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Re: [liturgy-l] Threads for a quiet Sunday

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  • Nathan Nettleton
    Although I m from one of those congregations that dropped the Aug 6 celebration of Transfiguration in favour of the lectionary-led last Sunday of Epiphany, I
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 6, 2000
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      Although I'm from one of those congregations that dropped the Aug 6
      celebration of Transfiguration in favour of the lectionary-led last
      Sunday of Epiphany, I do love the Collect written by Janet Morley that
      picks up the juxtaposition of Transfiguration with the anniversary of
      the bombing of Hiroshima:

      Christ, our only true light,
      before whose bright cloud
      your friends fell to the ground:
      we bow before your cross
      that we may remember in our bodies
      the dead who fell like shadows;
      and that we may refuse to be prostrated
      before the false brightness of any other light,
      looking to your power alone
      for hope of resurrection from the dead.
      Amen.

      (Janet Morley, All Desires Known, London:SPCK 1992, p.28.)

      Peace and hope,

      Nathan

      _____________________________________
      Nathan Nettleton
      Pastor, South Yarra Community Baptist Church
      Melbourne, Australia
      mailto:nathan@...
      _____________________________________
    • JohnSchuster-Craig@mail.clayton.edu
      Don t these feasts serve different functions, one in the Temporale, one in the Sanctorale? The Transfiguration gospel has a long history either on the Sunday
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 9, 2000
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        Don't these feasts serve different functions, one in the Temporale, one in
        the Sanctorale? The Transfiguration gospel has a long history either on the
        Sunday before Lent, or on Lent II (my recollection is that this was a
        difference between Northern and Southern pre-reformation lectionaries).
        "Doing both" it seems has a long history.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Scott Knitter [mailto:knitter@...]
        Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 9:06 PM
        To: liturgy-l@egroups.com
        Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Threads for a quiet Sunday


        At 8:30 PM +0000 8/6/00, John Dornheim wrote:
        >SOme of us still celebrate the Transfiguration in midwinter as the
        >culmination of the Epiphany season and precursor for Lent.

        The BCP 1979 apparently does both. I guess I'd like us to focus on
        August 6 and not pretend on the last Sunday of Epiphany that we're
        not going to do this in August. :)
      • Steve Benner
        ... The feast was placed on August 6 by Pope Callistus III to commemorate the victory over the Turks by G. Hunyady and St. John Capistrano in 1456, requiring
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 9, 2000
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          At 10:45 AM 8/9/00 -0400, you wrote:
          >Don't these feasts serve different functions, one in the Temporale, one in
          >the Sanctorale? The Transfiguration gospel has a long history either on the
          >Sunday before Lent, or on Lent II (my recollection is that this was a
          >difference between Northern and Southern pre-reformation lectionaries).
          >"Doing both" it seems has a long history.

          The feast was placed on August 6 by Pope Callistus III to commemorate the
          victory over the Turks by G. Hunyady and St. John Capistrano in 1456,
          requiring the Transfiguration to be observed on this day. (Butler's Lives
          of the Saints, III, 269).

          Butler also indicates the Byzantine Church had this feast on August 6
          before the year 1000. He cites the Synaxarium, ed. Delehaye, p. 897, and
          Nilles, Kalendarium Manuale, I, 235-8.

          I think most RCs, especially those who used the old missal, saw this as the
          primary feast of the Transfiguration--it just provided the gospel for Lent
          II as well. What became the RCL followed the Lutheran practice of the
          Transfiguration on Last Epiphany--making it a bigger festival than is
          perhaps appropriate. (I'm of two minds on this one, however.)

          Steve Benner
        • Robert J. Riley
          Steve Benner writes, in the Original Message below: I think most RCs, especially those who used the old missal, saw this as the primary feast of the
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 11, 2000
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            Steve Benner writes, in the Original Message below:

            "I think most RCs, especially those who used the old missal, saw this as the
            primary feast of the Transfiguration--it just provided the gospel for Lent
            II as well."

