Re: [liturgy-l] Pastors
- Excellent description. One should also remember the German was not uniform,
for example mädchen, mädlein, and mädl, all are words for maiden, but
reflecting differnet Geographic areas. Also among the Norwegian Lutherans,
language was interesting. Three fjords distance was the furthest that one
could understand until the invention of Nigorsk (s´p?) at the beginning of
the 20th century.
I also find the references to Herr Pastor and Pfarrer interesting, as I have
never heard the word used by anyone I have spoken to in Deutsch. Does this
reflect a modern shift in the German language, or a change in understanding.
Shalom in Yeshua Ha Moshiach
Michael Joe Thannisch
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pastors
> In a message dated 10/2/2003 10:00:06 AM Central Standard Time,
> thomas@... writes:
> > >My understanding is that while both Roman Catholics and Protestants
> > >in Germany used "Pfarrer" to refer to clergymen, Lutherans tended
> > >to use "Herr Pastor."
> > Are you aware of their being any ideological undercurrents to this
> > choice? If so, do you know what they would have been?
> In Germany titles tend to be local preference. I have heard Lutheran
> referred to as "Herr Pfarrer" and also "Herr Pastor." Sometimes titles
> changed to distinguish Lutherans from Catholics. So some Lutheran
> were called "Superintendent" instead of "Bishop" (same concept). However,
> among Lutherans you could find both titles in use. Remember that when
> with Germany, ecclesiology was always a mess---before, during, and after
> Reformation. In part, it may seem like a mess because we think today of
> "Germany." Before 1870, there was no such thing. "German" was a language
> culture rather than a political entity. Even the Germany that emerged
> Hohenzollerns was not all of "Germania." It did not include, for example,
> Hapsburg lands. There was no "United Lutheran Church" or even an
> Kirche" before the 20th century. The Landeskirchen were completely
> territorial. E.g. The Church of Saxony, the Church of Brandenburg, the
> Hannover, etc. Some free cities had their own church independent of the
> Landeskirche. E.g. the Church of Strassburg, the Church of Hamburg, the
> Lubeck, etc. Why were there all these German-langauge Lutheran synods in
> the 19th century? Because the millions of German Lutheran immigrants came
> from different churchees, even different countries. What did Prussia,
> or Bavaria have to do with each other? Very little other than a common
> language and, for Lutherans, a common confession. Hence the Buffalo
> Missouri Synod, the Ohio Synod, etc. And each did have some unique
> views. That's why the process of bringing Lutherans together has been so
> laborious. And this is just the Germans!
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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- In a message dated 10/5/03 3:20:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
One of my parishioners, an immigrant from Germany, calls me "Herr Pharrer"
wwhen addressing me in German.
>>And, undoubtedly, your wife [if you are married] as "Frau Herr Pharrer."
When I lived in Frankfurt/Main, we sent patients to the U. Frankfurt for
x-ray therapy for skin cancers. Everything was channeled through the
Professor and Department Chairman. Unless our US Army receptionist
making the appointment referred to him as "Herr Doktor Professor Hermann,"
the receptionist at U. Frankfurt would refuse to make the appointment.
Professor Hermann's wife was properly called
"Frau Herr Doktor Professor Hermann."