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Re: Kneeling vs. Standing.

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  • cantor03@aol.com
    On another list last week, there was a post about the fact that a year or so ago, Cardinal Mahoney, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Los Angeles, issued a
    Message 1 of 12 , May 6 7:39 PM
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      On another list last week, there was a post about the fact that a year
      or so ago, Cardinal Mahoney, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Los Angeles,
      issued a proclamation that the recommended posture for the Canon
      of the Eucharist in the Archdiocese was to be standing. The recommendation
      of the USA Conference of RC Bishops has been kneeling for the Canon.

      Without implying a preference for either posture, I'm curious to know if
      the Ordinary of a RC Diocese has the jurisdiction to trump the current
      rules of the USA RC Conference of Bishops on such a matter.


      David Strang.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • LesandJon@aol.com
      In a message dated 5/6/2005 10:40:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cantor03@aol.com writes: On another list last week, there was a post about the fact that a
      Message 2 of 12 , May 6 8:19 PM
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        In a message dated 5/6/2005 10:40:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        cantor03@... writes:


        On another list last week, there was a post about the fact that a year
        or so ago, Cardinal Mahoney, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Los Angeles,
        issued a proclamation that the recommended posture for the Canon
        of the Eucharist in the Archdiocese was to be standing. The recommendation
        of the USA Conference of RC Bishops has been kneeling for the Canon.



        Do you have a citation for Cardinal Mahony (no "e") calling for standing
        during the eucharistic Prayer. I'm fairly certain he's called for all to stand
        during the Communion Rite (from the Our Father through the end of the
        distribution) and has chosen to allow sitting or kneeling for the silence following
        the rite. What he's requesting is in line with current rubric. I believe
        the only portion of current legislation he's chosen not to implement (or is it
        not chosen to implement) is the prohibition on pouring the precious blood
        from one vessel to another.

        Blessings,
        Les Selage
        St. Joseph Chuch
        Palm Bay, FL


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • cantor03@aol.com
        In a message dated 5/7/2005 12:00:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, LesandJon@aol.com writes: In a message dated 5/6/2005 10:40:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        Message 3 of 12 , May 7 1:33 AM
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          In a message dated 5/7/2005 12:00:31 AM Eastern Standard Time,
          LesandJon@... writes:


          In a message dated 5/6/2005 10:40:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          cantor03@... writes:


          On another list last week, there was a post about the fact that a year
          or so ago, Cardinal Mahoney, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Los Angeles,
          issued a proclamation that the recommended posture for the Canon
          of the Eucharist in the Archdiocese was to be standing. The
          recommendation
          of the USA Conference of RC Bishops has been kneeling for the Canon.



          Do you have a citation for Cardinal Mahony (no "e") calling for standing
          during the eucharistic Prayer.>>>>

          No, sorry, I do not. This is just a quotation from a discussion elsewhere,
          which may be flawed information. However, the question about how much
          liturgical detail a local Ordinary can change, remains.

          David Strang.









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • The Gonnermans
          I ve seen his Masses with the Hosts in a woven basket; I m pretty certain that Church documents said that the sacred species were to be in containers of noble
          Message 4 of 12 , May 7 1:36 AM
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            I've seen his Masses with the Hosts in a woven basket; I'm pretty certain
            that Church documents said that the sacred species were to be in containers
            of noble material.

            Grace and agape,
            Joshua

            I'm afraid the Minister has fallen through the earth's crust.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <LesandJon@...>
            To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 7:19 AM
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Re: Kneeling vs. Standing.