            Question: Is it possible that (historically) the use of Matthew 17:1-9a in
            the Mass for the Second Sunday in Lent predated its use in the Mass for
            August 6?

            Steve continues: "What became the RCL followed the Lutheran practice of the
            Transfiguration on Last Epiphany . . . "

            And JohnSchuster-Craig says (as quoted in Original Message): "The
            Transfiguration gospel has a long history either on the Sunday before Lent,
            or on Lent II (my recollection is that this was a difference between
            Northern and Southern pre-reformation lectionaries)."

            A request for more information: I am interested in knowing more about
            Lutheran or other practice of reading a Transfiguration gospel on the Sunday
            before Lent, prior to the adoption of the Common Lectionary circa 1970. How
            old is this practice? The first I became acquainted with it was in the
            eucharistic lectionary found in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer (ECUSA).

            Thank you!

            Sincerely,
            Robert J. Riley
            mailto:rriley@...


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Steve Benner [mailto:rupertchina@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 10:09 AM
            To: liturgy-l@egroups.com
            Subject: [liturgy-l] Transfiguration


            At 10:45 AM 8/9/00 -0400, you wrote:
            >Don't these feasts serve different functions, one in the Temporale, one in
            >the Sanctorale? The Transfiguration gospel has a long history either on
            the
            >Sunday before Lent, or on Lent II (my recollection is that this was a
            >difference between Northern and Southern pre-reformation lectionaries).
            >"Doing both" it seems has a long history.

            The feast was placed on August 6 by Pope Callistus III to commemorate the
            victory over the Turks by G. Hunyady and St. John Capistrano in 1456,
            requiring the Transfiguration to be observed on this day. (Butler's Lives
            of the Saints, III, 269).

            Butler also indicates the Byzantine Church had this feast on August 6
            before the year 1000. He cites the Synaxarium, ed. Delehaye, p. 897, and
            Nilles, Kalendarium Manuale, I, 235-8.

            I think most RCs, especially those who used the old missal, saw this as the
            primary feast of the Transfiguration--it just provided the gospel for Lent
            II as well. What became the RCL followed the Lutheran practice of the
            Transfiguration on Last Epiphany--making it a bigger festival than is
            perhaps appropriate. (I'm of two minds on this one, however.)

            Steve Benner

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            liturgy-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com
          • JohnSchuster-Craig@mail.clayton.edu
            ... From: Robert J. Riley [mailto:rriley@kc.rr.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 11:43 PM To: liturgy-l@egroups.com Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Transfiguration
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 12, 2000
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              -----Original Message-----
              From: Robert J. Riley [mailto:rriley@...]
              Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 11:43 PM
              To: liturgy-l@egroups.com
              Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Transfiguration


              Steve Benner writes, in the Original Message below:

              "I think most RCs, especially those who used the old missal, saw this as the
              primary feast of the Transfiguration--it just provided the gospel for Lent
              II as well."

              Question: Is it possible that (historically) the use of Matthew 17:1-9a in
              the Mass for the Second Sunday in Lent predated its use in the Mass for
              August 6?

              [John Schuster-Craig] -- The question here would be, "When did this Sunday
              acquire a celebration and propers?" It was for some time a "vacant" Sunday,
              without a celebration, due to the Embertide ordinations the day (evening?)
              before.

              And JohnSchuster-Craig says (as quoted in Original Message): "The
              Transfiguration gospel has a long history either on the Sunday before Lent,
              or on Lent II (my recollection is that this was a difference between
              Northern and Southern pre-reformation lectionaries)."

              [John Schuster-Craig] -- Let me check on this; I believe what I am recalling
              was in the Prayer Book Studies volume that accompanied the first version of
              ECUSA's revised lectionary (the so-called "Green Book").


              A request for more information: I am interested in knowing more about
              Lutheran or other practice of reading a Transfiguration gospel on the Sunday
              before Lent, prior to the adoption of the Common Lectionary circa 1970. How
              old is this practice? The first I became acquainted with it was in the
              eucharistic lectionary found in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer (ECUSA).

              Thank you!

