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Re: [liturgy-l] Benedict XVI on Liturgical Changes.

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  • James O'Regan
    ... What the author of the Catholic Herald misses and what Card Ratzinger wrote himself, rather than what is being reported, is that the reform of Vat II has
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 4, 2005
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      David wrote and I snipped:

      > That process
      > produced some positive results, but also created a cringing
      > acceptance of liberal orthodoxy and services of such spectacular
      > ugliness that they repelled the very people they were supposed to
      > attract. John Paul II should have reformed the liturgy, but did not.
      > As a result, too many Masses are as soul-destroyingly banal as they
      > were in the 1970s.

      What the author of the Catholic Herald misses and what Card Ratzinger
      wrote himself, rather than what is being reported, is that the reform of Vat II
      has not yet been achieved. All that has happened is that the books have been
      edited and rubrics reshaped. That simply is not enough. But the resources
      allocated to the reform stopped at those two steps, although with calls for
      further progress in the reform.

      Unfortunately, sex scandals, etc. have drawn resources away from further
      progress both morally and monetarily.

      'Paying attention to the internal logic of the liturgy' to paraphrase Card
      Ratizinger is not a matter of introducing further reform or reforming the
      reform. It is examining what the church has in its hands and giving it reverent
      care.

      Sotto voce masses, orientation, all the things listed within the Cath Herald
      article are bogus attempts at reforming the reform and ignore the careful
      examination of what it is that the Church holds now.
      What is very accurate in this report is that liturgy is incredibly banal. But the
      invigoration or inspiration of this liturgy is not accomplished by dicking
      around with the changing of this thing for that thing. The reverent care called
      by Card Ratzinger for is the "making sense" of how God works with what we
      have.

      The fundamental gap is a training gap for priests. None have been trained in
      the current liturgy simply because it is vernacular and, the thinking must go,
      how hard can it be to pray in one's own language. The answer, which has
      manifested itself as banal liturgies, is pretty damn hard actually.

      The solution, called for by Card Ratzinger, is the "reverent and beautiful
      celebration" of the liturgy. This call resonates with descriptions by Justin and
      Hippolytus at a time when liturgy was still vernacular.

      The knee jerk reaction to the anything Pope Benedict says about improving
      the liturgy is to see in it big changes in what we do not in how we do it. Card
      Ratzinger dismisses those kind of aspirations, a reform of the reform, in his
      own writings.

      The wrong tree is being barked at.

      James O'Regan
    • dcowling@sympatico.ca
      ... The knee jerk reaction to the anything Pope Benedict says about improving ... I agree. And this is not just the problem of the Roman Catholic Church. The
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 4, 2005
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        >
        > From: "James O'Regan" <oregan@...>
        The knee jerk reaction to the anything Pope Benedict says about improving
        > the liturgy is to see in it big changes in what we do not in how we do it. Card
        > Ratzinger dismisses those kind of aspirations, a reform of the reform, in his
        > own writings.
        >
        > The wrong tree is being barked at.
        >

        I agree. And this is not just the problem of the Roman Catholic Church. The Anglican Church, which is
        so quick to congratulate itself on "liturgy well-done", is still awaiting a liturgical renewal even though the
        new rites are all in place. We still see Sunday liturgies which are poorly designed, indifferently
        executed, and larded over with "historic" fussiness. I believe that the pope's comments are directed to
        "liturgy ill-done" regardless of whether they have birettas or liturgical dance.

        Doug Cowling
        Director of Music & Liturgical Arts
        Church of the Messiah,Toronto
      • cantor03@aol.com
        I don t know about the source for this quotation, the UK Catholic Herald. It may be a Conservative publication, with an editorial ax to grind. However-
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 4, 2005
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          I don't know about the source for this quotation, the UK "Catholic Herald."
          It may be a Conservative publication, with an editorial "ax to grind."

          However-

          Actually, I think the material in this article is fairly straight forward and
          unadorned, and accords with what get out of reading Cardinal Ratzinger's
          book, the "Spirit of the Liturgy," as well as other information about the
          now Pope Benedict XVI that has come my way.

          Despite the good points both James and Doug bring up in their posts
          about this article, I don' t think any amount of vigorous backpedaling
          can counter the direct main flow of information about the present Pontiff's
          liturgical ideas one gleans from his writings and interviews. IOW, I
          don't think the article is full of misinformation.

