... writes:

              I have never understood why "pastor" does not achieve wider use,
              especially among Anglicans. It is a scriptural title and has the
              advantage of already being in use in the Catholic and most Protestant
              churches. Hard to get the anglican to give up all those stupid
              meaningless titles like "vicar" and "rector"



              There are Episcopal churches out there, particularly those of an
              Evangelical/Charismatic flavor, that use pastor in lieu of vicar or rector.

              David Lewis



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Scott Knitter
              Also some Episcopal parishes with a female rector; the rector sometimes prefers to be called Pastor to resolve discomforts with being addressed as Mother. ...
              Message 6 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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                Also some Episcopal parishes with a female rector; the rector
                sometimes prefers to be called Pastor to resolve discomforts with
                being addressed as Mother.

                On 03/08/05, dlewisaao@... <dlewisaao@...> wrote:
                >
                > In a message dated 8/3/2005 11:33:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                > dcowling@... writes:
                >
                > I have never understood why "pastor" does not achieve wider use,
                > especially among Anglicans. It is a scriptural title and has the
                > advantage of already being in use in the Catholic and most Protestant
                > churches. Hard to get the anglican to give up all those stupid
                > meaningless titles like "vicar" and "rector"
                >
                >
                >
                > There are Episcopal churches out there, particularly those of an
                > Evangelical/Charismatic flavor, that use pastor in lieu of vicar or rector.
                >
                > David Lewis
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                Scott R. Knitter
                Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
                mailto:scottknitter@... - http://scottknitter.blog-city.com
              • dcowling@sympatico.ca
                ... A woman priest in Toronto asked to be called Mother. Some found it unfortunate that her name was Tucker. Doug Cowling Director of Music & Litugical Arts
                Message 7 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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                  >
                  > From: Scott Knitter <scottknitter@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] priest or minister?
                  >
                  > Also some Episcopal parishes with a female rector; the rector
                  > sometimes prefers to be called Pastor to resolve discomforts with
                  > being addressed as Mother.
                  >
                  A woman priest in Toronto asked to be called Mother. Some found it
                  unfortunate that her name was Tucker.

                  Doug Cowling
                  Director of Music & Litugical Arts
                  Church of the Messiah, Toronto
                • Jerry Kliner
                  The priest in Hurricane goes by the title Pastor for that very reason... Besides, in Roman Catholic usage, isn t the title Mother a lay title? Seems like
                  Message 8 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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                    The priest in Hurricane goes by the title "Pastor" for
                    that very reason...

                    Besides, in Roman Catholic usage, isn't the title
                    "Mother" a lay title? Seems like it is a harder title
                    to adapt than "Father" which was a clerical title
                    already...

                    Pax Christi;
                    Pr. Jerry Kliner

                    --- Scott Knitter wrote:
                    "Also some Episcopal parishes with a female rector;
                    the rector sometimes prefers to be called Pastor to
                    resolve discomforts with being addressed as Mother."


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                  • Jerry Kliner
                    A truly unfortunate combination of title and name! :) Pr. Jerry Kliner Doug wrote: A woman priest in Toronto asked to be called Mother. Some found it
                    Message 9 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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                      A truly unfortunate combination of title and name! :)

                      Pr. Jerry Kliner

                      Doug wrote:
                      "A woman priest in Toronto asked to be called Mother.
                      Some found it unfortunate that her name was Tucker."




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                    • The Rev'd Kendall Reimer
                      Well you all may find this weird but this Mother prefers to be called Father. I explain to people it is not me but the office they are addressing Kendall
                      Message 10 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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                        Well you all may find this weird but this "Mother" prefers to be called
                        Father." I explain to people it is not me but the office they are addressing



                        Kendall Reimer+

                        -------Original Message-------

                        From: Jerry Kliner
                        Date: 08/03/05 13:04:48
                        To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] priest or minister?

                        The priest in Hurricane goes by the title "Pastor" for
                        that very reason...

                        Besides, in Roman Catholic usage, isn't the title
                        "Mother" a lay title? Seems like it is a harder title
                        to adapt than "Father" which was a clerical title
                        already...

                        Pax Christi;
                        Pr. Jerry Kliner

                        --- Scott Knitter wrote:
                        "Also some Episcopal parishes with a female rector;
                        the rector sometimes prefers to be called Pastor to
                        resolve discomforts with being addressed as Mother."


