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Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies

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  • The Gonnermans
    Contraception, I believe, has been made a binding teaching on Catholics; I also know he wrote an encyclical which made it required of all Catholics to follow
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 3 10:55 PM
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      Contraception, I believe, has been made a binding teaching on Catholics; I
      also know he wrote an encyclical which made it required of all Catholics to
      follow his judgment that the Churc has not authority to ordain women
      priests.

      Grace and agape,
      Joshua

      We have been greatly blessed to have a leader such as His Holiness John Paul
      II; pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the college of cardinals in
      election of the next Bishop of Rome.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Matthew Weber" <mweber@...>
      To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 9:11 AM
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies


      >
      > At 1:12 PM +1000 4/4/05, Nathan Nettleton wrote:
      > >When asked whether he though there was a chance of a heretic being
      > >elected pope,
      > >Joshua Gonnerman wrote:
      > >
      > >>It's not something that could be entirely ruled out; there's always the
      > >>possibility they might elect someone in favour of artificial
      contraception,
      > >>or ordaining women, or even abortion or remarriage after divorce.
      > >>
      > >I know that these issues are often spoken of with creedal type fervour,
      > >but unless I've missed a change in recent decades, none of them even
      > >rate a mention in the ecumenical creeds that have been our traditional
      > >yardsticks of orthodoxy. To me, Joshua's comments read like a classic
      > >example of the way in which we all, however traditional and orthodox we
      > >might think we are, tend to unconsciously compose our own creeds. Our
      > >own creeds usually focus on issues of current debate, and people on both
      > >sides tend to operate as though their own convictions are undoubtedly
      > >what the Nicene fathers would have gone on to say if they hadn't run out
      > >of paper.
      >
      > Part of the confusion here, I think, is what our definition of
      > orthodoxy is, and what our definition of heresy is.
      >
      > The Roman church, to which Joshua belongs, holds dissent from its
      > dogma to be heretical. Of the four cases which Joshua mentions,
      > abortion and remarriage after divorce are seen by the RCC as
      > non-negotiable. Any Pope who opposed Roman Catholic teaching on
      > those issues would be, by the Church's definition, a heretic.
      >
      > I'm not sure whether the teachings on contraception and the
      > ordination of women are dogmas.
      >
      > And I suppose we all have our ideas of what constitutes orthodoxy. I
      > think subscription to the creeds is a good start, but I would also
      > add adherence to the seven Ecumenical Councils.
      >
      > Funnily enough, I realized the other day while doing some reading on
      > fundamentalism that I'm 80% fundamentalist. I part ways with them on
      > the inerrancy of the Bible (perhaps it's more accurate to say that I
      > disagree with them about how that inerrancy functions), but I'm right
      > with 'em on the other 4 points.
      > --
      > Matt
      >
      > All men have one entrance into life, and the like going out.
      > The Holy Bible (The Apocrypha) : The Wisdom of Solomon, 7:6
      >
      >
      > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
      write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
      > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
      send an email to:
      > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • The Gonnermans
      Hi, Nathan; I know that these issues are often spoken of with creedal type fervour, ... It s not a matter of composing one s own creed , nor do Catholics
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 3 11:07 PM
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        Hi, Nathan;

        "> I know that these issues are often spoken of with creedal type fervour,
        > but unless I've missed a change in recent decades, none of them even
        > rate a mention in the ecumenical creeds that have been our traditional
        > yardsticks of orthodoxy. To me, Joshua's comments read like a classic
        > example of the way in which we all, however traditional and orthodox we
        > might think we are, tend to unconsciously compose our own creeds. Our
        > own creeds usually focus on issues of current debate, and people on both
        > sides tend to operate as though their own convictions are undoubtedly
        > what the Nicene fathers would have gone on to say if they hadn't run out
        > of paper."

        It's not a matter of "composing one's own creed", nor do Catholics view the
        creeds as being the only yardstick of orthodoxy. We believe in an
        authoritative teaching Church, and it is required of us to listen to and
        submit to that Church (which we believe didn't stop being authoritative with
        the council of Nicea).

        "> Surely, as we recite the Creed each Sunday, we are not only being
        > reminded that these beliefs define us as belonging to the orthodox
        > faith, but that outside the parameters set by these beliefs, discussion,
        > debate and dissent are allowable without having to call anyone's
        > orthodoxy into question."

        Of course, this is the way with Protestants; there, every man is his own
        Pope. We Catholics have only one, and dissent is not an option in our
        tradition.

        > Like Joshua, I hope and pray that the cardinals will elect a pope who
        > agrees with me on everything, but none of us who are not in the running
        > are likely to have our prayer fully answered. Christ Jesus will continue
        > to strive to unite his body, whoever is elected, and if I am to
        > cooperate with Christ in that, I will have to honour the new pope as one
        > with whom I may disagree on all manner of things but with whom I am
        > united in Christ. If I refuse to be bound in the fellowship of love with
        > the new pope until he conforms to my personal standards of orthodoxy,
        > then it will be me that is thus cut off from the body of Christ, not him.

        I don't think that I will get a Pope who agrees with me on everything (I
        would want, for instance, for the Tridentine Mass to be made much more
        available, such as instituting at least one in every city, and probably a
        lot more than that); I just want one who will gladly defend Catholic
        teaching.