          I learned some new information about Benedict XVI from the complete
          article, which I didn't put online: (1) He was a professor at the
          University
          in Regensburg [Rattisbon]. I knew that his brother was choirmaster at
          one point, of the Regensburg Dom Mens' and Boys' Choir there, the
          only such establishment still extant in Germany. That's how the Pope
          knew conservative Klaus Gambler, also of Regensburg. I've been in
          Regensburg.
          It's a lovely Catholic town, simply packed with impressive churches, not the
          least of which is the Cathedral. It's where my friend, the late Mason
          Martens,
          polyphonic scholar and publisher, always spent summers poking through the
          archives for obscure, and often wonderful, polyphony. (2) He had a lot of
          contact [which I should have realized] with Protestants, and this is in
          direct
          contrast to nearly all other Popes. I can't help but feel that this gives
          Benedict XVI an overall insight that hasn't been present much in the Vatican.


          David Strang.




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        • Pastor Art Hebbeler STS
          David Strang wrote and I snipped (2) He had a lot of contact [which I should have realized] with Protestants, and this is in direct contrast to nearly
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 4, 2005
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            David Strang wrote and I snipped

            <SNIP>
            (2) He had a lot of contact [which I should have realized] with Protestants,
            and this is in direct contrast to nearly all other Popes. I can't help but
            feel that this gives Benedict XVI an overall insight that hasn't been
            present much in the Vatican.
            <SNIP>

            Indeed, David. We should remember that this is the first post-Luther German
            to be elected bishop of Rome. He frequently separates Lutherans from other
            Protestants. As archbishop of Munich post-WWII, he lived elbow-to-elbow
            with Lutherans who, for a host of reasons, were relocated south, just as
            Roman Catholics were resettling in traditionally Reformed or Evangelical
            areas.

            As a Lutheran, I find these especially interesting times for the Church and
            the whole of the Reformation movement.

            Art Hebbeler
          • Frank Senn
            It was Cardinal Ratzinger who rescued the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification when the Vatican Congregation on Christian Unity put out some
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 4, 2005
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              It was Cardinal Ratzinger who rescued the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification when the Vatican Congregation on Christian Unity put out some ill-timed comments on what the JDDJ DIDN'T mean. Ratzinger was able to sit down with his fellow Bavarian, Bishop Hanselmann, who at the time was President of the Lutheran World Federation, and work out a common understanding so that it was possible to procede with the official signing of the JDDJ on October 31, 1999. The fact is that, as Art points out, this is the first pope since the Reformation who actually knows Protestants (well, at least Lutherans) and has even prayed with them. He also worked closely with Retired Bishop William Lazareth of New York when Lazareth was Director of the Faith and Order Commission, in which the Roman Catholic participates even though it is not a member of the World Council of Churches.

              Frank C. Senn

              Pastor Art Hebbeler STS <pastorhebbeler@...> wrote:
              David Strang wrote and I snipped


              (2) He had a lot of contact [which I should have realized] with Protestants,
              and this is in direct contrast to nearly all other Popes. I can't help but
              feel that this gives Benedict XVI an overall insight that hasn't been
              present much in the Vatican.


              Indeed, David. We should remember that this is the first post-Luther German
              to be elected bishop of Rome. He frequently separates Lutherans from other
              Protestants. As archbishop of Munich post-WWII, he lived elbow-to-elbow
              with Lutherans who, for a host of reasons, were relocated south, just as
              Roman Catholics were resettling in traditionally Reformed or Evangelical
              areas.

              As a Lutheran, I find these especially interesting times for the Church and
              the whole of the Reformation movement.

              Art Hebbeler



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            • Vaudeth Oberlander
              Speaking from the pew, I find Pope Benedict s plan for the liturgy truly frightening. What he doesn t seem to acknowledge is that the liturgy is communal and
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 4, 2005
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                Speaking from the pew, I find Pope Benedict's plan for the liturgy truly frightening. What he doesn't seem to acknowledge is that the liturgy is communal and was never intended to be a me and God thing. Music is such a huge issue that I hesitate to say anything but my philosophy is that we have much richness musically in the past as well as the present and I like to see all of it used at some point in time. But then there's the question of whose musical judgment does one use. I would hope that we will continue to develop the liturgy as we evolve our religious consciousness. I want a living liturgy not a dead one. But it seems Pope Benedict wants a church that lives as it did 50 years ago. In that case, he will surely have a small remnant church. That seems to be okay with him. It's so nice for some to belong to a church that has only pure believers who never change. My God is a living God however,who grows and develops in all areas, in the liturgy as well as in technology etc. etc.
                Vaud

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