                        __________________________________________________
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                      • Jerry Kliner
                        Not weird at all... Actually I think that s where Scott was headed with his Star Trek citation. I think that there s good, Pauline theology behind a single
                        Message 11 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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                          Not weird at all... Actually I think that's where
                          Scott was headed with his Star Trek citation.

                          I think that there's good, Pauline theology behind a
                          single title for clergy (In Christ there is no east or
                          west...). The question then becomes what do we do
                          with the implicit gendered language of both "Father"
                          and "Mother." (Notice that the subject line of the
                          related thread became "call no man mother...")
                          "Pastor," "Minister," and "Reverend" all avoid the
                          issue because they are (in form) gender neutral. Even
                          "Priest," were we to unshackle the term from how it
                          was used could be used in a gender neutral form (even
                          as the term "Aviator" now is used for both women and
                          men instead of "Aviator/Aviatrix").

                          Fr. Reimer works just fine. I just wonder how many
                          people will accept using the implicit male gendered
                          title as the default (should that become the
                          standard...)?

                          Of course the discussion could go the other way and I
                          could end up as Mother Jerry Kliner! :-)

                          Pax Christi;
                          Pr. Jerry Kliner

                          The Rev'd Kendall Reimer wrote:
                          > Well you all may find this weird but this "Mother"
                          > prefers to be called
                          > Father." I explain to people it is not me but the
                          > office they are addressing


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                        • James Morgan
                          Well, the Anglican Prayer Books all say they are ordaining Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, not pastors or rectors or even parsons or ministers . I suppose
                          Message 12 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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                            Well, the Anglican Prayer Books all say they are ordaining Bishops, Priests,
                            and Deacons, not pastors or rectors or even 'parsons' or 'ministers'. I
                            suppose we (or you in this case) can be content with that?

                            Whatever!

                            Rdr. James
                            Eastern Orthodox guy in Olympia, WA where for a change it is balmy, and so
                            am I!

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of dcowling@...
                            Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 8:32 AM
                            To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: RE: [liturgy-l] priest or minister?

                            >
                            > From: Jerry Kliner <jerry_kliner@...>

                            > Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] priest or minister?

                            Many protestants, unfortunately, do not grasp such
                            > subtlety and throw the terms "Priest," "Pastor," and
                            > "Minister" (and "Reverend" and "Preacher" for that
                            > matter)around rather carelessly.
                            >
                            > Pax Christi;
                            > Pr. Jerry Kliner
                            >
                            I have never understood why "pastor" does not achieve wider use,
                            especially among Anglicans. It is a scriptural title and has the
                            advantage of already being in use in the Catholic and most Protestant
                            churches. Hard to get the anglican to give up all those stupid
                            meaningless titles like "vicar" and "rector"

                            Doug Cowling
                            Church of the Messiah, Toronto
                          • dcowling@sympatico.ca
                            From: Jerry Kliner Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] priest or minister? ... The other and equally scriptural precedent is to address everyone
                            Message 13 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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                              From: Jerry Kliner <jerry_kliner@...>
                              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] priest or minister?
                              >
                              > I think that there's good, Pauline theology behind a
                              > single title for clergy (In Christ there is no east or
                              > west...).

                              The other and equally scriptural precedent is to address everyone by
                              baptismal name followed of necessary by their order or role, i.e.
                              "Paul, an apostle ..." It is certainly the practice of the early chuch to
                              refer to each other by first names.

                              If I'm not mistaken, British investitures annouce the person by first
                              name then title. Thus, my wife would announced as "Elizabeth, Mrs.
                              Douglas Cowling". (She might add "Mother and Martyr")

                              We won't get into the intricacies of Anglican bishops taking their
                              dioceses as second names, a practice which in Canada produced
                              such edifying names as "Henry Moosonee".

                              Robert Runcie told the story of how he met so many wonderful people
                              on his trip to California and how he hoped one day to learn their last
                              names.

                              Douglas Cowling
                              Director of Music & Litugical Arts
                              Church of the Messiah, Toronto
                            • Scott Knitter
                              I like the sound of Derwyn Toronto (who signed the preface in the Canadian Blue Hymnal ). An author should use that name for the hero of a mystery novel. ...
                              Message 14 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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                                I like the sound of Derwyn Toronto (who signed the preface in the
                                Canadian "Blue Hymnal"). An author should use that name for the hero
                                of a mystery novel.