            >
            > In a message dated 5/6/2005 10:40:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            > cantor03@... writes:
            >
            >
            > On another list last week, there was a post about the fact that a year
            > or so ago, Cardinal Mahoney, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Los Angeles,
            > issued a proclamation that the recommended posture for the Canon
            > of the Eucharist in the Archdiocese was to be standing. The
            recommendation
            > of the USA Conference of RC Bishops has been kneeling for the Canon.
            >
            >
            >
            > Do you have a citation for Cardinal Mahony (no "e") calling for standing
            > during the eucharistic Prayer. I'm fairly certain he's called for all to
            stand
            > during the Communion Rite (from the Our Father through the end of the
            > distribution) and has chosen to allow sitting or kneeling for the silence
            following
            > the rite. What he's requesting is in line with current rubric. I
            believe
            > the only portion of current legislation he's chosen not to implement (or
            is it
            > not chosen to implement) is the prohibition on pouring the precious blood
            > from one vessel to another.
            >
            > Blessings,
            > Les Selage
            > St. Joseph Chuch
            > Palm Bay, FL
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
            write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • The Gonnermans
            An equally good question would be whether the USCCB has the right to say you shouldn t kneel when the Vatican has made it clear that it s perfectly all
            Message 5 of 12 , May 7 1:36 AM
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              An equally good question would be whether the USCCB has the right to say
              "you shouldn't kneel" when the Vatican has made it clear that it's perfectly
              all right.

              Grace and agape,
              Joshua

              I'm afraid the Minister has fallen through the earth's crust.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <cantor03@...>
              To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 6:39 AM
              Subject: [liturgy-l] Re: Kneeling vs. Standing.


              >
              > On another list last week, there was a post about the fact that a year
              > or so ago, Cardinal Mahoney, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Los Angeles,
              > issued a proclamation that the recommended posture for the Canon
              > of the Eucharist in the Archdiocese was to be standing. The
              recommendation
              > of the USA Conference of RC Bishops has been kneeling for the Canon.
              >
              > Without implying a preference for either posture, I'm curious to know if
              > the Ordinary of a RC Diocese has the jurisdiction to trump the current
              > rules of the USA RC Conference of Bishops on such a matter.
              >
              >
              > David Strang.
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
              write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From
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              > Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 22:50:58 -0400
              > Subject: Re: [catholic-chat] Re: feeding it to the birds (was What I
              *Don't* Like about the Catholic Church)
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              > <tt>
              > and follow up with the wine?  Dolores<BR>
              > ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
              > From: "peej" <pjd711@...><BR>
              > To: <catholic-chat@yahoogroups.com><BR>
              > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 3:42 PM<BR>
              > Subject: [catholic-chat] Re: feeding it to the birds (was What I *Don't*
              <B=
              > R>
              > Like about the Catholic Church)<BR>
              > <BR>
              > <BR>
              > --- In catholic-chat@yahoogroups.com, "Dolores"
              <geri41967@g..=
              > .> wrote:<BR>
              > > When I was attending a Methodist church that had monthly Tazay
              (sp?)<B=
              > R>
              > > services, the minister was away for 2 months on a mission so he<BR>
              > > assigned duties to everyone.  He asked me to get the wine and
              pit=
              > a<BR>
              > > bread for the Communion both months which I did.  The first
              month=
              > the<BR>
              > > pastor who stood in for him had me help her consume the pita bread
              and=
              > <BR>
              > > wine that wasn't used since it had been blessed.  Well the
              second=
              > <BR>
              > > month the pastor just covered it up.  I asked her about
              consuming=
              > it<BR>
              > > and she just laughed it off and said give it to the birds!<BR>
              > <BR>
              > A friend of mine is the son of a Lutheran
            • Bob White
              ... From Gather Faithfully Together: This participation in the Eucharistic Prayer has been the greatest change at Our Lady of the Angels. The parish always
              Message 6 of 12 , May 7 6:30 AM
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                On 5/6/2005 11:19 PM, LesandJon@... wrote:

                > Do you have a citation for Cardinal Mahony (no "e") calling for standing
                > during the eucharistic Prayer.