        Grace and agape,
        Joshua

        We have been greatly blessed to have a leader such as His Holiness John Paul
        II; pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the college of cardinals in
        election of the next Bishop of Rome.
      • Nathan Nettleton
        ... If that is the case, then surely you have no need to fear the possibility of a heretic being elected pope. All those who are eligible to be elected pope
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 3 11:40 PM
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          Joshua Gonnerman wrote:

          >Of course, this is the way with Protestants; there, every man is his own
          >Pope. We Catholics have only one, and dissent is not an option in our
          >tradition.
          >
          If that is the case, then surely you have no need to fear the
          possibility of a heretic being elected pope. All those who are eligible
          to be elected pope are Roman Catholics, and therefore there will be no
          danger of them dissenting from the truth as revealed in the Roman
          Catholic church.

          And of course, following the same principle, if the man elected pope
          does, by your standards, turn out to be a heretic, then since dissent is
          not an option for you, you will immediately conclude that it is in fact
          you who are the heretic and you will repent and embrace the new
          revelation of truth emerging from the new one and only authoritative pope.

          And if Iam misconstruing your position there, then I suspect I have done
          so no more dismissively than you have misconstrued the patterns of
          authority practiced among us protestant catholics.

          Anyway this is getting off-topic, and veering dangerously towards
          ungracious polemics, so I'll shut up and let you have the last word.

          Peace and hope,

          Nathan
          ______________________________________
          Nathan Nettleton
          Pastor, South Yarra Community Baptist Church
          Melbourne, Australia
          nathan@...
          _____________________________________
        • The Gonnermans
          I already said that I have said my last words on this subject, so I will not respond. Grace and agape, Joshua We have been greatly blessed to have a leader
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 3 11:43 PM
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            I already said that I have said my last words on this subject, so I will not
            respond.

            Grace and agape,
            Joshua

            We have been greatly blessed to have a leader such as His Holiness John Paul
            II; pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the college of cardinals in
            election of the next Bishop of Rome.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Nathan Nettleton" <nathan@...>
            To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:40 AM
            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies


            >
            > Joshua Gonnerman wrote:
            >
            > >Of course, this is the way with Protestants; there, every man is his own
            > >Pope. We Catholics have only one, and dissent is not an option in our
            > >tradition.
            > >
            > If that is the case, then surely you have no need to fear the
            > possibility of a heretic being elected pope. All those who are eligible
            > to be elected pope are Roman Catholics, and therefore there will be no
            > danger of them dissenting from the truth as revealed in the Roman
            > Catholic church.
            >
            > And of course, following the same principle, if the man elected pope
            > does, by your standards, turn out to be a heretic, then since dissent is
            > not an option for you, you will immediately conclude that it is in fact
            > you who are the heretic and you will repent and embrace the new
            > revelation of truth emerging from the new one and only authoritative pope.
            >
            > And if Iam misconstruing your position there, then I suspect I have done
            > so no more dismissively than you have misconstrued the patterns of
            > authority practiced among us protestant catholics.
            >
            > Anyway this is getting off-topic, and veering dangerously towards
            > ungracious polemics, so I'll shut up and let you have the last word.
            >
            > Peace and hope,
            >
            > Nathan
            > ______________________________________
            > Nathan Nettleton
            > Pastor, South Yarra Community Baptist Church
            > Melbourne, Australia
            > nathan@...
            > _____________________________________
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
            write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
            send an email to:
            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • The Gonnermans
            Actually, one more thought: I apologize for the every man is his own Pope comment; it was uncalled for. I just tend to get defensive when under attack or
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 3 11:45 PM
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              Actually, one more thought: I apologize for the "every man is his own Pope"
              comment; it was uncalled for. I just tend to get defensive when under
              attack or taken to task; I apologize.

              Grace and agape,
              Joshua

              We have been greatly blessed to have a leader such as His Holiness John Paul
              II; pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the college of cardinals in
              election of the next Bishop of Rome.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Nathan Nettleton" <nathan@...>
              To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 10:40 AM
              Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies


              >
              > Joshua Gonnerman wrote:
              >
              > >Of course, this is the way with Protestants; there, every man is his own
              > >Pope. We Catholics have only one, and dissent is not an option in our
              > >tradition.
              > >
              > If that is the case, then surely you have no need to fear the
              > possibility of a heretic being elected pope. All those who are eligible
              > to be elected pope are Roman Catholics, and therefore there will be no
              > danger of them dissenting from the truth as revealed in the Roman
              > Catholic church.
              >
              > And of course, following the same principle, if the man elected pope
              > does, by your standards, turn out to be a heretic, then since dissent is
              > not an option for you, you will immediately conclude that it is in fact
              > you who are the heretic and you will repent and embrace the new
              > revelation of truth emerging from the new one and only authoritative pope.
              >
              > And if Iam misconstruing your position there, then I suspect I have done
              > so no more dismissively than you have misconstrued the patterns of
              > authority practiced among us protestant catholics.
              >
              > Anyway this is getting off-topic, and veering dangerously towards
              > ungracious polemics, so I'll shut up and let you have the last word.
              >
              > Peace and hope,
              >
              > Nathan
              > ______________________________________
              > Nathan Nettleton
              > Pastor, South Yarra Community Baptist Church
              > Melbourne, Australia
              > nathan@...
              > _____________________________________
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
              write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
              send an email to:
              > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Michael Joe Thannisch
              The word fundamentalist has been greatly abused. I suspect that most of us on this list are fundamentalists in the true meaning of the word, that we believe
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 4 4:05 AM
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                The word fundamentalist has been greatly abused. I suspect that most of us
                on this list are fundamentalists in the true meaning of the word, that we
                believe in the fundamentals (foundations) of the faith, i.e.we are
                orthodox. Most of the modern US press is uncomfortable with anyone who is
                truly orthodox and lives out their faith.

                Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach

                Michael Joe Thannisch+, SST, OSL
                mjthan@...

                The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Matthew Weber" <mweber@...>
                To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:11 AM
                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies


                >
                > At 1:12 PM +1000 4/4/05, Nathan Nettleton wrote:
                >>When asked whether he though there was a chance of a heretic being
                >>elected pope,
                >>Joshua Gonnerman wrote:
                >>
                >>>It's not something that could be entirely ruled out; there's always the
                >>>possibility they might elect someone in favour of artificial
                >>>contraception,
                >>>or ordaining women, or even abortion or remarriage after divorce.
                >>>
                >>I know that these issues are often spoken of with creedal type fervour,
                >>but unless I've missed a change in recent decades, none of them even
                >>rate a mention in the ecumenical creeds that have been our traditional
                >>yardsticks of orthodoxy. To me, Joshua's comments read like a classic
                >>example of the way in which we all, however traditional and orthodox we
                >>might think we are, tend to unconsciously compose our own creeds. Our
                >>own creeds usually focus on issues of current debate, and people on both
                >>sides tend to operate as though their own convictions are undoubtedly
                >>what the Nicene fathers would have gone on to say if they hadn't run out
                >>of paper.
                >
                > Part of the confusion here, I think, is what our definition of
                > orthodoxy is, and what our definition of heresy is.
                >
                > The Roman church, to which Joshua belongs, holds dissent from its
                > dogma to be heretical. Of the four cases which Joshua mentions,
                > abortion and remarriage after divorce are seen by the RCC as
                > non-negotiable. Any Pope who opposed Roman Catholic teaching on
                > those issues would be, by the Church's definition, a heretic.
                >
                > I'm not sure whether the teachings on contraception and the
                > ordination of women are dogmas.
                >
                > And I suppose we all have our ideas of what constitutes orthodoxy. I
                > think subscription to the creeds is a good start, but I would also
                > add adherence to the seven Ecumenical Councils.
                >
                > Funnily enough, I realized the other day while doing some reading on
                > fundamentalism that I'm 80% fundamentalist. I part ways with them on
                > the inerrancy of the Bible (perhaps it's more accurate to say that I
                > disagree with them about how that inerrancy functions), but I'm right
                > with 'em on the other 4 points.
                > --
                > Matt
                >
                > All men have one entrance into life, and the like going out.
                > The Holy Bible (The Apocrypha) : The Wisdom of Solomon, 7:6
                >
                >
                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                > write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
                > send an email to:
                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • The Gonnermans
                My understanding is that it came from a pamphlet called Fundamentals of the Bible , which was about what in the tradition I grew up in was called the Roman
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 5 3:05 AM
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                  My understanding is that it came from a pamphlet called "Fundamentals of the
                  Bible", which was about what in the tradition I grew up in was called the
                  "Roman Road", i.e. you've sinned, Christ died for your sin, say the sinner's
                  prayer, you're saved. If that is correct, then I'd have to object to the
                  latter two.

                  Grace and agape,
                  Joshua

                  We have been greatly blessed to have a leader such as His Holiness John Paul
                  II; pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the college of cardinals in
                  election of the next Bishop of Rome.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Michael Joe Thannisch" <mjthan@...>
                  To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 3:05 PM
                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies


                  >
                  > The word fundamentalist has been greatly abused. I suspect that most of
                  us
                  > on this list are fundamentalists in the true meaning of the word, that we
                  > believe in the fundamentals (foundations) of the faith, i.e.we are
                  > orthodox. Most of the modern US press is uncomfortable with anyone who is
                  > truly orthodox and lives out their faith.
                  >
                  > Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach
                  >
                  > Michael Joe Thannisch+, SST, OSL
                  > mjthan@...
                  >
                  > The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Matthew Weber" <mweber@...>
                  > To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:11 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > At 1:12 PM +1000 4/4/05, Nathan Nettleton wrote:
                  > >>When asked whether he though there was a chance of a heretic being
                  > >>elected pope,
                  > >>Joshua Gonnerman wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>>It's not something that could be entirely ruled out; there's always the
                  > >>>possibility they might elect someone in favour of artificial
                  > >>>contraception,
                  > >>>or ordaining women, or even abortion or remarriage after divorce.
                  > >>>
                  > >>I know that these issues are often spoken of with creedal type fervour,
                  > >>but unless I've missed a change in recent decades, none of them even
                  > >>rate a mention in the ecumenical creeds that have been our traditional
                  > >>yardsticks of orthodoxy. To me, Joshua's comments read like a classic
                  > >>example of the way in which we all, however traditional and orthodox we
                  > >>might think we are, tend to unconsciously compose our own creeds. Our
                  > >>own creeds usually focus on issues of current debate, and people on both
                  > >>sides tend to operate as though their own convictions are undoubtedly
                  > >>what the Nicene fathers would have gone on to say if they hadn't run out
                  > >>of paper.
                  > >
                  > > Part of the confusion here, I think, is what our definition of
                  > > orthodoxy is, and what our definition of heresy is.
                  > >
                  > > The Roman church, to which Joshua belongs, holds dissent from its
                  > > dogma to be heretical. Of the four cases which Joshua mentions,
                  > > abortion and remarriage after divorce are seen by the RCC as
                  > > non-negotiable. Any Pope who opposed Roman Catholic teaching on
                  > > those issues would be, by the Church's definition, a heretic.
                  > >
                  > > I'm not sure whether the teachings on contraception and the
                  > > ordination of women are dogmas.
                  > >
                  > > And I suppose we all have our ideas of what constitutes orthodoxy. I
                  > > think subscription to the creeds is a good start, but I would also
                  > > add adherence to the seven Ecumenical Councils.
                  > >
                  > > Funnily enough, I realized the other day while doing some reading on
                  > > fundamentalism that I'm 80% fundamentalist. I part ways with them on
                  > > the inerrancy of the Bible (perhaps it's more accurate to say that I
                  > > disagree with them about how that inerrancy functions), but I'm right
                  > > with 'em on the other 4 points.
                  > > --
                  > > Matt
                  > >
                  > > All men have one entrance into life, and the like going out.
                  > > The Holy Bible (The Apocrypha) : The Wisdom of Solomon, 7:6
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                  > > write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                  > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
                  > > send an email to:
                  > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                  write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                  > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
                  send an email to:
                  > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Michael Joe Thannisch
                  ... From: The Gonnermans To: Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:05 AM Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 5 5:07 AM
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "The Gonnermans" <kingskid@...>
                    To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:05 AM
                    Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies


                    >
                    > My understanding is that it came from a pamphlet called "Fundamentals of
                    > the
                    > Bible", which was about what in the tradition I grew up in was called the
                    > "Roman Road", i.e. you've sinned, Christ died for your sin, say the
                    > sinner's
                    > prayer, you're saved. If that is correct, then I'd have to object to the
                    > latter two.
                    >
                    > Grace and agape,
                    > Joshua
                    >
                    > We have been greatly blessed to have a leader such as His Holiness John
                    > Paul
                    > II; pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the college of cardinals in
                    > election of the next Bishop of Rome.
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Michael Joe Thannisch" <mjthan@...>
                    > To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 3:05 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies
                    >
                    >
                    >>
                    >> The word fundamentalist has been greatly abused. I suspect that most of
                    > us
                    >> on this list are fundamentalists in the true meaning of the word, that we
                    >> believe in the fundamentals (foundations) of the faith, i.e.we are
                    >> orthodox. Most of the modern US press is uncomfortable with anyone who
                    >> is
                    >> truly orthodox and lives out their faith.
                    >>
                    >> Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach
                    >>
                    >> Michael Joe Thannisch+, SST, OSL
                    >> mjthan@...
                    >>
                    >> The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.
                    >>
                    >> ----- Original Message -----
                    >> From: "Matthew Weber" <mweber@...>
                    >> To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:11 AM
                    >> Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> >
                    >> > At 1:12 PM +1000 4/4/05, Nathan Nettleton wrote:
                    >> >>When asked whether he though there was a chance of a heretic being
                    >> >>elected pope,
                    >> >>Joshua Gonnerman wrote:
                    >> >>
                    >> >>>It's not something that could be entirely ruled out; there's always
                    >> >>>the
                    >> >>>possibility they might elect someone in favour of artificial
                    >> >>>contraception,
                    >> >>>or ordaining women, or even abortion or remarriage after divorce.
                    >> >>>
                    >> >>I know that these issues are often spoken of with creedal type fervour,
                    >> >>but unless I've missed a change in recent decades, none of them even
                    >> >>rate a mention in the ecumenical creeds that have been our traditional
                    >> >>yardsticks of orthodoxy. To me, Joshua's comments read like a classic
                    >> >>example of the way in which we all, however traditional and orthodox we
                    >> >>might think we are, tend to unconsciously compose our own creeds. Our
                    >> >>own creeds usually focus on issues of current debate, and people on
                    >> >>both
                    >> >>sides tend to operate as though their own convictions are undoubtedly
                    >> >>what the Nicene fathers would have gone on to say if they hadn't run
                    >> >>out
                    >> >>of paper.
                    >> >
                    >> > Part of the confusion here, I think, is what our definition of
                    >> > orthodoxy is, and what our definition of heresy is.
                    >> >
                    >> > The Roman church, to which Joshua belongs, holds dissent from its
                    >> > dogma to be heretical. Of the four cases which Joshua mentions,
                    >> > abortion and remarriage after divorce are seen by the RCC as
                    >> > non-negotiable. Any Pope who opposed Roman Catholic teaching on
                    >> > those issues would be, by the Church's definition, a heretic.
                    >> >
                    >> > I'm not sure whether the teachings on contraception and the
                    >> > ordination of women are dogmas.
                    >> >
                    >> > And I suppose we all have our ideas of what constitutes orthodoxy. I
                    >> > think subscription to the creeds is a good start, but I would also
                    >> > add adherence to the seven Ecumenical Councils.
                    >> >
                    >> > Funnily enough, I realized the other day while doing some reading on
                    >> > fundamentalism that I'm 80% fundamentalist. I part ways with them on
                    >> > the inerrancy of the Bible (perhaps it's more accurate to say that I
                    >> > disagree with them about how that inerrancy functions), but I'm right
                    >> > with 'em on the other 4 points.
                    >> > --
                    >> > Matt
                    >> >
                    >> > All men have one entrance into life, and the like going out.
                    >> > The Holy Bible (The Apocrypha) : The Wisdom of Solomon, 7:6
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                    >> > write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                    >> > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators,
                    >> > please
                    >> > send an email to:
                    >> > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                    >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                    > write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                    >> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
                    > send an email to:
                    >> liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                    > write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                    > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
                    > send an email to:
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                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Michael Joe Thannisch
                    I am not familiear with the pamphlet, but I do know the fundamentals of the English language (sorry, couldn t help that), but I do know that some precepts are
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 5 5:11 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I am not familiear with the pamphlet, but I do know the fundamentals of the
                      English language (sorry, couldn't help that), but I do know that some
                      precepts are applied in a shallow manner. Just as some groups do the
                      sinners prayer, and do nothing else, there are many liturgical Christians
                      who baptise and or confirm, and this is seen as the end.