                                On 03/08/05, dcowling@... <dcowling@...> wrote:

                                > We won't get into the intricacies of Anglican bishops taking their
                                > dioceses as second names, a practice which in Canada produced
                                > such edifying names as "Henry Moosonee".

                                --
                                Scott R. Knitter
                                Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
                                mailto:scottknitter@... - http://scottknitter.blog-city.com
                              • Ron Miller
                                Then there s the story about a former bishop of Quincy or some such Anglo Catholic diocese who was travelling in France with his wife. After he registered at
                                Message 15 of 29 , Aug 3, 2005
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                                  Then there's the story about a former bishop of Quincy or some such
                                  Anglo Catholic diocese who was travelling in France with his wife. After
                                  he registered at the Paris hotel as The Rt. Rev. John Quincy and Mrs
                                  Smith, the concierge read the register, winked at the bishop, and said I
                                  'm sure you'll enjoy your stay, bishop.

                                  Scott Knitter wrote:

                                  > I like the sound of Derwyn Toronto (who signed the preface in the
                                  > Canadian "Blue Hymnal"). An author should use that name for the hero
                                  > of a mystery novel.
                                  >
                                  > On 03/08/05, dcowling@... <dcowling@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>We won't get into the intricacies of Anglican bishops taking their
                                  >>dioceses as second names, a practice which in Canada produced
                                  >>such edifying names as "Henry Moosonee".
                                  >
                                  >

                                  --
                                  Ron Miller (The Rev. Ronald H.) Baltimore, MD
                                  What finally counts is not what biblical texts or church doctrines tell
                                  us we MAY believe, but what humanity, reason, justice, and Christ's love
                                  tell us we OUGHT to believe
                                  William Sloane Coffin in Credo (p. 142)
                                • DJP4LAW@aol.com
                                  Reminds me of the radical feminist lesbian moving company in Chicago that styled themselves, as their business name, The Mother Truckers. Pax et bonum,
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Aug 4, 2005
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                                    Reminds me of the radical feminist lesbian moving company in Chicago
                                    that styled themselves, as their business name, "The Mother Truckers."

                                    Pax et bonum,
                                    Dwight Penas
                                    Minneapolis

                                    _____________________________
                                    So if a Catholic or an Amishman or a Southern Baptist or whatever tells
                                    you that you don?t worship the same God as he does, he may be bigoted
                                    or self-righteous; or he may just be honest. -- Camassia

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Jerry Kliner <jerry_kliner@...>
                                    To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:05:55 -0700 (PDT)
                                    Subject: Re: Re: [liturgy-l] priest or minister?

                                    A truly unfortunate combination of title and name! :)

                                    Pr. Jerry Kliner

                                    Doug wrote:
                                    "A woman priest in Toronto asked to be called Mother.
                                    Some found it unfortunate that her name was Tucker."




                                    ____________________________________________________
                                    Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
                                    http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs



                                    Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write
                                    to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                                    liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                                  • James Morgan
                                    Why not: Priest John, or Priest Evelyn? Gender neutral, and explicifies the office! Rdr. James ... From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Aug 4, 2005
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                                      Why not: Priest John, or Priest Evelyn? Gender neutral, and explicifies the
                                      office!

                                      Rdr. James

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                      Of Jerry Kliner
                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 2:03 PM
                                      To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] priest or minister?

                                      Not weird at all... Actually I think that's where
                                      Scott was headed with his Star Trek citation.

                                      I think that there's good, Pauline theology behind a
                                      single title for clergy (In Christ there is no east or
                                      west...). The question then becomes what do we do
                                      with the implicit gendered language of both "Father"
                                      and "Mother." (Notice that the subject line of the
                                      related thread became "call no man mother...")
                                      "Pastor," "Minister," and "Reverend" all avoid the
                                      issue because they are (in form) gender neutral. Even
                                      "Priest," were we to unshackle the term from how it
                                      was used could be used in a gender neutral form (even
                                      as the term "Aviator" now is used for both women and
                                      men instead of "Aviator/Aviatrix").

                                      Fr. Reimer works just fine. I just wonder how many
                                      people will accept using the implicit male gendered
                                      title as the default (should that become the
                                      standard...)?