              Sincerely,
              Robert J. Riley
              mailto:rriley@...


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Steve Benner [mailto:rupertchina@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 10:09 AM
              To: liturgy-l@egroups.com
              Subject: [liturgy-l] Transfiguration


              At 10:45 AM 8/9/00 -0400, you wrote:
              >Don't these feasts serve different functions, one in the Temporale, one in
              >the Sanctorale? The Transfiguration gospel has a long history either on
              the
              >Sunday before Lent, or on Lent II (my recollection is that this was a
              >difference between Northern and Southern pre-reformation lectionaries).
              >"Doing both" it seems has a long history.

              The feast was placed on August 6 by Pope Callistus III to commemorate the
              victory over the Turks by G. Hunyady and St. John Capistrano in 1456,
              requiring the Transfiguration to be observed on this day. (Butler's Lives
              of the Saints, III, 269).

              Butler also indicates the Byzantine Church had this feast on August 6
              before the year 1000. He cites the Synaxarium, ed. Delehaye, p. 897, and
              Nilles, Kalendarium Manuale, I, 235-8.

              I think most RCs, especially those who used the old missal, saw this as the
              primary feast of the Transfiguration--it just provided the gospel for Lent
              II as well. What became the RCL followed the Lutheran practice of the
              Transfiguration on Last Epiphany--making it a bigger festival than is
              perhaps appropriate. (I'm of two minds on this one, however.)

              Steve Benner

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            • Robert J. Riley
              In the Original Message below, I ask, Is it possible that (historically) the use of Matthew 17:1-9a in the Mass for the Second Sunday in Lent predated its use
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 12, 2000
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                In the Original Message below, I ask, "Is it possible that (historically)
                the use of Matthew 17:1-9a in the Mass for the Second Sunday in Lent
                predated its use in the Mass for August 6?" And John Schuster-Craig
                replies, "The question here would be, 'When did this Sunday acquire a
                celebration and propers?' It was for some time a 'vacant' Sunday, without a
                celebration, due to the Embertide ordinations the day (evening?) before."

                Good point. Pius Parsch speaks of the liturgy of the Second Sunday of Lent
                as a "summary or a kind of appendix to the Ember days," and in his
                discussion of the station church, St. Mary in Dominica, refers to the Mass
                (Reminiscere) as "of a more recent origin." He says St. Mary in Dominica is
                "one of the newer edifices." That's a clue. Vol. 2, pp. 136-7. Liturgical
                Press, 1953.

                Sincerely,
                Robert J. Riley
                mailto:rriley@...

                -----Original Message-----
                From: JohnSchuster-Craig@...
                [mailto:JohnSchuster-Craig@...]
                Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 11:18 AM
                To: liturgy-l@egroups.com
                Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Transfiguration




                -----Original Message-----
                From: Robert J. Riley [mailto:rriley@...]
                Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 11:43 PM
                To: liturgy-l@egroups.com
                Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Transfiguration


                Steve Benner writes, in the Original Message below:

                "I think most RCs, especially those who used the old missal, saw this as the
                primary feast of the Transfiguration--it just provided the gospel for Lent
                II as well."

                Question: Is it possible that (historically) the use of Matthew 17:1-9a in
                the Mass for the Second Sunday in Lent predated its use in the Mass for
                August 6?

                [John Schuster-Craig] -- The question here would be, "When did this Sunday
                acquire a celebration and propers?" It was for some time a "vacant" Sunday,
                without a celebration, due to the Embertide ordinations the day (evening?)
                before.

                And JohnSchuster-Craig says (as quoted in Original Message): "The
                Transfiguration gospel has a long history either on the Sunday before Lent,
                or on Lent II (my recollection is that this was a difference between
                Northern and Southern pre-reformation lectionaries)."

                [John Schuster-Craig] -- Let me check on this; I believe what I am recalling
                was in the Prayer Book Studies volume that accompanied the first version of
                ECUSA's revised lectionary (the so-called "Green Book").