                      Evangelicals know that the sinners prayer is only the beginning, that
                      conversion should be daily. Good Catholics, whether Roman or otherwise know
                      that conversion should be daily as well.

                      Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach

                      Michael Joe Thannisch+, SST, OSL
                      mjthan@...

                      The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "The Gonnermans" <kingskid@...>
                      To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                      > My understanding is that it came from a pamphlet called "Fundamentals of
                      > the
                      > Bible", which was about what in the tradition I grew up in was called the
                      > "Roman Road", i.e. you've sinned, Christ died for your sin, say the
                      > sinner's
                      > prayer, you're saved. If that is correct, then I'd have to object to the
                      > latter two.
                    • Frank Senn
                      It seems that most words get greatly abused over time. Fundamentalist in the Christian sense should refer to those who subscribe to the Five Fundamentals
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 5 6:35 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        It seems that most words get greatly abused over time. "Fundamentalist" in the Christian sense should refer to those who subscribe to the Five Fundamentals proposed in the early 20th century as a reaction to Liberal Protestantism, not just to anyone who seems to be "conservative." But meaning also comes to be defined by common use and it becomes an exercise in futility to try to recover an original and precise definition. For example, Lutherans are the world's first Protestants and Evangelicals. There are even Churches in Europe where such terms are synonymous with Lutheranism. But in much of the rest of the world, what is regarded as Protestant or Evangelical is not something most Lutherans are comfortable with. So one is left either dying the death of a thousand qualifications or simply giving up the use of the terms.

                        Frank C. Senn

                        Michael Joe Thannisch <mjthan@...> wrote:

                        The word fundamentalist has been greatly abused. I suspect that most of us
                        on this list are fundamentalists in the true meaning of the word, that we
                        believe in the fundamentals (foundations) of the faith, i.e.we are
                        orthodox. Most of the modern US press is uncomfortable with anyone who is
                        truly orthodox and lives out their faith.

                        Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach

                        Michael Joe Thannisch+, SST, OSL
                        mjthan@...

                        The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Matthew Weber"
                        To:

                        Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:11 AM
                        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies


                        >
                        > At 1:12 PM +1000 4/4/05, Nathan Nettleton wrote:
                        >>When asked whether he though there was a chance of a heretic being
                        >>elected pope,
                        >>Joshua Gonnerman wrote:
                        >>
                        >>>It's not something that could be entirely ruled out; there's always the
                        >>>possibility they might elect someone in favour of artificial
                        >>>contraception,
                        >>>or ordaining women, or even abortion or remarriage after divorce.
                        >>>
                        >>I know that these issues are often spoken of with creedal type fervour,
                        >>but unless I've missed a change in recent decades, none of them even
                        >>rate a mention in the ecumenical creeds that have been our traditional
                        >>yardsticks of orthodoxy. To me, Joshua's comments read like a classic
                        >>example of the way in which we all, however traditional and orthodox we
                        >>might think we are, tend to unconsciously compose our own creeds. Our
                        >>own creeds usually focus on issues of current debate, and people on both
                        >>sides tend to operate as though their own convictions are undoubtedly
                        >>what the Nicene fathers would have gone on to say if they hadn't run out
                        >>of paper.
                        >
                        > Part of the confusion here, I think, is what our definition of
                        > orthodoxy is, and what our definition of heresy is.
                        >
                        > The Roman church, to which Joshua belongs, holds dissent from its
                        > dogma to be heretical. Of the four cases which Joshua mentions,
                        > abortion and remarriage after divorce are seen by the RCC as
                        > non-negotiable. Any Pope who opposed Roman Catholic teaching on
                        > those issues would be, by the Church's definition, a heretic.
                        >
                        > I'm not sure whether the teachings on contraception and the
                        > ordination of women are dogmas.
                        >
                        > And I suppose we all have our ideas of what constitutes orthodoxy. I
                        > think subscription to the creeds is a good start, but I would also
                        > add adherence to the seven Ecumenical Councils.
                        >
                        > Funnily enough, I realized the other day while doing some reading on
                        > fundamentalism that I'm 80% fundamentalist. I part ways with them on
                        > the inerrancy of the Bible (perhaps it's more accurate to say that I
                        > disagree with them about how that inerrancy functions), but I'm right
                        > with 'em on the other 4 points.
                        > --
                        > Matt
                        >
                        > All men have one entrance into life, and the like going out.
                        > The Holy Bible (The Apocrypha) : The Wisdom of Solomon, 7:6
                        >
                        >
                        > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                        > write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                        > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
                        > send an email to:
                        > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Frank Senn
                        OK, let s get these fundamentals down. They came out of a series of heresy trials in the Presbyterian Church in the late nineteenth century and were adopted
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 5 6:50 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          OK, let's get these fundamentals down. They came out of a series of heresy trials in the Presbyterian Church in the late nineteenth century and were adopted by the General Assembly most definitively in 1910 as "essential and necessary doctrines" of the Church. The five findamentals are:

                          1. The inerrancy of Scripture
                          2. The Virgin Birth of Jesus
                          3. The Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement
                          4. The bodily resurrection of Jesus
                          5. The reliability of the miracles of Jesus.