                                      Of course the discussion could go the other way and I
                                      could end up as Mother Jerry Kliner! :-)

                                      Pax Christi;
                                      Pr. Jerry Kliner

                                      The Rev'd Kendall Reimer wrote:
                                      > Well you all may find this weird but this "Mother"
                                      > prefers to be called
                                      > Father." I explain to people it is not me but the
                                      > office they are addressing


                                      __________________________________________________
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                                      write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
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                                    • Scott Knitter
                                      I like it: Priest John, Reader James, Servant of God Jim... Parishioner Scott ... -- Scott R. Knitter Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Aug 4, 2005
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                                        I like it: Priest John, Reader James, Servant of God Jim...

                                        Parishioner Scott

                                        On 04/08/05, James Morgan <rdrjames@...> wrote:
                                        > Why not: Priest John, or Priest Evelyn? Gender neutral, and explicifies the
                                        > office!

                                        --
                                        Scott R. Knitter
                                        Edgewater, Chicago, Illinois USA
                                        mailto:scottknitter@... - http://scottknitter.blog-city.com
                                      • James Morgan
                                        Oh, just call me servus servorum Dei. I ll get used to it! Pecattor peccatoribus Jacobus de Olympiaay... ... From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Aug 4, 2005
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                                          Oh, just call me servus servorum Dei. I'll get used to it!

                                          Pecattor peccatoribus Jacobus de Olympiaay...

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com [mailto:liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                          Of Scott Knitter
                                          Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 4:22 PM
                                          To: liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] priest or minister?

                                          I like it: Priest John, Reader James, Servant of God Jim...

                                          Parishioner Scott

                                          On 04/08/05, James Morgan <rdrjames@...> wrote:
                                          > Why not: Priest John, or Priest Evelyn? Gender neutral, and explicifies
                                          the
                                          > office!
                                        • Theodore R. Lorah, Jr.
                                          Re: Priest or Minister I have been away for nine days, so I may be a little late on this one. However, I have now read several, and none go back to the source.
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Aug 10, 2005
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                                            Re: Priest or Minister

                                            I have been away for nine days, so I may be a little late on this one.
                                            However, I have now read several, and none go back to the source. The
                                            word "pastor", shepherd, is a biblical term derived from the image Jesus
                                            gives of himself in conjunction with his words to peter at the end of
                                            John to "feed my sheep." And Jeremiah quotes God as saying: "I will
                                            give them pastors after my own heart."

                                            The word priest comes from the Greek "presbuteros", which means "elder",
                                            as opposed to "episkopos," president., or bishop. Methodists are
                                            ordained "deacon" and "elder." Presbyterians are ordained "elder", with
                                            the differentiation made between ruling elders, who are members of the
                                            Session, and reaching elders, who are pastors. (That was explicit in
                                            the old Southern Church, but it was not in the Northern Church.) The
                                            word "priest" is etymologically derived from the first part of
                                            "presbuteros", the "pres + t" making the word "priest." It essentially
                                            derives from the same place and means the same function in the congregation.

                                            I think we make too much of the terminological differences, missing the
                                            essential function that priests, elders, pastors perform a sacramental
                                            (except for Baptists) function within the worship that lay people do
                                            not. Now how much authority they have to exercise that function and
                                            what it means in the eyes of the laity in terms of church administration
                                            varies from denomination to denomination, and that is where the fun
                                            comes in as we argue those points. But a priest is an elder. A pastor
                                            is an elder. And an ordained minister is an elder.

                                            Ted Lorah
                                          • Tom Poelker
                                            Bishop is derived from episkopos by the same sort of oral twisting as priest derives from presbyteros. The usual translation is of episkopos is
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Aug 10, 2005
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                                              "Bishop" is derived from "episkopos" by the same sort of oral twisting
                                              as "priest" derives from "presbyteros."
                                              The usual translation is of "episkopos" is "overseer."
                                              I have never before seen "episkopos" translated as "presider" or
                                              "president."
                                              "President/presider" is a direct borrowing from the Latin, "pre-sedere"
                                              basically meaning "to sit in front."

                                              Tom Poelker
                                              St. Louis, Missouri
                                              USA

                                              An unemployed jester is nobody's fool.




                                              lorah@... wrote:

                                              >Re: Priest or Minister
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >The word priest comes from the Greek "presbuteros", which means "elder",
                                              >as opposed to "episkopos," president., or bishop.
                                              >
                                              >Ted Lorah
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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