                A request for more information: I am interested in knowing more about
                Lutheran or other practice of reading a Transfiguration gospel on the Sunday
                before Lent, prior to the adoption of the Common Lectionary circa 1970. How
                old is this practice? The first I became acquainted with it was in the
                eucharistic lectionary found in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer (ECUSA).

                Thank you!

                Sincerely,
                Robert J. Riley
                mailto:rriley@...


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Steve Benner [mailto:rupertchina@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 10:09 AM
                To: liturgy-l@egroups.com
                Subject: [liturgy-l] Transfiguration


                At 10:45 AM 8/9/00 -0400, you wrote:
                >Don't these feasts serve different functions, one in the Temporale, one in
                >the Sanctorale? The Transfiguration gospel has a long history either on
                the
                >Sunday before Lent, or on Lent II (my recollection is that this was a
                >difference between Northern and Southern pre-reformation lectionaries).
                >"Doing both" it seems has a long history.

                The feast was placed on August 6 by Pope Callistus III to commemorate the
                victory over the Turks by G. Hunyady and St. John Capistrano in 1456,
                requiring the Transfiguration to be observed on this day. (Butler's Lives
                of the Saints, III, 269).

                Butler also indicates the Byzantine Church had this feast on August 6
                before the year 1000. He cites the Synaxarium, ed. Delehaye, p. 897, and
                Nilles, Kalendarium Manuale, I, 235-8.

                I think most RCs, especially those who used the old missal, saw this as the
                primary feast of the Transfiguration--it just provided the gospel for Lent
                II as well. What became the RCL followed the Lutheran practice of the
                Transfiguration on Last Epiphany--making it a bigger festival than is
                perhaps appropriate. (I'm of two minds on this one, however.)

                Steve Benner

                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                liturgy-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com




                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              • JohnSchuster-Craig@mail.clayton.edu
                ... From: John Schuster-Craig Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 12:18 PM To: liturgy-l@egroups.com Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Transfiguration ... From: Robert J.
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 13, 2000
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                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: John Schuster-Craig
                  Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 12:18 PM
                  To: 'liturgy-l@egroups.com'
                  Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Transfiguration




                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Robert J. Riley [mailto:rriley@...]
                  Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 11:43 PM
                  To: liturgy-l@egroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [liturgy-l] Transfiguration



                  And JohnSchuster-Craig says (as quoted in Original Message): "The
                  Transfiguration gospel has a long history either on the Sunday before Lent,
                  or on Lent II (my recollection is that this was a difference between
                  Northern and Southern pre-reformation lectionaries)."

                  [John Schuster-Craig] -- Let me check on this; I believe what I am recalling
                  was in the Prayer Book Studies volume that accompanied the first version of
                  ECUSA's revised lectionary (the so-called "Green Book").


                  A request for more information: I am interested in knowing more about
                  Lutheran or other practice of reading a Transfiguration gospel on the Sunday
                  before Lent, prior to the adoption of the Common Lectionary circa 1970. How
                  old is this practice? The first I became acquainted with it was in the
                  eucharistic lectionary found in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer (ECUSA).


                  [John Schuster-Craig, again]: I've been unable to locate my copy of the
                  commentary which accompanied the "Green Book" lectionary (in which the
                  Transfiguration gospel was first appointed for the Last Sunday After
                  Epiphany - 1971). I don't think I made up the bit about pre-Reformation
                  lectionaries, but I can't confirm at this time.
                  I find the titles for this Sunday in various lectionaries of interest:
                  ECUSA -- The Last Sunday after Epiphany
                  ELCA -- The Transfiguration (subtitle -- Last Sunday after Epiphany)
                  C of E (Common Worship) -- Sunday Next Before Lent

                  And on a related note, for the parish planning to worship with the
                  Lutherans: you'll find an interesting lectionary complication -- depending
                  on the date of Easter, the Episcopal lectionary runs a couple of weeks ahead
                  (I believe) of the Lutheran; on the Sundays after Pentecost, the readings
                  are rarely read on the same date.

                  Thank you!

                  Sincerely,
                  Robert J. Riley
                  mailto:rriley@...