                From Gather Faithfully Together:

                "This participation in the Eucharistic Prayer has been the greatest
                change at Our Lady of the Angels. The parish always worked for good
                singing and good lectors. But the Eucharistic Prayer was a kind of
                orphan. People said, “We lift them up to the Lord,” and sang the “Holy,
                Holy.” But for years no one could have told you anything about the
                Eucharistic Prayer except that “the priest does the consecration.” Now
                the parishioners can talk about the experience of standing and singing
                God's praise together; they can see how much their lives need to be
                filled with thanksgiving; and they recognize that their presence to one
                another at this table witnesses to the breadth of the Church in place
                and in time, a holy communion. They can talk about solidarity with one
                another across all dividing lines. They can talk about sacrifice and the
                mystery of Christ's passion, death and resurrection that is remembered
                and realized here in a powerful shaping of their own lives. Above all,
                they can talk about the way the Holy Spirit is invoked to transform
                these gifts and themselves. And so they are talking about the presence
                of Christ in the simple gifts of bread and wine, and in the mystery that
                is this Church. (CCC: 1352-1354)"

                http://www.la-archdiocese.org/Eucharist/E970904.html


                Bob

                --
                Alleluia! Christ is risen!

                Bob White
                Lordstown Lutheran Church
                Lordstown, Ohio
              • cantor03@aol.com
                In a message dated 5/7/2005 9:30:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, rwhite84@neo.rr.com writes: From Gather Faithfully Together: This participation in the
                Message 7 of 12 , May 7 6:52 AM
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                  In a message dated 5/7/2005 9:30:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                  rwhite84@... writes:




                  From Gather Faithfully Together:

                  "This participation in the Eucharistic Prayer [snip]>>>>>


                  ...et voila!

                  This certainly suggests that the recommendation in the Cathedral
                  Parish, and therefore the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, is to stand for
                  the entire Canon starting with the Sanctus.

                  But the question about the limits of the local Ordinary in liturgical
                  matters remains.


                  David Strang.




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Karen Marie Knapp
                  ... This only speaks, in passing, about standing for the Sanctus --- which is standard procedure and was back in the pre-Council days also. Doesn t deal with
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 7 7:03 AM
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                    At 08:30 AM 5/7/2005, you wrote:
                    >On 5/6/2005 11:19 PM, LesandJon@... wrote:
                    >
                    > > Do you have a citation for Cardinal Mahony (no "e") calling for standing
                    > > during the eucharistic Prayer.
                    >
                    >
                    > From Gather Faithfully Together:
                    >
                    >"This participation in the Eucharistic Prayer has been the greatest
                    >change at Our Lady of the Angels. The parish always worked for good
                    >singing and good lectors. But the Eucharistic Prayer was a kind of
                    >orphan. People said, "We lift them up to the Lord," and sang the "Holy,
                    >Holy." But for years no one could have told you anything about the
                    >Eucharistic Prayer except that "the priest does the consecration." Now
                    >the parishioners can talk about the experience of standing and singing
                    >God's praise together; they can see how much their lives need to be
                    >filled with thanksgiving; and they recognize that their presence to one
                    >another at this table witnesses to the breadth of the Church in place
                    >and in time, a holy communion. They can talk about solidarity with one
                    >another across all dividing lines. They can talk about sacrifice and the
                    >mystery of Christ's passion, death and resurrection that is remembered
                    >and realized here in a powerful shaping of their own lives. Above all,
                    >they can talk about the way the Holy Spirit is invoked to transform
                    >these gifts and themselves. And so they are talking about the presence
                    >of Christ in the simple gifts of bread and wine, and in the mystery that
                    >is this Church. (CCC: 1352-1354)"

                    This only speaks, in passing, about standing for the Sanctus --- which is
                    standard procedure and was back in the pre-Council days also. Doesn't deal
                    with posture at all otherwise.

                    karen marie
                    "from the anchor hold" http://kmknapp.blogspot.com/
                    ================
                  • LesandJon@aol.com
                    In a message dated 5/7/2005 9:56:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kmknapp@execpc.com writes: This only speaks, in passing, about standing for the Sanctus ---
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 7 7:16 AM
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                      In a message dated 5/7/2005 9:56:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      kmknapp@... writes:

                      This only speaks, in passing, about standing for the Sanctus --- which is
                      standard procedure and was back in the pre-Council days also. Doesn't deal
                      with posture at all otherwise.


