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Re: [liturgy-l] Pastors

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  • Michael Joe Thannisch
    Excellent description. One should also remember the German was not uniform, for example mädchen, mädlein, and mädl, all are words for maiden, but
    Message 1 of 71 , Oct 2, 2003
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      Excellent description. One should also remember the German was not uniform,
      for example mädchen, mädlein, and mädl, all are words for maiden, but
      reflecting differnet Geographic areas. Also among the Norwegian Lutherans,
      language was interesting. Three fjords distance was the furthest that one
      could understand until the invention of Nigorsk (s´p?) at the beginning of
      the 20th century.

      I also find the references to Herr Pastor and Pfarrer interesting, as I have
      never heard the word used by anyone I have spoken to in Deutsch. Does this
      reflect a modern shift in the German language, or a change in understanding.

      Shalom in Yeshua Ha Moshiach

      Michael Joe Thannisch
      mjthan@...
      http://episcopalanglicanresources.com
      www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/4120/
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <fcsenn@...>
      To: <liturgy-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 10:16 AM
      Subject: Re: [liturgy-l] Pastors


      > In a message dated 10/2/2003 10:00:06 AM Central Standard Time,
      > thomas@... writes:
      >
      > >
      > > >My understanding is that while both Roman Catholics and Protestants
      > > >in Germany used "Pfarrer" to refer to clergymen, Lutherans tended
      > > >to use "Herr Pastor."
      > >
      > >
      > > Are you aware of their being any ideological undercurrents to this
      > > choice? If so, do you know what they would have been?
      > >
      > >
      >
      > In Germany titles tend to be local preference. I have heard Lutheran
      pastors
      > referred to as "Herr Pfarrer" and also "Herr Pastor." Sometimes titles
      were
      > changed to distinguish Lutherans from Catholics. So some Lutheran
      "overseers"
      > were called "Superintendent" instead of "Bishop" (same concept). However,
      > among Lutherans you could find both titles in use. Remember that when
      dealing
      > with Germany, ecclesiology was always a mess---before, during, and after
      the
      > Reformation. In part, it may seem like a mess because we think today of
      > "Germany." Before 1870, there was no such thing. "German" was a language
      and
      > culture rather than a political entity. Even the Germany that emerged
      under the
      > Hohenzollerns was not all of "Germania." It did not include, for example,
      the
      > Hapsburg lands. There was no "United Lutheran Church" or even an
      "Evangelische
      > Kirche" before the 20th century. The Landeskirchen were completely
      > territorial. E.g. The Church of Saxony, the Church of Brandenburg, the
      Church of
      > Hannover, etc. Some free cities had their own church independent of the
      > Landeskirche. E.g. the Church of Strassburg, the Church of Hamburg, the
      Church of
      > Lubeck, etc. Why were there all these German-langauge Lutheran synods in
      America in
      > the 19th century? Because the millions of German Lutheran immigrants came
      > from different churchees, even different countries. What did Prussia,
      Saxony,
      > or Bavaria have to do with each other? Very little other than a common
      > language and, for Lutherans, a common confession. Hence the Buffalo
      Synod, the
      > Missouri Synod, the Ohio Synod, etc. And each did have some unique
      traditions and
      > views. That's why the process of bringing Lutherans together has been so
      > laborious. And this is just the Germans!
      >
      > FCsenn
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
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    • cantor03@aol.com
      In a message dated 10/5/03 3:20:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, przip@compuserve.com writes:
      Message 71 of 71 , Oct 5, 2003
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        In a message dated 10/5/03 3:20:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
        przip@... writes:

        <<
        One of my parishioners, an immigrant from Germany, calls me "Herr Pharrer"
        wwhen addressing me in German.
        >>

        And, undoubtedly, your wife [if you are married] as "Frau Herr Pharrer."

        When I lived in Frankfurt/Main, we sent patients to the U. Frankfurt for
        x-ray therapy for skin cancers. Everything was channeled through the
        Professor and Department Chairman. Unless our US Army receptionist
        making the appointment referred to him as "Herr Doktor Professor Hermann,"
        the receptionist at U. Frankfurt would refuse to make the appointment.

        Professor Hermann's wife was properly called
        "Frau Herr Doktor Professor Hermann."

        David Strang.
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