                          These were explicated in a pamphlet called *The Fundamentals* of which millions of copies were distributed. Many other churches or individuals, ranging from Anglican to Baptist, signed on to them at the time. Strictly speaking, a fundamentalist is one who subscribes to these five points.

                          Frank C. Senn

                          Michael Joe Thannisch <mjthan@...> wrote:

                          I am not familiear with the pamphlet, but I do know the fundamentals of the
                          English language (sorry, couldn't help that), but I do know that some
                          precepts are applied in a shallow manner. Just as some groups do the
                          sinners prayer, and do nothing else, there are many liturgical Christians
                          who baptise and or confirm, and this is seen as the end.

                          Evangelicals know that the sinners prayer is only the beginning, that
                          conversion should be daily. Good Catholics, whether Roman or otherwise know
                          that conversion should be daily as well.

                          Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach

                          Michael Joe Thannisch+, SST, OSL
                          mjthan@...

                          The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "The Gonnermans"
                          To:

                          > My understanding is that it came from a pamphlet called "Fundamentals of
                          > the
                          > Bible", which was about what in the tradition I grew up in was called the
                          > "Roman Road", i.e. you've sinned, Christ died for your sin, say the
                          > sinner's
                          > prayer, you're saved. If that is correct, then I'd have to object to the
                          > latter two.



                          Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                          liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • The Gonnermans
                          What precisely is meant by the Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement . Looks like I was wrong about the Fundamentals. Grace and agape, Joshua We have been
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 5 10:51 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            What precisely is meant by the "Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement".

                            Looks like I was wrong about the Fundamentals.

                            Grace and agape,
                            Joshua

                            We have been greatly blessed to have a leader such as His Holiness John Paul
                            II; pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the college of cardinals in
                            election of the next Bishop of Rome.

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...>
                            To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:50 PM
                            Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies


                            >
                            > OK, let's get these fundamentals down. They came out of a series of
                            heresy trials in the Presbyterian Church in the late nineteenth century and
                            were adopted by the General Assembly most definitively in 1910 as "essential
                            and necessary doctrines" of the Church. The five findamentals are:
                            >
                            > 1. The inerrancy of Scripture
                            > 2. The Virgin Birth of Jesus
                            > 3. The Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement
                            > 4. The bodily resurrection of Jesus
                            > 5. The reliability of the miracles of Jesus.
                            >
                            > These were explicated in a pamphlet called *The Fundamentals* of which
                            millions of copies were distributed. Many other churches or individuals,
                            ranging from Anglican to Baptist, signed on to them at the time. Strictly
                            speaking, a fundamentalist is one who subscribes to these five points.
                            >
                            > Frank C. Senn
                            >
                            > Michael Joe Thannisch <mjthan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I am not familiear with the pamphlet, but I do know the fundamentals of
                            the
                            > English language (sorry, couldn't help that), but I do know that some
                            > precepts are applied in a shallow manner. Just as some groups do the
                            > sinners prayer, and do nothing else, there are many liturgical Christians
                            > who baptise and or confirm, and this is seen as the end.
                            >
                            > Evangelicals know that the sinners prayer is only the beginning, that
                            > conversion should be daily. Good Catholics, whether Roman or otherwise
                            know
                            > that conversion should be daily as well.
                            >
                            > Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach
                            >
                            > Michael Joe Thannisch+, SST, OSL
                            > mjthan@...
                            >
                            > The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "The Gonnermans"
                            > To:
                            >
                            > > My understanding is that it came from a pamphlet called "Fundamentals of
                            > > the
                            > > Bible", which was about what in the tradition I grew up in was called
                            the
                            > > "Roman Road", i.e. you've sinned, Christ died for your sin, say the
                            > > sinner's
                            > > prayer, you're saved. If that is correct, then I'd have to object to the
                            > > latter two.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                            write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
                            send an email to:
                            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                            write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
                            send an email to:
                            > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Matthew Weber
                            ... It s also called substitutionary atonement : i.e. that the death of Jesus on the cross was a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 5 12:33 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              At 09:51 PM 4/5/2005 +0400, you wrote:

                              >What precisely is meant by the "Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement".
                              >
                              >Looks like I was wrong about the Fundamentals.
                              >
                              >Grace and agape,
                              >Joshua

                              It's also called "substitutionary atonement" : i.e. that the death of Jesus
                              on the cross was "a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and
                              satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world" (as the 1928 BCP has it). I
                              suppose Karl Rahner might disagree, though. :)


                              Matthew Weber
                              Curatorial Assistant
                              Jean Gray Hargrove Music Library
                              University of California, Berkeley

                              Who can number the sand of the sea, and the drops of rain, and the days of
                              eternity?
                              The Holy Bible (The Apocrypha): The Wisdom of Jesus the Son of
                              Sirach, or Ecclesiasticus, 1:2
                            • Frank Senn
                              The satisfaction theory of the atonement was developed by Anselm of Canterbury, who taught that by his death on the cross Christ paid the penalty for sin by
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 5 5:52 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The "satisfaction" theory of the atonement was developed by Anselm of Canterbury, who taught that by his death on the cross Christ paid the penalty for sin by taking on himself the punishment sinners deserve. His obedient act "satisfies" the requirements of God's justice which requires punishment for sins.

                                This is close to but not identical with the "substitutionary" view of the atonement which holds that Christ is our substitute who placates the wrath of God against sinners. Since he is the eternal Son of God, his passion really shows the love of God triumphing over God's wrath. This is the classical Lutheran variation on the "satisfaction" theory of the atonement.