                      This is probably becoming beyond the scope of the list, if so I'm sorry. In
                      addition, Gather Faithfully Together well predates both the current General
                      Instruction as adapted for Dioceses of the US as well as Redemptionis
                      Sacramentum.

                      My guess is that when a bishop goes too far his wings will be clipped. I'm
                      guessing a posture which is far from universal throughout the church is not
                      one of them. While I'm on a guessing role, I'm guessing that the talk of
                      standing during the Eucharistic Prayer was actually his instruction to stand
                      during the Communion Rite. In this, case his right to standardize posture is
                      expressly stated.

                      Blessings,
                      Leslie Selage
                      Palm Bay, FL


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Thomas R. Jackson
                      ... In general, no. Church law is different than American secular law in that it generally flows upward. local laws generally take precedence over more
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 7 8:15 AM
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                        David asked:

                        >I'm curious to know if
                        >the Ordinary of a RC Diocese has the jurisdiction to trump the current
                        >rules of the USA RC Conference of Bishops on such a matter.


                        In general, no.

                        Church law is different than American secular law in that it generally
                        flows upward. local laws generally take precedence over more general
                        laws. Local Bishops have the authority to make laws for their own
                        jurisdictions. However, "higher" authorities can reserve powers to
                        themselves. Rome reserves liturgical law to itself, and delegates certain
                        aspects to local authorities. Most of the local variations are delegated,
                        not to the local Ordinary, but to the local episcopal conferences.

                        There are exceptions, of course, as with all things legal. for example, in
                        the US, the bishops' conference delegated their power to approve music to
                        local bishops, so, any bishop in the US can approve music for his own
                        diocese. however, since no one bother to actually regulate music, it isn't
                        an important practical issue. But when local bishops have imposed
                        restrictions on local liturgy, such as bishops trying to ban the use of
                        Latin, or trying to impose ad populum celebrations on all Masses in
                        Churches, those effected by the decrees have had successful appeals. On
                        the other hand, sometimes local rulings have been allowed to stand, such as
                        special regulations for televised liturgies, which was considered to be a
                        special case. In practice, what the bishop says pretty much goes, unless
                        someone appeals the matter. But local priests still have to live and work
                        in a diocese after an appeal, so, unless the bishop takes some personal
                        action against them, they aren't a group that is anxious to go calling up
                        Rome. For their own part, it has been my experience that bishops are often
                        more concerned with getting their own agenda done, than the niceties of
                        liturgical law, or other Church law for that matter. If Rome doesn't
                        interfere, they generally do as they like.

                        Joshua asked:

                        >An equally good question would be whether the USCCB has the right to say
                        >"you shouldn't kneel" when the Vatican has made it clear that it's perfectly
                        >all right.

                        Well, yes they do, as the local episcopal conference has the power to enact
                        laws for the purpose of local liturgical adaptation. However, normally
                        these laws must receive approval from Rome, so they end up not being
                        against Rome, even if they are contrary to universal Roman law. In the
                        case of kneeling, the USCCB has made two rulings. One law mandates
                        kneeling in parts of the Mass where the universal law calls for
                        standing. They have also mandated standing for the reception of
                        Communion. However, deny Communion simply because a communicant decides to
                        kneel is not only un-Christian, petty and an abuse of power, but it is also
                        contrary to canon law. Rome has made that clear, which doesn't invalidate
                        the US local law about reception of Communion.

                        As others have noted, Gathering Faithfully Together predates the recent
                        revisions of the GIRM, as well as RS. Also, it offers more of a vision,
                        with only a few specific instructions or recommendations. I agree with
                        those who note that, with regards to posture, even the vision offered is
                        not necessarily contrary to the GIRM, or US particular law, past or present.