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Steve Benner [mailto:rupertchina@...]
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 10:09 AM
                  To: liturgy-l@egroups.com
                  Subject: [liturgy-l] Transfiguration


                  At 10:45 AM 8/9/00 -0400, you wrote:
                  >Don't these feasts serve different functions, one in the Temporale, one in
                  >the Sanctorale? The Transfiguration gospel has a long history either on
                  the
                  >Sunday before Lent, or on Lent II (my recollection is that this was a
                  >difference between Northern and Southern pre-reformation lectionaries).
                  >"Doing both" it seems has a long history.

                  The feast was placed on August 6 by Pope Callistus III to commemorate the
                  victory over the Turks by G. Hunyady and St. John Capistrano in 1456,
                  requiring the Transfiguration to be observed on this day. (Butler's Lives
                  of the Saints, III, 269).

                  Butler also indicates the Byzantine Church had this feast on August 6
                  before the year 1000. He cites the Synaxarium, ed. Delehaye, p. 897, and
                  Nilles, Kalendarium Manuale, I, 235-8.

                  I think most RCs, especially those who used the old missal, saw this as the
                  primary feast of the Transfiguration--it just provided the gospel for Lent
                  II as well. What became the RCL followed the Lutheran practice of the
                  Transfiguration on Last Epiphany--making it a bigger festival than is
                  perhaps appropriate. (I'm of two minds on this one, however.)

                  Steve Benner

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  liturgy-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com




                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  liturgy-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                • Ormonde Plater
                  ... Sunday ... How ... Prayer book Studies 19: The Church Year (1970) has a footnote on the proposed scheme of devoting the Last Sunday after the Epiphany to
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 13, 2000
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                    > A request for more information: I am interested in knowing more about
                    > Lutheran or other practice of reading a Transfiguration gospel on the
                    Sunday
                    > before Lent, prior to the adoption of the Common Lectionary circa 1970.
                    How
                    > old is this practice? The first I became acquainted with it was in the
                    > eucharistic lectionary found in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer (ECUSA).

                    Prayer book Studies 19: The Church Year (1970) has a footnote on the
                    proposed scheme of devoting the Last Sunday after the Epiphany to the
                    Transfiguration (in addition to August 6): "The Roman lectionary continues
                    to observe the Transfiguration on 2 Lent . . . But the new Lutheran liturgy
                    supports our scheme of observing the Transfiguration on the Sunday before
                    Lent; cf. Service Book and Hymnal of the Lutheran church in America (1958),
                    p. 82." (p. 26, n. 15)

                    Ormonde Plater
                    oplater@...
                  • fcsenn@aol.com
                    In a message dated 8/13/00 3:00:49 PM Central Daylight Time, JohnSchuster-Craig@mail.clayton.edu writes:
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 14, 2000
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                      In a message dated 8/13/00 3:00:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
                      JohnSchuster-Craig@... writes:

                      <<
                      A request for more information: I am interested in knowing more about
                      Lutheran or other practice of reading a Transfiguration gospel on the Sunday
                      before Lent, prior to the adoption of the Common Lectionary circa 1970. How
                      old is this practice? The first I became acquainted with it was in the
                      eucharistic lectionary found in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer (ECUSA).
                      >>

                      The transfiguration gospel was read during the Sundays after the
                      Epiphany---if there were enough of them---in calendars and lectionaries
                      embraced in the 16th century Lutheran church orders. That means that it
                      belonged to the late medieval pericope system continued in the Lutheran
                      churches. Lutherans seldom changed the pericopes they received, especially
                      those for Sundays and festivals of our Lord. If a feast day was
                      questionable, they simply omitted it from their calendars. Since the actual
                      Feast of Transfiguration on August 6 is relatively late in the calendar, the
                      transfiguration as an epiphany-event is probably older than the Feast itself,
                      which, in any event, Lutherans also retained in their calendars. Even today
                      August 6 could be celebrated. But I think it does make more sense to
                      emphasize it as a glimpse of the resurrection before the church settles into
                      Lent.

                      FCSenn
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