                                Frank C. Senn

                                The Gonnermans <kingskid@...> wrote:

                                What precisely is meant by the "Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement".

                                Looks like I was wrong about the Fundamentals.

                                Grace and agape,
                                Joshua

                                We have been greatly blessed to have a leader such as His Holiness John Paul
                                II; pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the college of cardinals in
                                election of the next Bishop of Rome.

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Frank Senn"
                                To:

                                Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:50 PM
                                Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies


                                >
                                > OK, let's get these fundamentals down. They came out of a series of
                                heresy trials in the Presbyterian Church in the late nineteenth century and
                                were adopted by the General Assembly most definitively in 1910 as "essential
                                and necessary doctrines" of the Church. The five findamentals are:
                                >
                                > 1. The inerrancy of Scripture
                                > 2. The Virgin Birth of Jesus
                                > 3. The Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement
                                > 4. The bodily resurrection of Jesus
                                > 5. The reliability of the miracles of Jesus.
                                >
                                > These were explicated in a pamphlet called *The Fundamentals* of which
                                millions of copies were distributed. Many other churches or individuals,
                                ranging from Anglican to Baptist, signed on to them at the time. Strictly
                                speaking, a fundamentalist is one who subscribes to these five points.
                                >
                                > Frank C. Senn
                                >
                                > Michael Joe Thannisch wrote:
                                >
                                > I am not familiear with the pamphlet, but I do know the fundamentals of
                                the
                                > English language (sorry, couldn't help that), but I do know that some
                                > precepts are applied in a shallow manner. Just as some groups do the
                                > sinners prayer, and do nothing else, there are many liturgical Christians
                                > who baptise and or confirm, and this is seen as the end.
                                >
                                > Evangelicals know that the sinners prayer is only the beginning, that
                                > conversion should be daily. Good Catholics, whether Roman or otherwise
                                know
                                > that conversion should be daily as well.
                                >
                                > Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach
                                >
                                > Michael Joe Thannisch+, SST, OSL
                                > mjthan@...
                                >
                                > The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "The Gonnermans"
                                > To:
                                >
                                > > My understanding is that it came from a pamphlet called "Fundamentals of
                                > > the
                                > > Bible", which was about what in the tradition I grew up in was called
                                the
                                > > "Roman Road", i.e. you've sinned, Christ died for your sin, say the
                                > > sinner's
                                > > prayer, you're saved. If that is correct, then I'd have to object to the
                                > > latter two.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                                write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
                                send an email to:
                                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                                write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
                                send an email to:
                                > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >




                                Visit the liturgy-l homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                                liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • The Gonnermans
                                Thanks for clarifying that. :-) Grace and agape, Joshua We have been greatly blessed to have a leader such as His Holiness John Paul II; pray that the Holy
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 5 8:16 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks for clarifying that. :-)

                                  Grace and agape,
                                  Joshua

                                  We have been greatly blessed to have a leader such as His Holiness John Paul
                                  II; pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the college of cardinals in
                                  election of the next Bishop of Rome.
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Frank Senn" <fcsenn@...>
                                  To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 4:52 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies


                                  >
                                  > The "satisfaction" theory of the atonement was developed by Anselm of
                                  Canterbury, who taught that by his death on the cross Christ paid the
                                  penalty for sin by taking on himself the punishment sinners deserve. His
                                  obedient act "satisfies" the requirements of God's justice which requires
                                  punishment for sins.
                                  >
                                  > This is close to but not identical with the "substitutionary" view of the
                                  atonement which holds that Christ is our substitute who placates the wrath
                                  of God against sinners. Since he is the eternal Son of God, his passion
                                  really shows the love of God triumphing over God's wrath. This is the
                                  classical Lutheran variation on the "satisfaction" theory of the atonement.
                                  >
                                  > Frank C. Senn
                                  >
                                  > The Gonnermans <kingskid@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > What precisely is meant by the "Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement".
                                  >
                                  > Looks like I was wrong about the Fundamentals.
                                  >
                                  > Grace and agape,
                                  > Joshua
                                  >
                                  > We have been greatly blessed to have a leader such as His Holiness John
                                  Paul
                                  > II; pray that the Holy Spirit will guide the college of cardinals in
                                  > election of the next Bishop of Rome.
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "Frank Senn"
                                  > To:
                                  >
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:50 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Favorite heresies
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > OK, let's get these fundamentals down. They came out of a series of
                                  > heresy trials in the Presbyterian Church in the late nineteenth century
                                  and
                                  > were adopted by the General Assembly most definitively in 1910 as
                                  "essential
                                  > and necessary doctrines" of the Church. The five findamentals are:
                                  > >
                                  > > 1. The inerrancy of Scripture
                                  > > 2. The Virgin Birth of Jesus
                                  > > 3. The Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement
                                  > > 4. The bodily resurrection of Jesus
                                  > > 5. The reliability of the miracles of Jesus.
                                  > >
                                  > > These were explicated in a pamphlet called *The Fundamentals* of which
                                  > millions of copies were distributed. Many other churches or individuals,
                                  > ranging from Anglican to Baptist, signed on to them at the time. Strictly
                                  > speaking, a fundamentalist is one who subscribes to these five points.
                                  > >
                                  > > Frank C. Senn
                                  > >
                                  > > Michael Joe Thannisch wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I am not familiear with the pamphlet, but I do know the fundamentals of
                                  > the
                                  > > English language (sorry, couldn't help that), but I do know that some
                                  > > precepts are applied in a shallow manner. Just as some groups do the
                                  > > sinners prayer, and do nothing else, there are many liturgical
                                  Christians
                                  > > who baptise and or confirm, and this is seen as the end.
                                  > >
                                  > > Evangelicals know that the sinners prayer is only the beginning, that
                                  > > conversion should be daily. Good Catholics, whether Roman or otherwise
                                  > know
                                  > > that conversion should be daily as well.
                                  > >
                                  > > Shalom B'Yeshua HaMoshiach
                                  > >
                                  > > Michael Joe Thannisch+, SST, OSL
                                  > > mjthan@...
                                  > >
                                  > > The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: "The Gonnermans"
                                  > > To:
                                  > >
                                  > > > My understanding is that it came from a pamphlet called "Fundamentals
                                  of
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > Bible", which was about what in the tradition I grew up in was called
                                  > the
                                  > > > "Roman Road", i.e. you've sinned, Christ died for your sin, say the
                                  > > > sinner's
                                  > > > prayer, you're saved. If that is correct, then I'd have to object to
                                  the
                                  > > > latter two.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liturgy-l/To
                                  > write to the owners/moderators, please send an email to:
                                  > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.comTo write to the owners/moderators, please
                                  > send an email to:
                                  > > liturgy-l-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Visit the liturgy-l homepage at
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                                • asteresplanetai
                                  ... just because it s an opportune moment, i will point out that basically the eastern church never subscribed to either of these theories. Well, maybe one
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 6 12:59 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    +++