                        thomas.
                      • James O'Regan
                        ... We have a canon lawyer lurking who may be able to address this. But, without my notes and reference - in Montreal for an AAR meeting - the Bishop and
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 7 7:21 PM
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                          David wrote and I snipped:

                          > But the question about the limits of the local Ordinary in liturgical
                          > matters remains.

                          We have a canon lawyer lurking who may be able
                          to address this. But, without my notes and
                          reference - in Montreal for an AAR meeting - the
                          Bishop and conferences of Bishops have a good
                          deal of jurisdiction on liturgical matters, some of
                          which must be approved by Rome. If anyone can
                          do such a thing, it is the Bishop.

                          An interesting read on this is Ratzinger's book
                          review in Sacred Music winter 2004, about what
                          even the pope can and cannot do.


                          James O'Regan
                        • asteresplanetai
                          +++ hello. ... Um, I think the cardinal might be right. Everyone knows, of course, that kneeling or prostrating is not practiced in the Catholic (i.e.,
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 8 4:22 PM
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                            +++

                            hello.

                            >> Cardinal Mahoney, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Los Angeles,
                            >> issued a proclamation that the recommended posture for the Canon
                            >> of the Eucharist in the Archdiocese was to be standing.

                            > "...Now
                            > the parishioners can talk about the experience of standing and singing
                            > God's praise together; they can see how much their lives need to be
                            > filled with thanksgiving; and they recognize that their presence to one
                            > another at this table witnesses to the breadth of the Church in place
                            > and in time, a holy communion..... (CCC: 1352-1354)"
                            >
                            > http://www.la-archdiocese.org/Eucharist/E970904.html

                            Um, I think the cardinal might be right. Everyone knows, of course,
                            that kneeling or prostrating is not practiced in the Catholic (i.e.,
                            universal) Church during the entire period of Pascha, i.e., from
                            'Easter' to Pentecost, or on any Lord's Day (i.e., 'Sunday', which is
                            always the Day of Resurrection), or on any day after Communion, or on
                            any great feast, for such was the decision of the earliest Ecumenical
                            Councils, which were accepted by all the churches of God.

                            The point being that Christ is risen, and has raised us up, so we stand
                            up.

                            If recalcitrant parishioners or canonists need further discussion
                            (since kneeling during the Great Entrance has been observed even in
                            Orthodox churches on the Lord's Day), one might refer, e.g., (there are
                            other examples that address the further particulars, but i am not able
                            to look them up just now) to the First Ecumenical Council, Canon 20:
                            http://jbburnett.com/resources/canons/1can/1can20.html, or to Quinisext
                            Council, Canon 90:
                            http://jbburnett.com/resources/canons/56can/56can090.html.

                            It is not possible, obviously, to undecide what the Fathers universally
                            decided, or to unbind what they bound on earth as in heaven, when all
                            the churches accepted it, unless, of course, one belongs to a different
                            organization than the Catholic Church which so accepted, with different
                            practices, or unless one takes local custom to be of greater weight
                            than the theologically based practice of the Church throughout the
                            ecumene.

                            Of course, kneelings and prostrations would not necessarily be
                            contraindicated-- and might be encouraged or even appointed-- on
                            weekdays (esp. (mondays), wednesdays and fridays), or especially during
                            periods or days of fasting, or even on ordinary ferial days outside the
                            season of pascha to pentecost.

                            But kneeling and standing both belong to a certain language or
                            vocabulary of Christian practice, which is theologically determined,
                            and which is not simply a matter of romantic nostalgia and
                            sentimentality.

                            Or as my former bishop once said, "Sentimentality is the death of the
                            Church."

                            Kristo azuukidde! Kyamaziima azuukidde!
                            Kristo ocher! Adada ocher!
                            Ajaru Kristo! Abet ajaru!
                            Kristo amefufuka! Kweli amefufuka!
                            Christ is risen! Indeed he is risen!

                            John burnett.
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