                                    > From: Frank Senn <fcsenn@...>
                                    >
                                    > The "satisfaction" theory of the atonement was developed by Anselm of
                                    > Canterbury, who taught that by his death on the cross Christ paid the
                                    > penalty for sin by taking on himself the punishment sinners deserve.
                                    > His obedient act "satisfies" the requirements of God's justice which
                                    > requires punishment for sins.
                                    >
                                    > This is close to but not identical with the "substitutionary" view of
                                    > the atonement which holds that Christ is our substitute who placates
                                    > the wrath of God against sinners. Since he is the eternal Son of God,
                                    > his passion really shows the love of God triumphing over God's wrath.
                                    > This is the classical Lutheran variation on the "satisfaction" theory
                                    > of the atonement.

                                    just because it's an opportune moment, i will point out that basically
                                    the eastern church never subscribed to either of these theories. Well,
                                    maybe one should qualify that a smidgen, but in essence, it's true. We
                                    have always preferred to see the incarnation-death-resurrection of
                                    Christ as having to do with a necessary *healing* of nature, rather
                                    than in juridical terms; we consider the juridical terms to be
                                    secondary; a forensic substitutionary atonement seems to base itself on
                                    a legal fiction (and inasmuch as it's a fiction, an untruth); and
                                    theories that make god into a nazi who demands the death of someone
                                    (his own son!) in order to satisfy his sense of personal outrage or
                                    because of some inexorable, implacable, abstract "justice" seem to be
                                    most questionable at best.

                                    it probably has to do with the augustinian legacy that these theories
                                    have become popular, but augustine was never that big in the east.

                                    regards,

                                    johnburnett.
                                  • Frank Senn
                                    Gustav Aulen, in *Christus Victor,* held that an older view of the atonement (he called it the classic view, and it was a view that was probably more
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 6 4:06 PM
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                                      Gustav Aulen, in *Christus Victor,* held that an older view of the atonement (he called it the "classic" view, and it was a view that was probably more congenial to the East) was Christ rising in triumph over the powers of sin, death, and the devil. This view was associated with Irenaeus of Lyons and Athanasius. Aulen points out the passages in Luther's writings in which the reformer also seemed to subscribe to this classic view. The Norwegian theologian, Carl Wisloff, disagreed with Aulen and showed texts in which Luther expressed the substitutionary view. One is hard pressed, however, to find Anselm's "satisfaction" theory in Luther even though one can find it in the Reformed tradition.

                                      Frank C. Senn

                                      asteresplanetai <asteresplanetai@...> wrote:

                                      +++

                                      > From: Frank Senn
                                      >
                                      > The "satisfaction" theory of the atonement was developed by Anselm of
                                      > Canterbury, who taught that by his death on the cross Christ paid the
                                      > penalty for sin by taking on himself the punishment sinners deserve.
                                      > His obedient act "satisfies" the requirements of God's justice which
                                      > requires punishment for sins.
                                      >
                                      > This is close to but not identical with the "substitutionary" view of
                                      > the atonement which holds that Christ is our substitute who placates
                                      > the wrath of God against sinners. Since he is the eternal Son of God,
                                      > his passion really shows the love of God triumphing over God's wrath.
                                      > This is the classical Lutheran variation on the "satisfaction" theory
                                      > of the atonement.

                                      just because it's an opportune moment, i will point out that basically
                                      the eastern church never subscribed to either of these theories. Well,
                                      maybe one should qualify that a smidgen, but in essence, it's true. We
                                      have always preferred to see the incarnation-death-resurrection of
                                      Christ as having to do with a necessary *healing* of nature, rather
                                      than in juridical terms; we consider the juridical terms to be
                                      secondary; a forensic substitutionary atonement seems to base itself on
                                      a legal fiction (and inasmuch as it's a fiction, an untruth); and
                                      theories that make god into a nazi who demands the death of someone
                                      (his own son!) in order to satisfy his sense of personal outrage or
                                      because of some inexorable, implacable, abstract "justice" seem to be
                                      most questionable at best.

                                      it probably has to do with the augustinian legacy that these theories
                                      have become popular, but augustine was never that big in the east.

                                      regards,

                                      johnburnett.





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